Death & Taxes on the Raid Size Change
by Elizabeth Harper 
Aug 14th 2006 at 10:00AM
If you've visited the forums at all, you know many players are unhappy with change in raid size we'll be seeing in the expansion. Suddenly, guilds that are the appropriate size and composition to regularly field 40-player raids are being told that the next wave of end-game content will only need 25 players. So they're faced with a choice - either leave 15 players behind, and trim down for smaller raid content, or add to their ranks and be prepared to organize two raiding groups. Well-known raiding guild Death and Taxes has their own thoughts on the change (though be warned, it uses some harsh language, to say the least). So what's a hard-core guild to do when the raiding game is changed out from under them? Well, I imagine we'll
[Thanks Dave]
Filed under: Analysis / Opinion, Instances, Expansions
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
Carlo Zottmann Aug 14th 2006 10:22AM
In regards to the "Raiding guilds were designed around 40 people, plain and simple. It's been that way for 2 years, and to change it now is so ridiculously shortsighted." argument:
Boohoo.
There are a lot of guilds who have a maximum of 25 members, and I venture the guess that most guilds have way less than 40 players, so thumbs up to Blizzard for recognizing that.
And I believe that one of the next content patches will bring more 40-man raid instances, so I'd very much like them to stop complaining about being treated unfair.
Just my 2c.
Michael Aug 14th 2006 11:02AM
I have to agree with #1 above.
Blizzard isn't killing the raids thay already have. They are instead making it possible for a larger percentage of organized groups to raid, by adding what(in my not so humble opinion) should have been availble from the beginning. That being smaller raid instances.
But hey that is just my 2c sobetween us we have 4c.
Brian Aug 14th 2006 11:16AM
A simpe economics lesson to DnT and other hardcore raiding guilds:
A vast majority of WoW players are casuals, NOT hardcore raiders. Blizzard wants to please the majority in this expansion by making it easier to participate in endgame content. DnT complains that this will mean that casuals may be the first to down new bosses and it will be hard for raiding guilds to split up their core group. Well, they'll just have to adjust. Raiding guilds make up a VERY SMALL segment of players, and Blizzard would much rather please the majority of casual players than reenforce the paradigm that only raiding guilds can get the good gear. This new raid cap is a huge help to casual players and smaller guilds who have trouble organizing a 40 man raid. There might still be hope for DnT though, if they hold on to the whaaambulance long enough, new dungeons in BC after the initial wave may cater to 40 man raids
IE_Armand Aug 14th 2006 11:17AM
I have to agree. As always the larger guilds will shout and complain (and possibly throw their toys out their Epic Pram) because of something that does not suit them.
They should get over it and be greatful...WoW is kept alive by the Casual (or softcore) players, without us WoW is dead in the water. Hence Blizzard are doing everything they can with the expansion to keep us casual players playing with this expansion...when was the last time a 5/10 man instance was introduced?!?!? Exactly...large raid guilds have had it all their own way for too long...this might actaully give us smaller less organized guild a chance to see content we are also paying for!!
Coanunn Aug 14th 2006 11:25AM
I'm sorry.. but yes there are HARD CORE raiding guilds, but honestly who needs a 40 man level 73 Dungeon in the expansion? It will be at least 2 weeks to a month after before anyone is level 70 and even then you need 40 people that level to run it.
That being said I am a guild leader too, I have people who get left behind, they can now run all the new 5, 10, 20 and 25 man content when they are left out of the big runs. There was already too much of the "end game" locked into 40 man groups, it required turning the game into a full time job as a guild leader to organize that many people to be there on time for the runs. Now we have more options to run with who ever does show up.
Plus this opens end game content to smaller guilds.
Blackjack21 Aug 14th 2006 11:26AM
QQ DnT. Not all of live in basements with 14 hours a day free time to stroke epics in the dark.
Peter Aug 14th 2006 11:29AM
I think this change is based on the recently published statistics that 37.5% of people in "hard-core raiding guilds" need to get out and get lives!
:P
Coanunn Aug 14th 2006 11:31AM
Ahem.. and Adendum as I see the posts pouring in..
Small guilds and casual gamers are great but why the hell do they seem to think they are the majority? I have seen FAR more people in raiding alliances and raid guilds since actually achieving 60. There is a VERY large community of people raiding. Yes there are currently several 40 man instances but that does not mean there should not be new ones either.
Folks, they introduced the tier .5 set for people who dont' want to raid but want the better gear. Now we have a land slide of 5, 10, 20, 25 man content coming, why not appreciate what is coming rather than talking about how you deserve it more than they do?
jpc Aug 14th 2006 11:36AM
lawl @ y'all's responses. I have to agree. I mean, what does DnT do for aq20 and zg? QQ? My guild already splits ony up into 2x20 to get 2x the loot. I imagine something similar will happen for 25man raids... Unless... Does DnT has *exactly* 40 players? lol
Argent Aug 14th 2006 11:49AM
well, if raid size is all that matters, i gotta wonder why more people aren't farming AQ20.
right now, you can have a raiding guild with some people who have a fairly casual attendance record. it's a bit of a hassle on the raid leaders, but you can make due. after BC, every raiding guild will be just the top raiders and anyone who doesn't have fantastic attendance simply won't have a prayer to keep up with gear and thus will be left behind -- which, as the guy in DnT pointed out, is just a fine way to screw some of your friends.
the scaling difficulty thing might mean smaller guilds can run raid content and get some highlevel blues and maybe a few epics, but that likely won't mean much to most current raiding guilds, who will simply use goldfarmer mode to learn some fights and then flip over to regular strength to rack up all the epics they want and need.
in the end, the chasm between raiding guilds and casual guilds will only get much more pronounced by all this.
voltroy Aug 14th 2006 11:55AM
You guys realize this is end game content. Do you think the casual guilds of today can just lvl up to 70 and start doing end game content? Just because it’s dropped down to 25 man doesn’t mean it’s easy. The fact of the mater is the guilds that are doing end game content now will be the ones that do end game content in BC. If your casual guild can’t do end game now why would it be able to in BC? Why would it want to? What if they still take 4hrs per raid night? Will you invest the time then to farm pots and repair bill gold that you can’t do now? Will you magically be able to “l2p” and clear end game bosses you can’t clear now? If what you want is easier end game content then the gear better be crap compared to the gear I’m getting now for all my hard work in naxx. I don’t care if it is new end game. Instances have always progressed from easy to hard. Gear has always gone from crap to amazing. If the new end game 25 man instances follow this (they should they are end game) then casual players will not be able to get past the first pull and end game guilds now will be benching and dealing with guild drama. No one wins.
Kang Aug 14th 2006 12:04PM
I imagine we'll what?
Gill Aug 14th 2006 12:56PM
Let me just say "thank you" to Blizzard to finally address that us casuals want to enjoy the end-game content too without having to go through so much trouble that goes with a 40-man raid.
And to the hardcore raiding guilds that are crying. Boo-f'n-hoo! Now you know how it feels to be on the other side. It's about that damn time. And if you're guild can't split into two smaller groups, y'all need better organizational skills.
IEArmand Aug 14th 2006 1:17PM
Quote:
Small guilds and casual gamers are great but why the hell do they seem to think they are the majority?
Hmmm..let me see..6million+ and the majority are hardcore...Dont think so!!!
Kaylos Aug 14th 2006 1:28PM
Wow guys. Way to totally miss the point. No where does he say its not fair casuals can get gear. No where does he say its a bad idea. What it really comes down to this is a rule change in the middle of the game. It has nothing to do to making end game moire accessible to casual guilds. If you understood how end game guilds work, you would know that casual raiders regularly spend more time raiding than hardcore raiders. hardcore raiders spend a lot of time when an encounter is new, but once its on farm status, they clear it quickly, leaving a lot more time for out of game stuff or other in game stuff. I have been in a casual 40 man raiding guild before, and they tend to ahve a lot more turn over, as those that want to be in a more hardcore group move on and you are constatnly having to regear up new players and take a ton longer on old encounters that should be easy. My current guild can clear MC/BWL on one night. AQ40 another night. We are concentrating on Naxx now, but before Naxx, that meant most of the week off.
IMO it will be better for the game in the end, but it some cases it will feel less epic. I do think 25 man raids will be easier to control and are probably going to be a lot of fun. But I understand the feeling, because many guild will suddenly be cutting players. Those that don't are going to have serious drama issues too and will break up to a more efficient size.
The problem is, who do you cut? Do you say, hey man, you are a good raider, usually here when we need you and a very good player. However, I am afraid we are going to ahve to let you go or you will be sitting for most raids. This is going to affect a lot of more casual 40 man raiders too, though I imagine it will be easier with them to tell the new guys sorry.
I don't think its a bad move, but it is kind of sad that eventually we are going to see opur guild break-up.
Rip Aug 14th 2006 1:47PM
All the guilds are gonna break up? Because some people have to sit out? Thats ridiculous. I think they should just increase raid size and just start a rotation depending on gear setup and necessities.
James Aug 14th 2006 1:51PM
I think what would be cool is to add more BOE epic items, so hardcore raiding guilds can sell off the Naxx/BC epics to the casual players through the AH, and leave the best gear for BoP. I don't see why not? I think it would be a good idea.
Truth Aug 14th 2006 2:32PM
Sometimes I think some people don't get it. Blizzard is on the verge of losing a lot of people. It is hard and a lot of frustrating work to run a 40 man raid. WHO CARES IF THE HARD CORE have to change? They are only 5-10% of the population of the server anyways. Really for casual guilds this is great. It is much easier to find 2 sets of 25 people with similar playing times than finding 1 set of 40. Our guild has problems with having people all over the world. Really I am glad Blizzard is finally getting a clue. WoW is a casual MMO. If you don't like it, get out!
Poormojo Aug 14th 2006 2:32PM
Look, the game is always changing. Complaining that this is a big change to the way things have been doesn't hold water as an argument. Every time a class gets "balanced" things change. When they introduced the honor system, things changed. Everytime a new instance gets introduced, things change.
The dungeons will be scalable. You can choose normal or hard now. This means that the hardcore players who desire a challenge can run it on hard.
All this does is make endgame content available to many more people. It takes nothing at all away from established guilds or from raiders. Raiders can quite clearly run this content just like everyone else. It goes a long way to erasing the line between raider and non-raider.
I can't help but look back at the past year of updates, and at Molten Core, BWL, ZG, AQ and Naxx and feel like maybe it's time the non-raiders got some instance love. if you propose the .5 armor set was a good thing for us non-raiders, then you'll be happy to raid MC over and over again for your 3.5 set, right?
Yes, guilds will need to field different teams and adapt. But isn't that part of the fun? Learning the new systems and new instances? If you have a 40-man guild right now (and who only has 40? when I *was* in a raiding guild we had 90 level 60s that would raid), then you can run eight 5-man instances and compete with each other. You can run four 10-mans.
This is an opportunity for everyone to play the game together, and to learn the new content together. How can that be a bad thing?
Adam Aug 14th 2006 3:45PM
I am glad for the change in raid size. It will make end game content so much more accessible. Half of the battle is learning the bosses, the other half is getting 40 seperate people organized and thinking on the same page. With 25 it's a lot easier to actually get going. And more people does not equal more difficulty. The smaller the raid, the more importance each individual has on the raid's success so technically I think smaller raids could be MORE difficult.