Is There Too Much Honor in Crossrealm BGs?
by Mike Schramm 
Sep 6th 2006 at 8:56PM
Since my Shaman hit the big six-oh, I've found myself checking more and more into the BGs, especially Alterac Valley (where we picked up a hardwon victory late last night, with the help of a gigantic Ice Lord). And from everything I've seen, they're as much of a hit as everyone first said they were-- queues are almost nonexistent, there's always lots of people around to play, and quality of play in there is-- well, it's not entirely terrible. Sometimes. But at least the honor and rep flows quickly.In fact, that's exactly the problem Luriah has over on Detheroc. He hates the new cross realm battlegrounds, not because he isn't getting more honor-- he is-- but because he isn't getting better ranks for it. This past week, he reports, he picked up three times the honor he had the previous week, but his rank rose by barely half of one. Because of that, he says the honor system is actually worse.
Now, technically the point is moot because the expansion will bring a complete revamp of the honor system, and ranks as we know them are going bye-bye. And I'm not one to stand up and defend the honor system as it is now-- any way you look at it, it's a grind. Players who spend way too much time in the battlegrounds will get the highest ranks, period, and I think Blizzard should be rewarding skill in battle, not necessarily the time investment.
But I don't think Luriah's argument holds much water. The new honor system isn't worse-- it's the same, with more players (namely me-- this last week, I played more than I ever have). More time in the BGs means everyone has more honor. Blizzard didn't ruin anything if you can't get ranks-- they just made the gameplay better, so competition is more fierce. Is that good news if you're trying to reach HWL or GM before the expansion hits? Nope. But it is good news for those of us who were tired of spending more time in the queue than the BG itself.
Filed under: Analysis / Opinion, Ranking, Blizzard, PvP, Expansions
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
Delphian Sep 6th 2006 9:50PM
I think your article misses the real point of whats going on with the Honor system. The time Investment to rank up has gone up ten fold now to gain ranks. I dont mean just High ranks either I mean all ranks. I for one would not argue against a competitive system, but who has more time on thier hands isnt competitive it ludacrist. Some people like myself have a job and family nad prior to xserver BGS were still able to get into higher ranks..I am rank 12 atm. Now however even going to rank 9 to get your blue PVP set is out of reach for most people because of the time investment.
I am Not against Xserver BGS, My problem and many others if you read the WOW General Boards is Blizzard failed to make adjustments to the system to make up for the mass influx of players causing this problem. Im all for new players joining and battles going on Instantly all the time. What I am NOT for is sitting in front of my PC all day not and nite because if I dont I cant gain any rank.
Your article also Misses On Honor farmers who now have 24/7 access to BGS. Before Xserver all servers had a down time, now however that is gone and Honor famers again cause the time sink to raise for the legit players.
In the end Im not saying xserver is bad at all I thnk its great, But blizzard even before the expansion needs to make the proper adjustments to the system so that its fair and consistent.
Delphian Level 60 NE Hunter
Eldre'Thalas
Delphian Sep 12th 2006 1:42PM
I think your article misses the real point of whats going on with the Honor system. The time Investment to rank up has gone up ten fold now to gain ranks. I dont mean just High ranks either I mean all ranks. I for one would not argue against a competitive system, but who has more time on thier hands isnt competitive it ludacrist. Some people like myself have a job and family nad prior to xserver BGS were still able to get into higher ranks..I am rank 12 atm. Now however even going to rank 9 to get your blue PVP set is out of reach for most people because of the time investment.
I am Not against Xserver BGS, My problem and many others if you read the WOW General Boards is Blizzard failed to make adjustments to the system to make up for the mass influx of players causing this problem. Im all for new players joining and battles going on Instantly all the time. What I am NOT for is sitting in front of my PC all day not and nite because if I dont I cant gain any rank.
Your article also Misses On Honor farmers who now have 24/7 access to BGS. Before Xserver all servers had a down time, now however that is gone and Honor famers again cause the time sink to raise for the legit players.
In the end Im not saying xserver is bad at all I thnk its great, But blizzard even before the expansion needs to make the proper adjustments to the system so that its fair and consistent.
Delphian Level 60 NE Hunter
Eldre'Thalas
gill Sep 6th 2006 10:25PM
I would agree with AV honor being too easy to get at this point. I'm only level 59 but I'm only 6K away from being exalted with Stormpike. I started Pvping in AV at lvl 51 and I could not believe how much honor and rep I get going into a single AV match.
Llaiya Sep 6th 2006 11:49PM
You forgot to mention the realms that have 100+ games of AB and WSG going, and 50+ games of AV; but yet still have over a 20 min queue time (more for AV usually) to get into a BG. An even longer wait than it was pre-patch. So if you need more honor to gain ranks now, its a definite gg.
cannibull Sep 6th 2006 11:58PM
Don't know about your server, but on Stormscale, since the patch has been working properly, I've never had to wait more than one or two minutes to get into any BG.
synack Sep 7th 2006 12:18AM
Chances are the people complaining about the high queue times with XBG are Alliance players. It's well known that the faction imbalance averages 2 Alliance to every 1 Horde. If there are only 40 Horde for every 80 Alliance, of course you're going to have to wait 20-30 minutes for the next AV to come up. It's simply numbers.
Once the Horde has pretty little elves come the expansion, hopefully the population will even out closer to 1 to 1. You know we all want to play elves. Pointy ears!
twh Sep 7th 2006 1:13AM
I agree with the first post:
You miss the biggest flaw in the system that the Honor Farmers have made in virtually impossible for legit players that have real life responsibilities to gain in rank.
For exmaple:
Last week, I did as much as i could and got 120k in Honor. I thought, "Cool, another week like this, I should be hitting rank 10. Easy."
But lo and behold... not only did I not progress as far as I would have liked... but it was negligable to the point where I wondered if I should have even bothered if all the time I spent there was being overshadowed by the Bots and Honor Famers. I will never be able to finish my first PvP set as long as this farce of a system exists with these creeps ruining it for the rest of us.
Coanunn Sep 7th 2006 9:44AM
Hmm.. guess I'll weigh in.. I play on CC and we ended up in a grouping with like 2 other realms or some crap. Our Queues are as long as they ever were, the people refuse to work together and spend time giving "your realm sucks" lectures, and the price of ranks in honor has sky rocketed. Great system.
Adam Sep 7th 2006 9:46AM
Blizz simply doesn't know what they're doing with PVP, which is confusing to me considering their roots.
The fact that they were able to make PVP ranking even MORE of an honor grind is unprecedented. On my server, PVPing for 35 hours a week is not enough to go from rank 10 to 11. You have to break the 50 or 60 hour barrier to get into the Marshal ranks (and break it consistently). This is impossible with any sort of real life activities such as school, work, socializing with people in the flesh, or even sleep.
I figured they would give PVPers a little break by lessening the grind considering the gear is about to become outdated the day the expansion launches and our ranks are all but erased....but no, they chose to make it harder, and more rewarding for botters and cheaters of all kinds.
GG blizz.
Vushia Sep 7th 2006 7:35PM
While there are a lot of positives that come with the crossrealm battles, like meeting new players, facing new foes (it's nice not getting crushed by the same horde team over and over)... the problem as many many people have laid out is that the people at the top of the ranks who play non stop have pushed the honor curve way off and it is now much more difficult to rank up. I like numbers, here are numbers:
prior to the cross realms 200k honor would get me about 10,500 points towards my rank, at Commander that's enough to move me along a little
after the cross realms 250k honor barely got me 8,000 rating points and was not enough to beat the honor decay
this new system does not reward everyone equally, it gives those people who have the most time to spend the most benefit, and increases the deficit of those who do not have such time
Aaron Nowack Sep 7th 2006 10:30AM
The objective of cross-realm battlegrounds is not to make the honor rank grind easier or harder; I think Blizzard has pretty much stated that system is broken beyond repair. They don't care what happens to it at this point; it's going to be replaced and is almost irrelevant to their decision making.
The objective is, I believe, primarily to test the infrastructure for the forthcoming cross-realm matching system for battlegrounds. The other important goal is to make it easier to get into a battleground whenever you want (remember, in theory at least battlegrounds are fun and something you want to do). A minor objective might have been to make the reputation grind quicker, but I suspect that's just as irrelevant to Blizzard as the honor grind, since it'll also be gone come the expansion.
Crossbones Garona Sep 7th 2006 11:25AM
Here is the real problem, on which I wish WOW Insider could dig up some serious info.
Blues made two promises in forum posts:
1.We are making a gentler honor curve for patch 1.12.
I can’t tell a difference, can you? After the patch, I practically begged for detailed information in the forums of this change, with no luck. It should have be very obvious to Blizzard that the number Battleground players would double, triple, or more because of X-Realm BGs, and made necessary changes to the honor curve to compensate.
2.We changed the number of players allowed to get Grand Marshal/High War Lord.
Again, I did not notice a difference on my server in the PVP ranking that reflect a change. I also asked for details in the forums.
Since they have scrapped the whole rank system in Burning Crusade, that would mean they agree that the current system is not very good, a time sink, and too much of a grind. So would it not make sense to make some changes now to put the fun back in PVP ranking, while we wait for the expansion?
Mike Schramm Sep 7th 2006 11:35AM
Crossbones, those are two terrific points. I'll do what I can to get in touch with Blizz about that, and when I do I'll post something about it.
CTDeLude Sep 7th 2006 12:19PM
AV queue at the time of this post: 2 hours and 2 minutes. It is 9 in the morning.
For that, honor isn't so bad because of the very fact that you can't get a ton of BG's in, so even if you miss a day it's not a huge biggie.
WSG queue is about 50 mintes right now too.
CTDeLude Sep 15th 2006 3:15PM
Oh....#7 we run in the same BG group. Yes indeed...no one listens and WSG is a disaster for it. Even AV at times. Last night the Horde kept mangling our attacks on Drek consistently. No one would watch the door to keep them out. Thus, the Warmasters repawned at least FIVE times. That is absolutely insane. We got to Drek twenty minutes in, the BG lasted another hour and a half.
Heffer Sep 7th 2006 1:46PM
I love the cross-realm BGs.
I hate waiting and like how I get in games almost immediately.
I'm more of a casual player that loves to play AV over the weekend or after work like how some of my co-workers like to play pick-up basketball.
If you love to play the game for what it is rather than always checking your "Honor" and "Rep" it tends to pass a lot faster.
Ryan Connolly Sep 7th 2006 4:48PM
I think it is very funny that alliance now have to wait on Spinebreaker. They are complaining about 5 minute queues where the horde queues went from 25+ minutes for AB/WSG and 2 hours for AV down to never more than a minute for any of the 3. I personally don't like the fast queues because I used to be able to queue up for all 3 and go farm CC rep for up to 2 hours while using the BG as a hearth back to Org. For those who think the rep is too fast in each of the 3 BG's, I am sure Blizzard will nerf it soon so get the rep while you can.
Hams Sep 8th 2006 2:36AM
Crossbones, I too was interested in the softened honor curve with hopes of obtaining my epic pvp set. Doesn't look like that will happen anytime soon for me, the mostly casual pvp'er (50k honor a week).
I took a snapshot of the honor rankings for my server the night before the patch and compared them to the current rankings. The two data points do not give the most accurate results (I wanted a few weeks before/after the patch but that did not happen) but they do illustrate the softened curve. Let's hope the pre html tags work out so the formatting stays nice.
In short, the curve softened starting at Knight-Champion on down.
Lothar - Alliance Side PvP Rankings (2006-08-21 pre patch) and 2006-09-07 (post patch)
Rank | Players (%) for 2006-08-21 | 2006-09-07 | Gain
---------------------+----------------------------+------------------+--------
Field Marshall | 5 (0.25%) | 8 (0.4%) | +0.15%
Marshall | 7 (0.35%) | 7 (0.35%) | +0.0%
Commander | 22 (1.1%) | 20 (1%) | -0.1%
Lieutenant-Commander | 28 (1.4%) | 26 (1.3%) | -0.1%
Knight-Champion | 56 (2.8%) | 66 (3.3%) | +0.5%
Knight-Captain | 104 (5.2%) | 117 (5.85%) | +0.65%
Knight-Lieutenant | 163 (8.15%) | 206 (10.3%) | +2.15%
Knight | 244 (12.2%) | 313 (15.65%) | +3.45%
Sergeant-Major | 372 (18.6%) | 438 (21.9%) | +3.3%
Master Sergeant | 571 (28.55%) | 740 (37%) | +8.45%
Sergeant | 429 (21.45% - inc) | 53 (2.6% - inc) | +?%
Here are the details of the honor breakdown for the two weeks i used.
Monday : 2006-08-21
Field Marshall (5): 1 (58,896) - 5 (55,158): 0.25%
Marshall (7): 6 (54,895) - 12 (50,023): 0.35%
Commander (22): 13 (48,696) - 34 (45,013): 1.1%
Lieutenant-Commander (28): 34 (44,518) - 61 (40,000): 1.4%
Knight-Champion (56): 62 (39,637) - 117 (35,068): 2.8%
Knight-Captain (104): 118 (34,894) - 221 (30,030): 5.2%
Knight-Lieutenant (163): 222 (22,863) - 384 (25,017): 8.15%
Knight (244): 385 (24,975) - 628 (20,001): 12.2%
Sergeant-Major (372): 629 (19,985) - 1000 (15,015): 18.6%
Master Sergeant (571): 1001 (14,988) - 1571 (10,014): 28.55%
Sergeant (429): 1572 (9,994) - 2000 (7,384...): 21.45% (incomplete)
Thursday : 2006-09-07
Field Marshall (8): 1 (58,868) - 8 (55,029): 0.4%
Marshall (7): 9 (54,740) - 15 (50,730): 0.35%
Commander (20): 16 (49,402) - 35 (45,052): 1%
Lieutenant-Commander (26): 36 (44,562) - 61 (40,073): 1.3%
Knight-Champion (66): 62 (39,844) - 127 (35,065): 3.3%
Knight-Captain (117): 128 (34,942) - 244 (30,034): 5.85%
Knight-Lieutenant (206): 245 (29,967) - 450 (25,000): 10.3%
Knight (313): 452 (24,999) - 765 (20,032): 15.65%
Sergeant-Major (438): 766 (19,963) - 1204 (15,009): 21.9%
Master Sergeant (740): 1205 (14,999) - 1944 (10,000): 37%
Sergeant (53): 1945 (9,998) - 1998 (9,707): 2.6%
- Hams
Hams Sep 8th 2006 2:38AM
Looks like the pre tags were stripped but it's still somewhat readable. in summary:
Lothar - Alliance Side PvP Rankings (2006-08-21 pre patch) vs 2006-09-07 (post patch)
Rank | Gain in Post Patch
---------------------+--------
Field Marshall | +0.15%
Marshall | +0.0%
Commander | -0.1%
Lieutenant-Commander | -0.1%
Knight-Champion | +0.5%
Knight-Captain | +0.65%
Knight-Lieutenant | +2.15%
Knight | +3.45%
Sergeant-Major | +3.3%
Master Sergeant | +8.45%
Sergeant | +?%
Mercutio Sep 13th 2006 2:40AM
I know this might rufffle a few feathers but its a RANKING system. Anything that spots how "l33t" you are while playing would be a crutch and soon exploited - the only fair way to play it is you pvp more - you get more honour.
I can see the arguement - that those with less time cant reach top level (im one of these people so im not a rank 11 preaching here) but why should they? The guys who put the most work and time in should be rewarded.
Try and enjoy the battlegrounds for the chance to test and beat other players - theres countless hundreds of counterstrike/UT2004/Medal of honour players - none of these get any kind of reward for hours of play except the satisfaction of being good at the game. Try approaching PVP with this kind of attitude.
The exception to the above is bots - any system that is open to abuse due to being played by a machine deserves destroying in the most horrific way possible and something tighter in return. Bots are being looked at by blizz but it really is a huge issue - slightly off-topic and I wont go into it further but if folk cant get to high rank despite playing well and putting in the time id agree - it needs playing with.