Should current endgame content be scalable in BC?
by Mike Schramm 
Sep 18th 2006 at 10:02PM
Jayne from Mug'thol has an interesting thought over on the forums: he lodges a request to Blizzard to make the current endgame dungeons (BWL, AQ, and Naxx) scalable in the upcoming expansion. We already know a few of the new instances will be scalable-- when you take on the Hellfire Citadel level 60-62 wing at level 70, it'll be harder and have different rewards. So why not, says Jayne, make the current endgame instances scalable as well, so they just as much of a challenge to level 70 players in the expansion as they do to level 60s now. In one sense, Jayne has a good point. Especially in Naxx, an instance that has only been in the game for a relatively short time, scaling it to level 70 might give it a little longer shelf life. And since anyone who's 70 won't even get experience from level 60 mobs, there might not be much pull for players to go back and do the "old" instances.But personally, I'd rather see the new content be for level 70s and let this current endgame become part of the middle game. Jayne says that having only a small percentage of players able to play this content would extend its life, but I disagree-- I can't wait to get into Naxx with my casual guild in level 65 gear and tear things up. And I'd be very surprised if there wasn't enough content in the expansion to keep players interested all the way until the next patch-- we're not just talking a new instance for level 70s, we're talking almost another half of the existing game. Leaving the current endgame at the level its at will just let more players experience all the hard work and lore the devs have put into it.
Of course, that does kind of invalidate all the hard work current endgame raiders have put into getting their way through Naxx. Thoughts?
Filed under: Patches, Analysis / Opinion, Blizzard, Expansions
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 1)
Argent Sep 20th 2006 12:01PM
this is how blizz will make naxx scaleable: reduce the raidsize allowed into the zone to 25 level 70s...
Dave Sep 18th 2006 11:34PM
I feel they should have a 'hard' setting for these current dungeons. Why not? you can decide if you want to run them or not. Some of the boss fights are really fun. And that might be incentive to keep 40 man raiding alive as well.
Dan S Sep 18th 2006 11:40PM
Has anyone mentioned what will happen to dungeon caps? Will a guild have to outfit 40 players to run MC, Naxx & AQ40, then after they have done that, shave off 15 players to run the "new" end game content?
I think if they are going to lower it to 25, they should also scale back the current dungeons to 25 as well. I think that whatever the maximum is, it should be universal, because it's not going to make much sense, for newer guilds, because if they want to progress naturally, get tier 1/2/3, before moving on towards whatever BC will be providing, there's no sense in then making them drop 15 people.
Kresyllus Sep 19th 2006 1:28AM
Well, if you think about it, they're already scaling it to 25, just in a more unusual way. Look at it this way. You can do Sunken temple with 3 lvl 60s, however, at lvl 50 you'd been 5 men. Think of that relation to the lvl 70 to 60s. You can do MC with 40 or so level 60s with adequate gear... or 25 with medium gear at 70, 25 can probably do BWL with above adequate gear, and good gear means that 25 lvl 70s could potentially go in Naxx (Though you may need more due to the amount of Utility required for some of the fights.. maybe.)
So in a sense, they scale naturally with the way the levels work out.
michel Sep 19th 2006 2:24AM
I feel these actual "end game "dungeon should become "middle game" dungeon
let them becomes easy.
yeah I totally don't care about all "works" (it's a GAME whatever hard it is) by huge guilds.
At level 70, even Naxramas will only need 20 or 25 people. and it's NICE. it's GOOD, it's NATURAL
with time, everything decay. and there will be enough content in the new extension to wait for the other and again.
it also allow an other kind of player to get in Ahn quiraj ou Nax : the ones who can not afford to create a raid equips and spend entire evenings every weeks.
I swear it's very bothersome to do human management only to play in big dungeons.
forzaq8 Sep 19th 2006 7:33AM
even when you play the game as is the game become easier
first time my guild entered BWL we wiped many time to razagore
2 days ago we were short and end of the night , we killed him with 34 ...
Keegan Sep 19th 2006 8:01AM
I disagree. Some of you are vastly underestimating the difficulty of naxx. If a guild currently can't clear MC or BWL, their is no way in hell that they will be able to do naxx, regardless of level. More "casual" guilds just don't have the time to dedicate, nor the gear. Even with the extra 10 levels tacked onto your charecter the fights are still about ridiculously complex stratigies, and resistances. Don't compare MC/BWL/AQ40/Naxx to an instance 10 levels lower than the current cap, because these are raids which have much much stronger mobs, and scripted boss fights; which require more strategy than they do gear.
The 25 man "casual" raid is another joke. Just because they lowered the cap, doesn't mean raiding is going to become any easier. The 25 that are willing to devote the time to learn new encounters, and wipe will be the one's progressing through these instances. It's hard enough for some people to do ZG, how are these instances to be any differnt?
Violencio Sep 19th 2006 10:37AM
ENOUGH! Enough freakin high-level instances. How about another 20th, 30th or 40th level instance? Anyone getting sick of WC or SM? Ever wished for a new instance to run through with a lower-level toon? Wow, we're going to get two new races, and get to run the same old crap with them.
Steve Sep 19th 2006 10:46AM
Yeah, I can see it now... Patch 1.13, Murloc Invasion!
New lvl 40 10 man raid instance.
Lore: From the depths comes a new threat to Azeroth,
the mighty Murlocs terrifying all the lowbie areas, calling for help from Thrall...
Heroes from both Factions are generally disinterested, but go and kill the Murloc King for something to do on a quiet night. World to return to normal.
Jeff Sep 19th 2006 12:44PM
Ahh, yes. The new 70 level cap will in affect reduce the needed number of bodies in MC/BWL/AQ/NAXX to 25. While technically the fights will still require choreographing, as the scripting will not get easier, the shear increase in stats, level-difference resists and gear will more than make up for most of the difficulties with 15 less people. 25 people with 15-20% more damage, and more health to take damage makes for (25 x1.2 x1.2) the equivialent of 36 members, and add to that the mobs are 15-20% easier to hit and will miss/resist you 15-20 more, so you all of a sudden are raiding MC with 50 people. Cake walk if you ask me.
Mordiceius Sep 19th 2006 1:36PM
MC will will only need about a 10 man instance. BWL will be 20 man. AQ20, Naxx will both be like 20-25 people. My guild was talking about it and we figured we could do it with than many.
Quagmar Sep 19th 2006 8:52PM
rofl, 10 man MC lets see Garr requires 4 locks and 5 warriors min. so that leaves room for 1 healer to heal 5 warriors at a time not to mention having no dps. It is the same for Domo 4 mages and 5 warriors are required and also Sulfuron needs 5 warriors. So that eliminates half of the bosses in there cause you can't do Rag without defeating Domo.
Next argument is clearing trash mobs so in your usally have 2 healers, 2 tanks, and 2 support classes leaving you with 4 spot for true dps, it will probly take a 10 man group about 10 minutes to take down a trash mob and even longer for lava packs if you can survive them.
Finally lets do some math: Everyone is guessing that lvl 70's are goin to be doing about 20% more dmg/healing. An average boss in single boss with no adds in MC has about 1 million hp (I'm rounding so there nice even numbers). Figure an average 40 man group has 15 healers/support classes, 5 tanks and 20 dps. A tank does about 25k worth dmg in a boss fight, so 125k worth of dmg from the warriors. Each of the 20 dps ppl's would be doing about 40-45k worth of dmg would be the other 875k of the bosses hp. It take about 5-8 minute for a boss if your really moving and gear very well.
Now lets look at a 10 man group at lvl 70 with a dmg increase of 50% (which will not happen). 2 tanks would be doing 37.5k (25k*1.5) of dmg each for a total of 75k (37.5k of dkp * 2 warrior) of dmg. The 4 dps classes would be doing 67.5k (45k*1.5) of dmg each for a total of 270k. Together we are looking at 345k of damage in the smae time. So the boss fight would take about 3 times as long 15-24 minutes and this is a very low estimate. My guess it would take around 30 minutes to take down a boss if no one dies or runs out of mana.
Mordiceius I'm killing your idea of a 10 man MC. It would be impossible to complete a full run of MC with only 10 ppl's. It will probly be a 20-25 man raid the resets every 3 day something similar to our current ZG.
Houze Sep 19th 2006 11:23PM
At lvl 70 MC shouldn't be impossible to do with 10-15 man. It's not impossible to do with 30 man today. For example, you don't need so many warriors or locks for Garr, you can tank the adds with a BM hunter pet (have done this). For the bosses, well, onyxia has been taken with 5-6 people, most of the bosses in MC isn't that much harder.
Ofcourse it will take longer time as you will miss the dps a 40 man raid have, but as a common story goes: Nothing is impossible, it just takes a little more time.
Chris Sep 19th 2006 11:01PM
@level 70, ony, mc, bwl, and naxx will indeed be easier. But the new 25man caped instances in BC exp, will have epics that make ony, mc, bwl, and naxx epics obsolete. The only resolution is to make the gear scaleable.