One angry paladin blog
by David Nelson 
Sep 20th 2006 at 1:30AM
Tobold's MMORPG Blog has an interesting link and accompanying commentary about the paladin class. The link is to another blog called Paladinsucks.com. The blogger (or bloggers, as it seems like there might be a couple folks writing there) at Paladinsucks has been keeping meticulous track of every slight, perceived or real, against the paladin class. And he has been doing this for over a year. While I don't agree with everything written on the blog, I do admire their tenacity and dedication. I am honestly shocked this is the first I have seen of this. I guess playing horde since launch and never getting into the pally class kept me ignorant. Tobold makes some good points about paladins in his post, which serves as almost a counterpoint to the arguments on Paladinsucks, starting off with the idea of rolling another class if they are so unhappy. He goes into much more detail than that, including a rather interesting take on support classes. You should definitely check it out.
No matter which side of the great pally debate you fall on, both blogs make for some interesting work time reading. In fact, I make it a point to visit Tobold.com everyday, and I just might make Paladinsucks a weekly stop. Are there any other great class-specific blogs out there I am missing out on?
Filed under: Paladin, Analysis / Opinion
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 1)
swiftlydead Sep 20th 2006 6:59AM
It really sounds like the guy, the way he mostly complains about how Pally's don't do dmg, should have rolled a warrior. I find that in the early days of WoW, at least 50% of the pallies on the server fit into this category.
Ah well, at least he'll have options in TBC -- he can be an enhancement spec Shaman too...
... though had he never have picked a boring alliance race, he wouldn't have been in this predicament anyway. Horde4lyfe!
twh Sep 20th 2006 9:36AM
What #1 doesn't understand is that we pallys don't want to do Warrior calibur DPS. We want to do 'Constant and Controlled' DPS. If you look at our abilities the greater majority of them rely on procs in order for them to work.
Our Judgments rely on procs, our Seals rely on procs, for our passive abilities to work, they need to rely on procs, even some of our active abilities rely on procs. There was also an interesting title in the pally forum entitled:
P.aladins
R.ely
O.n
C.hance
So, the reason why we complain so much is because when we hope to make a real dent in the enemy's health with Seal of Command or Judgment of Command, we don't because of random number generators.
Oh yeah, and there's also the whole 'Mass Dispell' thing too, which cripples our oft flaunted survivability and the entire basis of our class.
Swiftlydead Sep 20th 2006 9:58AM
Why is a paladin wanting to do DPS any different than a warrior that wants to give out raid buffs or stun someone for 6-8 consecutive seconds? I don't understand the difference...
Envinyatar Sep 20th 2006 11:52AM
Nicely said, #2. I agree completely.
#3: The difference is that 'a warrior that wants to give out raid buffs or stun someone for 6-8 consecutive seconds' is not a warrior, assuming I translate what you're saying to mean a warrior wanting to be more like a paladin. However, a paladin wanting to do some at least moderately decent DPS is still wanting to be a paladin. The pally class in WoW is quite a different class than in Diablo II, Blizzard's other example of this class. In Diablo II, my paladin could dump nearly as much whupass as a Barb could. Zeal+Fanatacism Aura=5 hits with one attack/300ish% attack speed/+++dmg%=FTW. AND, it was easy as hell to swap around auras and buff/heal your party. In Wow, this is a lot different. A paladin is 'supposed' to be able to heal and give out some pain equally well, and the way the class is now, it just doesn't happen. The two paths open to pallies are very very opposed to each other in terms of availability. To be able to DPS well as a pally, you have to build your whole Talent Tree, gear, etc. around proccing, and even then trust to luck and 'random number generators.' But to heal, it's much simpler. There are talents to ensure procs on heals, things like that. Me personally, I'm a healadin and oft can burn most of the other healers in a raid, but that's just because I like healing. I know plenty of pallies that go the other way around, maxing out their Ret trees and trying to do some damage, and that's what I did while I was leveling. Yeah, I'll give ya that if someone ONLY wants to output DPS, he should have rolled a warrior or a rogue. But the people that really know what they're doing with a pally, and enjoy the class, are not meaning that they're wanting to be rogues in plate; I think the point is that it would be nice if there was more equality between the two opposite ways we can go.
Argent Sep 20th 2006 12:01PM
i've got about 250+ days played on the paladin class (beta + leveled 2 to 60, one of which is my raiding main) and my view of the class is that there really isn't as much wrong with it as a lot of folks say there is.
the whole metaphor of the class just plain seems to be that we trade decent damage capabilities for more survival oriented abilities. in as much, paladins are very successful (imo).
a fully ret-spec paladin with a decent 2h can deal some pretty crazy burst damage -- just as a full holy spec with a lot of spell damage gear can be an utter beast also. the whole 'we're dependent on winning the proc lottery' argument does have some merit, but blizzard has done some work to deal with that (imo) and people tend to ignore that there are some decent avenues for DD (holy/spelldmg/crit build + JoR = ouchies.)
one of my pet peeves about the class is getting addressed in the expansion (via the snap aggro spell) which leaves really just one thing (imo) i wish blizzard would fix:
either normalize or move kings.
going 10 points into a talent tree that has no real applicable use for either a healer or a fighter just to be a raidbuffer really just kills the effectiveness of the player who gets stuck spec'ing that way -- you're neither as good a fighter or a healer as you could be, but hey -- everyone loves your raid buffs.
the most effective solution (imo) would be to swap the new 11 point holy talent coming in the expansion (+10 yards to auras) with kings, which would free up a lot of build possibilities and actually makes a lot more sense, seeing as the protection tree has three improvable auras that would benefit from such a change -- and it makes blessing of sanctuary a more viable raid buff, to boot (having 2 talent-only buffs in one tree just seems mad to be, but whatever.)
overall, i don't see the class as completely fubar like a lot of the folks on the forums do, but it could stand to use a little fine tuning.
my overall perception is that paladin is a class that's easy to get into, easy to play but very hard to master -- and that aspect kinda causes a lot of the screaming and shouting people associate with the class.
Kyle Joh Sep 20th 2006 12:56PM
When you fight the Scarlet Crusade NPC Paladins, have you notice how difficult and hard it is to kill them?
That's exactly the point in a group. Pallys are usually the last to die and provide group support, think of the rescue guy.
If you look at the classes, the ones that does the most dmg aren't plate wearers. Warriors does good dmg but have almost no range attacks and debuff abilities. They are walking tanks.
If you are interested in dmg/dps numbers, don't roll a pally. If you like to be the party saver, rolling a pally gives you the chance to make use of lots of cool abilities to enchance your party.
Swiftlydead Sep 20th 2006 1:23PM
I think I agree. Back when I was a nub, I thought Paladins were SOOO IMBA. Now an experienced raidign veteran, I cannot wait to have pallies raiding with us in TBC! The class is spectacular at making those around them more effective! I think those who chose to play the class need to relinquish their hopes of ever being anywhere near equal DPS to a non-tank warrior or mage or rogue. Due to the balancing act between classes, having a Paladin being able to do both decent DPS *and* buff the hell out of everyone around them would just be unfair. Those that are specced to do damage are still WAY more difficult to kill than a true DPS class, making it so that they do roughly the same damage in a 1 on 1 situation, they are just take more time and are less likely to die doing so.
I think the class is balanced just fine. Hell there's a pally on my server running around with an Ash'Kandi that's a HUGE pain in the but for my rogue to kill. He usually gets me. Of course, my tier2's vs. his tier2.5+tier3's doesn't help either... Neither does the fact that he's wearing PLATE and can HEAL.
twh Sep 20th 2006 2:30PM
#6 said:
" When you fight the Scarlet Crusade NPC Paladins, have you notice how difficult and hard it is to kill them?"
because they are elite mobs with the strikes we used to have. Of course they're going to be tough because they are ELITE MOBS! Not the paladins players can use. There's a difference.
And, to the contrary, Warriors DO have ranged attacks. Whether it's using ranged weapons, or the charges that can quickly close the distance between them and their foe. They can compensate for range, paladins cannot.
And for pete's sake, read my comment again. We DO NOT, I repeat, DO NOT, want to do warrior level DPS! We want sustained DPS that is not reliant on chance so we can actually do something against those wretched mages and locks that can two-shot us before we can get in melee range.
#7, so, it's fair that a paladin can make everyone around him spectacular, but the paladin himself can't? Gee, that's real balanced. We are imbalanced, but that's almost every other class that's against us because we have more holes in our defense than anyone else.
1 school of magic that can be silenced/counterspelled so we're nothing more than an auto-attacking bot. So, if we can't heal, then we're pretty much a free HK since we don't have enough attacking power to make a difference.
No ranged attacks, except for those that are specced for it, and even then, the range is nothing to wrote home about. So, we can't go against mages and locks from a distance, unless we have engineering, but that's beside the point.
No defense against spells. What good does plate do against spells? Nothing.
I am simply amazed at how ignorant some people can be when they claim that we're balanced when they haven't even bothered to get to 60 with our class and have to endure the crap we have in PvP.
Mencken Sep 20th 2006 5:17PM
I've played a pally for about eight months, it is both my first 60 and my first character. I picked this class because I wanted to be able to solo whenever I felt like. I think this is the thing that's not said enough about paladins : it's painfully slow but we can solo things other class couldn't (for example I soloed Maraudon in T0.5 and blues, and it wasn't that hard).
Overall I must say I'm quite happy with the way the paladins are. Sure we can't do any real damage, we have difficulties gaining and maintaining aggro when tanking, and often people think of us as mediocre healers. I don't care and I love to prove them wrong when running an instance with them - yes it's harder for us to tank or to be the only healer in the group but still we can do it.
I find it really rewarding to see that skill, and not gear, often makes the difference. It forces you to play better because you know you could.
Thayne Sep 20th 2006 5:19PM
Ugh..I get so tired of the Pally Whine.
Pallies just don't get it...YOU....ARE...A....SUPPORT...CLASS.....L2P.
Your role is to heal and buff. You are the most difficult class there is to kill.
Horde HATE to face Pallies in PvP because it takes SOOO long to kill.
Hey, while we are wishing for Uber-classes...can my hunter wear plate, heal/buff and melee like a rogue please?
Pallies: You..are...not...a...DPS...class
You..are...not...a...warrior who heals
You..ARE...A priest in plate.
Deal with it or reroll.
Bring on the pally hate!!
Kaylos Sep 20th 2006 5:47PM
I used to not have any sympathy for Paladins, because most were cocky about there uberness over warriors when the game first came out. Lately, I sort of feel for them. There are really only two paths for any sort of dmg capability for them, and one is based on chance, and the other in the holy tree relies on long cooldowns and is a heavy drain on mana.
Paladins right now are the best PvP healers. For a priest to get close to the same survivability, he has to sacrifice gear with +healing and int for armor. I have seen some of these "armor" priests in action, and they are incrediably difficult to kill, but they are on horde side and don't have to worry about purges and since horde do not ahve paladins, they are a good substitute for them.
Yet everything about the Paladin in PvP centers around that single thing, the bubble. More than armor, that bubble is what makes the paladin such a powerful PvP healer. Any mage/warlock combo with good raid gear can rip apart a paladins health just as fast as any priests or druids would dissappear. It is only that bubble that saves them and allows them to continue healing. Since the bubble isn't going anywhere, there ain't much going to happen for a paladins dmg.
Maybe they should make SoC a sort of instant attack on a long cooldown like stormstrike. That may help some in giving them controllable damge. What is the PPM for SoC? 2 PPM? If its that, put it on a 30 second cooldown. Gives the paladin the same dps, but in a controllable manner. It would also make them much more dangerous in PvP as even a healing paladin usually has a decent amount of +dmg on his gear and that applies to SoC procs. Especially now that the bubble will be dispellable, they need something to compensate.
twh Sep 20th 2006 10:23PM
#10;
When you're not allowed to use your pet, you can gripe all the day long about how much Blizzard has a grudge against you, until then, try leveling a pally up to 60 and see exactly how we're so overpowered and good luck, because you won't.
Thayne Sep 21st 2006 1:40PM
#12...Guess what? We CAN"T use our pets once we hit 60. Ask any hunter how usefull his pet is in End-Game Raiding...Not at all.
And Im not saying you are overpowered, just that most don't understand their role, which is buffing/healing, A priest in Plate.
twh Sep 21st 2006 10:43PM
And I call you out to say you're wrong.
We are NOT priests in plate.
We are NOT warriors that can Heal.
We are Paladins!
And despite the gamewide biases which many espouse, (the developers included, evidently) I have no intention of following those foolish ideas.
I've been at the front at ZG, Scholo, Strat, and MC and I have every intention of being at the front in AQ20, AQ40, BWL, and Naxx.
That's not to mean I'll never heal. I will heal, but I will not simply be passive the way many expects me to be.
In short: Get it right or get out.
woeye Oct 4th 2006 9:30AM
# Horde HATE to face Pallies in PvP because it takes SOOO long to kill.
What a nonsense. Maybe you as a hunter. But plate helps n-o-t-h-i-n-g againts magic and healing can be easily interupted. And pallies have no ranged attack nor charge. Kiting a pally as a hunter is so easy - l2p :-P
# Hey, while we are wishing for Uber-classes...can my hunter wear plate, heal/buff and melee like a rogue please?
But you can deal damage and go solo damn good without respecing.
# You..ARE...A priest in plate.
Then we can't we wear staffs? And have you ever seriously compared the healing spells of a pally against all the other healing classes? As a matter of fact the pally has the weakest healing spell (FoL) of all. Yes, it's very mana effective. But in PvP FoL is a joke (compared to the Shaman's LHW).
# Pallies: You..are...not...a...DPS...class
And hunters since Naxx as well :-P
I do not want to be a DPS class. But I do not want to be forced to stay at the back and spam two damn buttons all the time. This is not the idea of a "hybrid" imho.
J Wallace Oct 7th 2006 5:03PM
The number one problems paladin's face is the horrible gameplay of other paladins. I've spent a ton of time holy/prot raid build, and even finished my PvP grind that way. The rest of the time I was Ret/Holy which while not uber practical for raids is a ton of fun to play with the right guild/group.
Getting back to my point paladin's are their own worse enemy. I don't have a problem OT'ing ZG or AQ. Why? Because Holy Shock is a great way to grab aggro, judge SoR, and crit heal yourself. Promise you unless some dps is going all out you will have the mob stuck to you. Load up crit gear, grab a good 2H weapon, and you wil be suprised the amount of damage you can put out. Seal of Command is insane when you consider that you can double crit and hit a tagret like an execute does.
Sustained dps is..... for dps classes. Does plate matter against magic? No. Does repentance give you a chance to beat csting classes? Yes. This argument is like a Holy priest saying he wants to do damage. In my mind it is people sniveling because they want their cake...and to eeat it too.
Now..nerfing shammys is another story.....but leave paladins alone.