When Your Guild Hits A Wall
by David Nelson 
Aug 11th 2006 at 11:30AM
My guild has been trying the C'Thun encounter for nearly 4 weeks. We can clear all the other AQ40 bosses with little effort, but C'Thun still eludes us. For me personally, this is not a big deal. Our guild is what I would call hardcore-lite, as we only raid four nights a week and have loose attendance requirements. Honestly, I am pleased we got this far. And who cares if we wipe? A night of wiping in WoW is better than a night of working or mowing the lawn, right?However, a lot of my guildies, especially those who joined after we got BWL on farm status, are starting to complain, no-show, etc. People are mysteriously losing connection, having family emergencies or are just not signing up. People are happy to show up for the BWL farm session on Wednesday, and for the nights we clear to C'Thun, but the C'Thun nights are becoming an entirely different story. We don't want to institute punishments or start dangling carrots, but we are quickly running out of options. We are going to try a new "No BWL Runs Until C'Thun Is Beaten" policy next week, so hopefully that motivates some folks.
Don't people want to be there for the first kill? Or is it more exciting to run the same bosses again and again with no challenge, just the slot machine aspect of maybe getting loot? I am quickly beginning to see the advantages of a more hardcore guild with more rigid requirements.
Filed under: Analysis / Opinion, Guilds, Instances
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 1)
The Chort Aug 11th 2006 11:41AM
The best thing to do on this is to mixed its up, for example you can only attend bwl if you were in the cthun raid and so forth. Thats what my guild did and we're currently on patchwork at the moment.
A_B Aug 11th 2006 12:11PM
"And who cares if we wipe? A night of wiping in WoW is better than a night of working or mowing the lawn, right? ...
Don't people want to be there for the first kill? Or is it more exciting to run the same bosses again and again with no challenge, just the slot machine aspect of maybe getting loot?"
Your post doesn't reveal any deep inner truths about you and you're probably half-joking, so don't take this personally, but if it did and you're serious, you sound like a crazy person.
I mean, are those really the only three things you can come up with to do at night? In an earlier post, you said you were married. Is wiping _again_, better than hanging out with her? Reading a book? Going to a movie? Etc., etc.
Can you really not see how banging your head against the wall, wiping, over and over again, wouldn't be as much fun as picking up some easy loot and then getting on with other things?
I don't know how long you have had WoW, but you mentioned that you have 120 days. Others have admitted to more. In ten years, are people going to look back at this time with pride or regret?
Andy Aug 11th 2006 12:12PM
My guild has had a similar problem as of late. Currently, we can clear all of ZG easily (except for Jin'do), and we have gotten to Rag in MC once (so we can clear most of MC easily, too). We haven't really tried AQ20 much yet (haven't really gone beyond the first boss).
Currently, the MC raids are very popular, the ZG raids are pretty popular, and very few people want to go to the AQ20 raids. I've gotten the same feeling from my guild as you have from yours - people would rather go on the "easy" raids which are guaranteed to give them DKP/loot, rather than try the new (to us) stuff that does not have that guarantee.
We had a similar issue back when we were learning MC, but once we got better at it the MC raids magically became popular.
We have just started trying to figure out the best way to handle the situation. We are not a hardcore guild in that we don't have strict attendence requirements, and that isn't something that we want to impose. It might be worth looking into "you must go to AQ20 before MC" or some such, though.
elizabeth Aug 11th 2006 12:16PM
This is actually a problem for all sorts of guilds, regardless of how hardcore they might be. Some people just aren't in for the wipes, the repair bills, etc - but they'll be happy to come back once you're regularly farming C'thun...!
David Nelson Aug 11th 2006 12:20PM
"In ten years, are people going to look back at this time with pride or regret? "
Don't think that hasn't crossed my mind a few times. It certainly has. In ten years I don't plan on telling my children about the glorious night we downed C'Thun.
However, I don't really remember the night I got my Tier 2 belt, but I remember the night we finally downed Vael. I just find the first kills more exciting than the loot. I think the process of learning the new encounters are fun. I also think I may be in the minority. :)
J Aug 11th 2006 12:29PM
Wiping continously on a particular boss encounter is indeed very frustrating, time consuming, and expensive (repair/consumable bill).
So, a lot of people don't want to do it. They don't want to invest the time, because it gets boring...spending 6+ hours for zero loot and a 50-100g bill is pretty damn unrewarding.
Most guilds, including mine, have this problem. When we were working on Rag, we could hardly get sign-ups. Now that Ragnaros is on farm status, we have 50+. We are currently working on trying to down Nef, and again, it's tough to get a consistent 40 to show. I'm sure when BWL is on a single-night farm status, we'll again have 50+ sign-ups.
In my opinion, this is one of the massive fundamental mistakes Blizzard has made in their end-game content. NO OTHER video game I have ever played has taken as much time as WoW has to beat particular aspects of the game. I'm very much obsessed with beating the damn game, so I'm one of the few that doesn't mind pounding my head against a wall over and over 'till we complete it. However, I admit, at times - I wonder if it's all worth it, and lean on the edge of burn-out.
As Blizzard has informed us, some of this is being corrected in the expansion. 20-30 new instances, 95% of them 5 and 10-man. Only what, 2 40-mans, or 1 40-man with a "Onyxia-like" quick 40-man encounter?
The expansion will rock. We'll finally be getting away from these gigantic time syncs known as "learning the encounter".
Give me some new Dire Maul's, Strats, Scholos. What a refreshing delight that will be. Just me and a few of my close on-line buddies tackling major content in a tight group, being able to shoot the breeze during downtime (health/mana regen, etc.) on TS, rather than hear the all-encompassing "CLEAR THE CHANNEL NO MORE TALKING" stuff.
It will be glorious.
Oggin Aug 11th 2006 1:04PM
You might want to do some more detailed looking at who is not showing up and/or bailing on you and call them out. It’s easy to slip away when you think no one is noticing. But the first time you tell someone publicly that they can’t come on a raid this time be they have been unreliable lately. Unreliable does not mean you can’t log on due to real life issues, it means you say you will be there but fail to show/stay.
You may have to change their motivation to get them to participate.
I have been on several raids with different guilds where you see certain players not playing when you need them.
Look at their gear.
- Are they specced out so much that they don’t need anything in that raid. I have seen some players not show up for raids since there is nothing in it for them? I call these folks jerks
- Are they lacking in gear and/or have neither the DKP or luck at rolling that they are frustrated that they feel the have no chance to get anything in a raid except a repair bill?
- Are you only letting the defense specced warrior, the healing priest and healing druid get all the gear? The Shadow priests, Feral druids and DKP warriors want loot too.
Another tactic I saw that works very well is to let non guildies go on the raid and keep them the whole raid. These non guildies are potential recruits or friends that want to help you out. We had a real tough time in ZG with the Blood Lord until I asked a very good friend to show us her guilds method. After that the Blood Lord went on farm status. When a guildie wants to play but the raid is full, they will have to wait till a spot open up. You tell them if they showed on time or were more reliable then they would have a spot, but the raid could not wait for them.
Mordiceius Aug 11th 2006 1:23PM
My guild went through this for a while once. A bit before Naxxramus opened we hit our summer lull and when we used to run dual MC raids at once, all of the sudden, we could only get 30 to show up for one. Now we're back and cleaning up in BWL every week and we even get the server first for horde side in Naxxramus. We've finally recruited the right people and get all the people together that want to go in and fight the fights and clear the content to help pave the way for themselves and the rest of the guild.
A Aug 11th 2006 1:24PM
Raids 4 nights a week? Rigid requirements? Okay, if you're willing to put up with all of that.
Let's remember one things, folks: IT'S A GAME
This is why I have left on guild and not participating in raids in another. I have a life outside of WoW.
Troy Aug 11th 2006 3:00PM
The guild I am in was having the same problems a few months ago. So now the instance we are raiding each night is not set. So it is at the guild leaders direction which instance we are attending that night. So some weeks we clear BWL on Tuesdays, then spend the rest of the week working on AQ40 or Naxx. Other weeks we don't do BWL until Friday or Staurday.
Each night its a surprise where we are going, it definitely keeps things interesting.
Pougen (ER) Aug 11th 2006 3:11PM
It's simple, really - provided you use DKP and people want the loot. Instead of punishing those who don't want to go, reward those who do. Double the DKP for the hard instances that you are having trouble filling slots for.
Amid Aug 11th 2006 5:25PM
Your DKP system is wrong. BWL bosses need to be 1dpk each, but C'thun attempts need to be 10-20. This ensures dkp goes to the people who deserve and need it most -- those trying to advance the guild. The people who skip c'thun will eventually not have dkp to spend while the people who do show up will be getting better gear.
Nos Aug 11th 2006 5:44PM
In ten years I don't plan on telling my children about the glorious night we downed C'Thun.
LOL my 3 yr old daughter lives for Bedtime Stories about the tales of Cappy (my first lvl 60 char a warrior on Lothar). She begs for them. I tell her about Cappy and his friends clearing out the deadmines and finding a huge Pirate Ship at the bottom of an old gold mine. (she loves pirates)
I've told her about the time Cappy beat Doan and Herod in the Scarlet Monestary. I make up stories about his childhood in Westfall and she eats it all up like candy. In fact my wife gets mad because my daughter only wants me to put her to bed.