WoW Moviewatch: DPS-adin rocking Naxx
by Mike Schramm 
Sep 22nd 2006 at 1:15AM
If there's one thing the Paladin debate needs, it's more fuel added to the fire. That's why Esotarius of Argent Dawn didn't just want to tell people that Pallys in raids could do more than heal-- he wanted to show them. This video, of him DPSing during an encounter in Naxx, is crazy stuff. If you've ever thought a Paladin's role in raids was only to buff and heal, check this out.
2100 crit! That's wild, man. Of course, after the expansion hits, Blizzard is planning to take the Shammy class more offensive and the Pally more defensive (starting by nerfing Divine Shield?). But this video is evidence that Healadin isn't the only option for Pallys after 60.
Update: Eso has more info about his build and the movie on this forum.
2100 crit! That's wild, man. Of course, after the expansion hits, Blizzard is planning to take the Shammy class more offensive and the Pally more defensive (starting by nerfing Divine Shield?). But this video is evidence that Healadin isn't the only option for Pallys after 60.
Update: Eso has more info about his build and the movie on this forum.
Filed under: Paladin, Analysis / Opinion, Instances
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 1)
Argent Sep 22nd 2006 2:01AM
my first thought on reading this was 'gotta be noth' and sure enough, noth it is -- the one fight paladins get to dps it up in naxx. whee.
my guild downed him not 2 hours ago and despite the fact that my spec (24/11/16) really isn't all that great for melee damage, i routinely crit noth or his adds for around 1500 (blue AD trinket and consecrated sharpening stones help.)
one of our guild pladins has a 20/0/31 build and he routinely will get 2k crits in pvp and pve. both of us use the same weapon, incidentially (sulfuras).
Jacob Pulliam Sep 22nd 2006 4:21PM
There is no nerf to divine shield. It is a buff to the priests dispel.
Glowing Sep 22nd 2006 9:01AM
His 2100 crit was holy damage...that's not news. If he had crit melee then I would be impressed.
stapleboy Sep 22nd 2006 10:19AM
I'm not sure I'd even call a bunch of whiney paladins a "debate." :) You're a healer wearing plate - so what if your DPS relies on procs. I play a feral druid, so I can do pretty consistent damage with decent gear... but guess what, weapon procs do nothing for me and I have to shapeshift to heal. I'm not complaining.
If you wanted steady, respectable damage, you shouldn't have picked a plate-wearing healer. And to the pallies who complain about casters: Eye for an Eye. If you're that worried about PvP, you can spec to damage casters just for critting you. Which, consequently, is the only way they're going to get through your 5k+ hit points between you bashing their faces, cleansing, and healing yourself.
Paulie Sep 22nd 2006 10:21AM
It's decent damage, but look at the gear you have to get to attain it. Between hitting 60 and being At least Tier 2/AQ40 geared, paladins have the big ol' suck hanging over em.
In my PVP gear (BWL/Naxx stuff, Herald of Woe), I can hit 1200-1500 AP, and if I'm *LUCKY*, get about 4000 damage off from a melee hit, a SoC hit, and a judgement at once. More often I'm hitting for about 500-1000 total. That's a big spread in damage.
The problem with paladins always has been, and will continue to be no control over burst damage.
But hey, we do get the best looking Tier 2 gear, and we're more efficient healers than anyone, and we can generally drink those druids under the table.
Kaylos Sep 22nd 2006 11:17AM
Considering I have seen white crits well over 1000 on noth with my one hander when I have been fully buffed out like that, I am not impressed. First of all, the vdeo is clipped to only show you the big crits. It is still only auto attack and he didn't show you where he ended up on the damage meter. DPS isn't about big crits, its a bout a steady stream of damage. I don't even have his level of gear yet other than my one handers, and I guaruntee I would out-dps by more than double, if not triple on my fury warrior.
Wasted raid spot imo.
perambulator Sep 22nd 2006 12:48PM
Kaylos,
At the end of the video it says he was listed 5th on SW_Stats just behind the rogues. My pally isn't a 60 yet but he's often second in damage stats, admittedly in PUGs, but often ahead of rogues, hunters, and warriors some of whom are a couple of lvls higher than him.
Kaylos Sep 22nd 2006 1:41PM
Nice he says it, but doesn't show it. Am I skeptical, yes? Do their Fury warriors suck to be beaten by a paladin, Yes. Do their mages suck, to be be beaten by a paladin. Yes. I have seen a loladin try to keep up in damage meters with full dps gear and hand fo rag back when we were doing BWL. I wasted him despite having so-so weapons and wearing some blues. And so did everyone else, he didn't evenn hit the top 10 in MC.
I have a hard time being impressed considerng for one its noth, probably one the easier fights in Naxx. Definitely easier Ouro, C'thun, or even Twin Emps.
Guilds that let Paladins DPS do it as a joke or for fun on something that is already on farm status. For raid specialization, its a waste. I don't care where he finished in his raid, he would not have even been in top 10 doing damage like that in ours. He specifically edited it to only show the crits. Then he tells you and doesn't show you that he was 5th.
twh Sep 22nd 2006 2:49PM
Kaylos;
just because raids don't do it the way you do does not minimize their effectiveness. Maybe they're actually *GASP* trying something new! Who would of thought?!
Judging by the amount of sneer in your posts, you've probably never touched a pally, so don't tell them how to play.
And by the way, there's a story about a Mr. Pot and a Mr. Kettle that you should probably read.
Kaylos Sep 22nd 2006 4:14PM
You can play however you feel like, but if Paladins were viable dps options, they would be doing DPS in raids. Yet every endgame guild I know of refuses to let Paladins DPS in raids. Why? Because its not effective. If this guild allows him to, more power to him. But a DPS paladin is a slot lost to another class that can do a lot more DPS or the loss of a lot of healing/cleansing.
This does nothing to prove paladins can dps. If you are in awe of big numbers, carefully edited mind you so all you see are the crits (about 80% of the numbers you see are crits), then more power to you. If you have a guild willing to waste a raid slot on you, more power to you.
I have raided for about 15 months now, all the way from MC to Naxx. I have seen every iteration of Paladin and watched them and their dps in raids weeded out. It is just not efficient. Is it good damage for a Paladin, yeah it is. Does it come close to what even an Arms warrior should be doing, no. Not to mention a 2H or DW fury warrior with equivalent gear will blow that away.
You can exalt this video all you want on how paladins should be able to dps in raids, but those who have raided a long time know better, and you are only hurting future Paladin's ability to get into raiding guilds if they believe they will be allowed to DPS.
I have PvP'd with a Paladin with full avenger's and hand of rag. It was also a waste of a group pvp slot. He couldn't heal anyone and kill very few compared to what a rogue or warrior could have done in the same gear. Retribution will remain the "solo" dueling/PvP build, but for both raiding and group PvP, a healing Holy paladin will always be better.
twh Sep 22nd 2006 5:19PM
#10:
DS could never be dispelled before. With Mass Dispell, it can be dispelled; henceforth, a nerf.
Kaylos;
It's never a waste if the boss mobs go down. And if you want to stick to your inflexible, single-minded, and uncompromising view of what paladins can bring to a raid or a fight, then more power to you.
Kaylos Sep 22nd 2006 5:46PM
And if the boss goes down faster its better. Espousing this will only lead to dissappointment on Paladin's part if they realoly believe they will be allowed to DPS in raid guilds. I even bet this guy is primarily a healer except when its a boss on farm status where the guild throws him a bone and lets him DPS. Call me single minded and inflexible all you want, there is a reason guilds specialize the way they do.
Do what you like, back in the days fury warriors werer gimp, plenty still played them despite the vast majority recognizing just how much more powerful Arms warriors were. It wasn;t until arms was nerfed and fury buffed that many switched to fury because it was astually a viable dps and pvp option. Ret paladins are in the same boat, unless they buff the tree, only the stubborn will use the build. the only reason these builds were always in end game guilds before was because you ahd to have a paladin with kings. Now most guilds require holy specs when learning new content, some require it all the time.
It's always a waste when you could have done it better another way. You just don't notice the waste if it is a boss already on farm status.
Wee@me. Sep 22nd 2006 6:07PM
Lol, this is a joke.
Okay he had some big numbers, but paladins honestly can't sustain DPS in raids to keep up with actually damage dealers.
And it's a shame that DEoI was wasted on such a paladin.
hi2udrama.
Ben Serwa Sep 22nd 2006 9:20PM
I'm afraid I can't watch this because of the Linkin Park music.
bogen06 Sep 24th 2006 7:55AM
that guy is a champ, i now realise that when a paladin plays a healer he's only using half his class, thank God i saw this cause i was gearing up to be a priest in plate, wow talk about sheding light on a dark situation.
And i was told a paladin will always be 20'th on the DPS charts, he sure showed me.
wheat a champ.
lawlpally Sep 24th 2006 5:48AM
i'm not exactly pro-paladin - in fact i thought very little of them until i saw this video. thats great damage for a paladin either way you look at it. good job esotarius, i hear youre doing a patchwerk video next. youve started a pretty hot debate on the paladin forums.
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=27993020&sid=1
Drakeniir Sep 28th 2006 3:49PM
After watching this video, I decided to bust out my pvp gear during farm content, ZG/MC/BWL/AQ20 when healing numbers allowed. I found that stuff died signifigantly faster. no, don't have near the gear this guy has.. but with my pvp build, I found especially during trash things died fast. Not only that, but rogues and tanks actually appreciated having someone there next to them to make sure judgement of light was up constantly. I instructed people not to heal me, and took relitively little damage as long as i was careful. I kept this up while cleansing, and also tossing the odd emergency heal to a rogue or tank. Was also in range for a quick LOH if required (saved a possible nef wipe because of it)
so it's viable, if you have a properly built raid to have a paladin do this. I'd even go so far as to say that having atleast one up there doing his best is an *asset* as a back lines paladin required to keep judgements up, often there will be a few seconds while you run into range to stick it back up. There's also vindication, which unfortunately has been nerfed on most fights, but still works on lots of trash mobs, and even nefarion.
as for the video, I really wish he hadn't edited out the inbetween stuff. i think he should release a second 'uncut' version spike damage is exciting and all.. but average damage is important.
d Sep 29th 2006 7:58AM
Am I misinterpreting what he says at the end of the video?
"This clips seen in this video are entirely from the same Noth encounter in Naxxramas. Before you say anything about paladins spells versus undead, know that all clips seen here are auto attacks and Seal of Command"
... sooooo are we supposed to ignore your Judgement, Exorcism and ZHC cooldowns.....? You've got to be kidding me.... and the kiddies on the Paladin Forums just ate this stuff up too... amazing.
Heelixx Oct 8th 2006 2:46AM
Ok, from the start to the finish of the video i was reasonably impressed by the amount of DPS that was thrown from this Paladin. Here's where my enthusiasm changes.
I have a Rogue in Part NS & part BF also BS (T3)(lol and 1 nasty blue that i just can't replace but nvm) and do Naxx regular in my guild and am purely combat mixed with a little assassin for the constant DPS needed. THERE IS NO WAY that a Paladin will ever do the SUSTAINED damage that i can do over the full period of a fight from START 2 FINISH.
Sinister Strikes of 1000+ CONSISTANTLY.
Evis of 2000 - 2600+ CONSISTANTLY
Mix this all with Adrenalin Rush + Blade Flurry + SnD , im gonna be tearing the Boss a new Asshole very very quickly.
I know that there are other classes that can out-damage a rogue , but a Paladin is not one of them & not as consistant (theres that word AGAIN).
People's L2P & understand exactly what is going on in your raids & don't beleive the Hype that DPSADINS are FTW, coz imo they are FTL, unless doing there roll as asigned.
Simple test get a Rogue & a Paladin on the same Mob types & see who finishes 1st. My epix are on the Rogue, but if you placed your Epix on the Paladin then. ....
************* GIEF EPIX PLXX ***************
x Oct 16th 2006 4:57AM
I'm one of the best pvp paladins on my server, and I will honestly say that it makes no sense for paladins to DPS in raids. mages/rogues will destroy your DPS (but you can easily match warlocks :P).