'Hardcore' raiding, one month in
"Because you're not hardcore unless you live hardcore"
However, all this talk of Naxx recently led me to feel I was missing out. I'd been in the endgame a while, and although I knew some instances all too well, there were other parts of the level 60 experience that I had never seen. I'd never set foot into Blackwing Lair, never seen Onyxia up close, and certainly never had a point of DKP to my name.
So, when I was invited by a friend to apply for a spot in her raiding group, I did.
My first impressions were none too encouraging. Thrown into a 40-man raid as one of only two druids, my trial saw me frantically trying to take in everything that was being said on ventrilo -- having never used it in WoW before -- while being vastly outhealed, outgeared and outclassed by the other druid, an Ahn'Qiraj veteran.
This trend would continue over the next few raids. My first visits to BWL, Onyxia's Lair and Naxxramas were mostly spent feeling very confused, with WoWWiki open on a second monitor to help allay the noobishness. My class leader was helpful, but not always present, and I felt I couldn't speak up in /ra to say "I'm new here, what gives?" or else face eternal mockage and doubts about my suitability for raiding. After more raids, I became more familiar with the various fights, but it will be a long while before I sail through them with the bored ease of a veteran.
Attendance is a lynchpin of the 'hardcore' concept, and with a 50% attendance requirement three nights a week, the raid group I joined is none too strict by most terms. Within my first week, however, I was scolded on two separate occasions, which left me feeling none too friendly towards the leader of the group. I may have failed to read one piece of small print in one of many forum topics, but I'd expect pointing things out kindly to new recruits would be more effective than telling them off immediately. A month later, I'm still not at every raid, thanks to other commitments, but I do wonder how long I can get away without 100% attendance for.
One thing that keeps me playing WoW is the fantastic atmosphere that arises when a group of people get together to joke around and kill stuff, whether it be Horde, murlocs or raid bosses. I've found this atmosphere sadly lacking amongst this 'serious' raid group; no backchat may mean we focus better, but it also makes me yawn and check the clock 'til end of raid. In fact, the impersonal nature of it all makes me feel very detached from the group's achievements. Sure, I was there when we first downed Huhuran, but I don't feel like it was anything much to do with me. I just stood at the back and pressed '4' a lot. I'll feel more involved after more raids, but I've felt at home in other groups from day one -- a month in, and I still feel like an outsider here, despite eavesdropping on more drama in the last four weeks than in my entire previous playtime.
Of course, no talk about raiding would be complete without bragging about epics. Jumping from a world where epics are rare but cool into a world where purples drop like candy was strange, and while I haven't had many come my way yet, I've certainly seen some lovely items go past. I've even earned, and spent, my first DKP. While there are some nice epics on my wishlist, the months of raiding needed to get them don't really appeal to me -- I've little tolerance for boredom and repetition, for standing in one spot and pressing the same key for five hours, for strictly-defined roles and damage meter measurements.
Which leads me to think, 'why on earth should I continue'? The epics? The experience? To see (even) more of the endgame, and learn the encounters so I can do them with a more fun group? The experiment shall continue, for now, so watch this space -- I hope this has proved useful to anyone thinking of joining a serious endgame guild, but I hear they're not all like this.
Filed under: Analysis / Opinion, Instances






Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
Chris Sep 8th 2006 11:10AM
Very interesting post -- and I think it just about sums up what a lot of us have gone through.
While levelling, I wasn't even guilded. When I got 60, I climbed the Honor ladder (got to rank 11 before real life started knocking -- at least I got my free mount). I ended up raiding because *I really had nothing left to do*
I joined a "casual" guild that raided 6 days a week (2 days MC, 1 day Ony, 3 days at AQ20 or ZG). The guild was mostly people 20-40s with careers and families. Attendance wasn't manditory, but it was frowned upon to (for example) PVP when people were needed to fill out a 40-man. We got as far as downing Rag and farming Ony/ZG/AQ20. However, a lot of people lost interest after they got fully geared in tier 1s. People outside the hardcore mindset just don't see the point of repair bills and hours upon hours of learning the encounters in BWL.
I ended up leaving about 1 year later with full tier 1s, 2 tier 2s and some goodies from bosses like Hakkar. At this point, I just don't see wasting the time to get gear that I can never use in PVP (which I enjoy), especially with the expansion right around the corner.
I think a lot of people raid because there's nothing left to do.
Dr. Woo Sep 8th 2006 10:26AM
My buddy is a Priest in our raiding guild and has had some serious confusion and frustration issues as one of the guild's only [good] healers. He was made the class officer without his prior consent and is seriously considering quitting because "it's boring just healing."
I, on the other hand, am having a great time with my Warlock. Got my third purple last night in ZG (Band of Servitude), and love the versatility and uniqueness of being one of three regular raiding locks in the guild. Sure, the drama gets on your nerves and sometimes leadership can be severely lacking, but what's fun is not taking it too seriously.
"Okay, I'm gonna ring the dong now and summon the Panther..."
"Wait wait wait...did you just say you're gonna ring the dong?"
(much laughter)
"It's late, gimme a break..."
"C'mon, boss, ring that dong, you know you love to."
matt Sep 8th 2006 10:55AM
You went from no raiding to BWL, AQ40 and NAXX? No wonder you aren't having any fun. Maybe you should find a guild that is raiding ZQ and MC. You might actually enjoy raiding if it is at your level.
Ollem Sep 8th 2006 10:45AM
A while back I had to ask myself. Do I play WoW for fun, or for some obsession with Damage Meters and Epic Loot.
I realized that I had been trying to 'win' the game by getting more than someone else.
Which is dumb. There will always be someone better than me. So now I play for fun. My guild raids MC/BWL/AQ40 and a smidge of Naxx. And I love coming along. But if I can't make it, or I don't get the loot. It really doesn't bother me, because I'm still having fun.
Sounds to me, like the raiding guild you joined, isn't much fun.
Ollem.
James Sep 8th 2006 10:50AM
As for your "boredom" it really has to do with the class you choose. I believe the most stress with end-game is between Warriors first, then Rogues, then following with Mages. Certain encounters here and there are mort stressed upon to other classes, but it doesn't seem like Warriors ever get a break.
"Within my first week, however, I was scolded on two separate occasions, which left me feeling none too friendly towards the leader of the group. I may have failed to read one piece of small print in one of many forum topics, but I'd expect pointing things out kindly to new recruits would be more effective than telling them off immediately."
I completely disagree with you in this circumstance. When a *hardcore guild* has been on farm status for say, 5 months in BWL, and is trying to progress in AQ40 or Naxx, and just picked up a recruit thats MC-geared, they expect that person to know their class well, and to catch on very quickly, and if they don't know what to do.. then you ASK QUESTIONS. Why should we blame the 80G in repairs + all the pots that were used just because 1 newbie was too scared to ask "what?" or do their own research before a battle. That hardly seems like an excuse to me.
You said you were there for downing Huhuran, meaning that guild has been around for a while, and has quite the bit of experience. They don't need to be spending their time training new people, they expect people to learn themself or read what other people have done.
I'm not trying to bash you, I'm just stating from my own experiences of joining into a hardcore guild. I came from a guild that only got to Baron Geddon in MC into a guild that had BWL on farm and was up to Huhu (which we're on C'thun now). I made my mistakes, and was scolded for them. I didn't take offense to them because I knew I was at fault for my newbish ways. From then on, I've always made sure I read up on a battle before raiding so I had a *general idea* on the encounter, then I always made sure to ask about anything I missed.
My 2 cents..
Ender Sep 8th 2006 10:52AM
Well, im sorry, but you need to change guilds.
I LOVE end game raiding BECASUE of the people. its the only reason i still play. we have so much fun on vent during raids, that i look forward to the next raid.
find another guild thats more fun. plain and simple
Crimson Sep 8th 2006 10:53AM
Hardcore raiding guilds are just that. Hardcore. Every hardcore guild I've been in any game, is filled with people who treat it like a job. They are there to get loot and if you screw, you will be replaced. They don't have time to hand-hold are drag people along. Funny enough, I've seen the inside now of about 6 hardcore wow guilds. And they all have the same goal and attitude, And they all do pretty much the same things (buy gold, etc, etc).
Cause when your spendingt 80-100g a night raiding on potions/mats/repair bills, leaves little time to farm for money. So it's just as easy to login to a site, spend $60 and 2000 gold.
bigmooma Sep 8th 2006 11:08AM
comment made on our TS the other night when a new member was asking how the encounter worked . . .
"remember, there's no such thing as a stupid question, only stupid people"
emyln Sep 8th 2006 11:11AM
Not all guilds are like that. I belong to Shadows Edge on Doomhammer. We're a mature raiding guild. Which means there is no min attendance requirements (Some only attend once every month, but most are regular). We operate under the assumption that our members are mature and have families and other obligations outside of WOW.
There's no min gear required, no must have mods installed (although most have CTRaid and Ventillo installed).
How do we fare against the more Hard core guilds? We've been around since WOW started, we started MC in July/Aug 2005, we made our first Neferion kill in July 2006. We raid Thur - Sun. MC is no longer part of our regular raiding schedule, and we clear BWL in 2 nights, currently working on AQ40.
Best of all, we're mostly all above 18 years old, most are 20+, 30+. Much fewer guild drama episodes than most guilds although it does occassionally happen. we have tons of fun on Vent while raiding.
Theadrick Sep 8th 2006 11:13AM
As a long time raider from back in EQ... I have to agree. Raiding is about 90 percent boredom. I also hate Vent, and do not use it. It basically kills the immersion factor.
I've pretty much burned out on raiding at this point, and have more fun levelling my alts or doing BGs.
Meugly Sep 8th 2006 11:16AM
"6. You went from no raiding to BWL, AQ40 and NAXX? No wonder you aren't having any fun. Maybe you should find a guild that is raiding ZQ and MC. You might actually enjoy raiding if it is at your level."
I gotta agree there. You missed out on a lot of the fun of learning the encounters for the first time.
Last year, I went from not raiding, to a guild that was just starting BWL. The way we blew through MC every time we went was strange. I never really had a full grasp on what was going on, why this guy stands over there but the other stands right here, why I shouldn't do "X" but always so "Y". It was like I was only learning what buttons to push and when, instead of learning how to play the MC game.
As we progressed through BWL, it was a different story. It was new for all of us. I did tons of research, like it sounds like you are doing. Each new fight was just that, new, and new to everyone there. Although my gear was inferior, knowledge and experience-wise, I was on a par with the rest of the raid. That made it a whole different deal. I had a freakin' BLAST doing BWL, but hated MC.
A bit later, I was leading our guild raids. When we went to BWL, I knew those fights as wel as anyone, if not better. When we went on MC farming runs, I had to figure out a lot of stuff, in essence learn the place for the first time in many ways. Strangely, I had more fun in MC at that point than ever before!
So yeah, I can see how it would be boring and just... weird for you right now. The previous poster's suggestion of getting in to a raiding guild that is not as far along holds a great deal of merit. Sure you won't be getting quite as cool purplie items, but so what? It sounds like you have your head screwed on straight, and know that purple pixels aren't going to satisfy as much as being a solid member of a team.
Zenko Sep 8th 2006 5:51PM
WoW, for me, is a game where I joined to have fun. I've played other MMOs: City of Heroes, Guild Wars, Ragnarok Online, Lineage 2. And if I wasn't having fun in the guild I would join, then I'd leave.
I just recently joined a 100+ man guild in WoW and I enjoy it completely because the people in it are fun to talk to. They raid on occasion, I'm not there yet only in my 20's, and listening to that on Vent is quite hilarious. So my advice is to join up with a guild you feel is going to be fun because if you're not having fun then there is no point in being in a guild.
Pougen (ER) Sep 8th 2006 11:32AM
I used to think I would hate the end game because of all the crap I heard from and about hardcore raiders. When I hit 60, I joined a casual guild that is part of a guild alliance, so there is always a raid, and there are always people to fill the roster.
I love it, and my guildies are fun to hang with, too. It's all in the group you choose. I raid when I feel like it, and nobody has their head up their ass about it being "work". And no one ever makes me feel bad about asking questions.
I still don't own a purple, and could care less. I'm here for the content - that's reward enough for me.
skuska Sep 8th 2006 11:44AM
"Every hardcore guild I've been in any game, is filled with people who treat it like a job. They are there to get loot and if you screw, you will be replaced. They don't have time to hand-hold are drag people along"
I cannot disagree more with this question. Not with the fact that the raiders are serious; im sure they are. I must disagree with the implication that a job requires its employees to already know how to do the job beforehand. How many jobs have you been to that have no training, that not only expect but require you to "read up on" the companies policies, etc, beforehand? Few companies can realistically set such highhanded expectations because it is much cheaper to train employees than to have them perform poorly.
Upset about 80g in repair bills? Make sure that people, especially new players, know what they are expected to do in a raid, and you wont have those problems. A guild is like a company, and if a company is too stupid to train employees and protect its "investments", ie money or time spent raiding, than those companies suffer. Of course, each guild treats its members differently. I just feel bad for those guilds who treat their members unprofessionally, and protend that they are professionals.
Cedric Sep 8th 2006 12:48PM
I'm surprised I haven't seen GEM mentioned anywhere in this thread yet. To me, GEM made a huge difference compared to when I started raiding (different char, different guild) more than a year ago. GEM allows me to schedule two very specific nights that I dedicate to WOW and it guarantees that I'll get in the raid. It's also a huge relief for raid leaders who know that their raid will be fully staffed ahead of time.
As for the boredom factor, I think everything has been said: it's fun to discover new instances, less fun to farm, and at some point, you'll just get bored of it. Thankfully, WOW allows you to do plenty of other things ...
jennie Sep 8th 2006 11:45AM
Okay, so I guess I needed a bit more detail on a couple of things in the post :)
I'd already been raiding with a casual group for a couple of months. Before joining this "hardcore" alliance, I knew AQ20 and ZG inside out, helped my casual group down Ossi, and had been to MC a couple of times too. I wasn't new to raiding, as it may seem was the case.
Also, the scolding wasn't for a newbie mistake -- I haven't made any of those (yet!), and of course I research and prep for fights. I simply got told off in a very rude manner for one minor point in the rulebook which was easy to overlook. Even having a rulebook was new to me, coming from a far more relaxed group :)
jennie Sep 8th 2006 11:51AM
Oh, also - I didn't want to make this into a class debate, really (but I'm really interested in what you all have to say about raiding in general!). However, for the record, I'm a druid. Feral, but I heal where needed (and I've spent a lot of time healing so far -- it's easier to learn encounters, and I feel like less of a liability!).
Uthelm Sep 8th 2006 11:52AM
I would be upset about being scolded also. Leadership is based upon knowing the strengths and weaknesses of the personnel you are overseeing. This person should have made sure all persons were up to speed on the next fight. There is always downtime to bring people up to speed on the next encounter. I have only raided a few times, and not for any extended period, but the person who was my leader always made sure to point out what was important in the upcoming fight. Don't complain/scold someone due to lack of knowledge when a brief tell could help them out. Yes, preparation is key to any fight, but there are two sides to every encounter and leadership can go along way to creating an environment which will lead to a successful outcome. Like the other poster said, find a new raiding group.
emyln Sep 8th 2006 1:38PM
Yep. I have to agree that hard core groups are not the only way to go. There are other guilds who are not "hard core" but still get to complete the higher level dungeons but at a slower pace.
It will take longer for sure, but the rules on attendance and gear and such are more lax, and more important is the environment is very friendly.
Out_of_focus Sep 8th 2006 12:59PM
This pretty much mirrors my experience with entering the raid game. I decided to leave a hardcore guild during my initiate phase when no one (member, officer, class lead, etc.) could explain the attendance policy. Like, I'm trying to figure out where I need to be, and when I need to be there.... Pretty basic stuff.
Ah well, can't win em all.