Patch 5.4 patch notes
Virtual Realms feature revealed
The Proving Grounds are coming
The latest patch 5.4 newsDealing with off-specs (or being one)
by Mike Schramm 
Oct 5th 2006 at 1:06AM
Righteous Fury has an interesting little piece up about off-specs-- you know them, they're the weirdos who play their class to do something other than its standard role in endgame raiding. Feral druids, DPS-adins, Fury warriors, Enhancement shammys, and (perhaps most of all) shadow priests. The convention says warriors spec prot, pallys heal and buff, and priests use +healing gear, but these guys (and girls) choose to buck the curve.What he says rings true to me because the guild I play with has finally reached the point where we're getting serious about raiding. My GM hasn't asked anyone to respec yet, but he's put it out there that we want to beat these bosses and get the gear-- if you can't do the job given to you because you're specced for PVP instead of raiding, you've got to move out of the way for someone who can, or do what's best for the raid. And I'm right there with him. Holy priests are the best healers in the game, so most priests should be holy and healing. Protection warriors have the tanking tools, so if you're MT, you better be prot.
I'm not saying there's not room for off-specs-- there's a guy in my other guild who's such an awesome shadow priest (shout out to Gregorus on Thunderhorn-A!) that the whole guild has shadow priest alts just because they've seen what he can do. I main tanked for him in Strat, and when he told us early on that he "tanked by healing," he wasn't kidding-- the mobs all hit him way more then they hit me, and yet he kept us all healed and up with Vampiric Embrace and his +shadow gear. After seeing that, of course I had to have my own shadow priest, and when she hits 60, I already expect that I won't be able to raid with her under normal circumstances. No problem-- I'll melt faces in PVP with her, and raid with my prot warrior.
On the other hand, if I need a DPS for a raid, and a shadow priest can roll out as much damage as a rogue or a warlock, then we're talking. But from what I've seen, off-specs can do those things, just not as well. Gear to gear (without extremely expensive potions), can a feral druid tank as well as a warrior? Can a shadow priest out-dps a rogue? Because if not, I'm giving those spots to PVE specced raiders.
Filed under: Analysis / Opinion, PvP, Instances
Reader Comments (Page 2 of 3)
Unkle Oct 5th 2006 9:37AM
I agree with Gharr 100%.
You do not have to respec just to raid. Obviously you don't want every person in a 40 man raid to be off-speced, but don't hate just because some aren't.
I play a BM hunter, and it works very well. My ranged damage still rocks with my high crit%, and my pet can off (heck sometimes main) tank very well. (5k HP and 6k armor work well)
Not to mention my pets can do some decent additional damage when they are out.
My feral druid can tank extremely well, and still provide additional healing when needed. This is the important part though. (especially for the hybrids & shadow priests) You HAVE to switch roles when you need to fill them. However the DPS forms really help work through the trash.
Arturis (Elune) Oct 5th 2006 10:21AM
My main character would be considered an "off spec" paladin - Im currently 11/11/29, but thats mostly because I spread out my talents in order to keep the same play style I had before the Paladin Revamp. Blizzard decided to take two of my favorite abilities - Consecration and Blessing of Kings - out of the Retribution tree and move them to the other trees. Before that I was Retribution with a dash of Holy to help with healing.
At any rate, I actually do my best healing when Im on the front lines - Judging Seal of Light on the monster the main tank is fighting, then keeping it there via melee strikes and Seal of Command for extra damage. Then if I see healing is needed, it only takes a moment to target the tank, throw a few light heals, and go back to swinging.
Of course, in raids Im often scolded for not staying in the back with the casters. On certain bosses, I understand that - its called strategy, and Im a big fan of it hehe - but on the trash mobs and melee-able bosses, I get a bit frustrated when Im told to hang back. I believe this stems from the duality of the Paladin class - from lvls 1-59 you are, for the most part, expected to be melee'ing in the 5 man groups, but as soon as you hit 60 and enter anything 10 man and up, you are expected to heal, cleanse, and be quiet about it. When I think of Paladins, I think of Knights with holy swords defending honor and justice and charging in bravely against the strongest foes, not standing back and praying that everyone lives through the battle. I guess thats just me and my point of view, though.
What I think the downfall of MMOs (and what leads to this kind of conversation) is the drive for efficiency. If you arent maximizing your potential, speccing just the right way to fulfill the role your class is most efficiant to fill, then people say you are playing your character wrong. I dont see the paradigm shifting any time soon, as the only way to do so would be for an MMO to hide all the stats from the player. Without numbers to crunch, theres no way to maximize efficiancy, and thus the cycle is broken. It would be interesting to see an MMO more focused on social interaction and the true spirit of adventuring then the amount of damage on your latest dropped weapon.
Ah, dare to dream...
-Arturis
Pamoya Oct 5th 2006 10:48AM
I think even the most min-maxing raid has room for a fury warrior. In Naxxramas, my guild's fury warrior is consistently in the top 5 on the damage meter; more often than not he's #1. And he can offtank an add or trash mob in a pinch, plus is more resilient than a rogue. Not really fair now, is it? :) He gets nice weapons and jewelry from raiding but I think his armor set is from PVP.
I agree with the posters who have said that there is really no need for everyone in the raid to be cookie cutter spec. I haven't yet encountered a boss that NEEDS 40 people, so it stands to reason that you don't need 40 generically specced people either. And a few well-played off-specs can bring a lot to a raid.
What I don't care for is people who haphazardly decide that they want to do something different, without putting in the effort to think about their spec, gear for their spec, and perfect their techniques. At that point you really are just being a drag on the other 39 people. If you decide one day to be a shadow priest and just pick some random talents that look ok, and play in half healing gear with some so-so damage pieces thrown in, well, you're going to suck. If you want to be an off-spec, do it right and stick with it.
emyln Oct 5th 2006 10:59AM
I'm a Discipline Spec Priest and instead of +healing, I've focused on +mana regen gear. Currently I have +142 mana per 5 before buffs.
In my full mana regen gear I outlast any and all Priests in raids. True I have to use my max heal spells and my heals are not the highest in terms of dmg healed but you'll find that in all higher instances, +healing usually leads to over healing. (although there are places where its warrented)
Also, as long as 1/2 your priests in the raid are Discipline or Holy Priests, you have the luxuary of allowing the other 1/2 to be shadow. My guild has tested and confirmed this all the way to Nef.
Kip Oct 5th 2006 11:11AM
Thanks Arturis, soo many think that my Pally is only good for heals when i want to be up front where i can bet good use out of my seals. I'm currently spected holy/ret, but thinking of respecing for raiding.
ppriest Oct 5th 2006 11:45AM
Two nights ago I was PVPing in Arathi Basin with my lvl 28 shadow priest. I'm not the best player out there, but I know how my abilities work, and I've read up on the most effective casting combinations, etc. I make sure to keep all the other players buffed, and heal when I can, but mostly I DPS. And sure, I die a lot too, especially when some twinked gnome rogue attacks from nowhere. (But I also get attacked when I'm healing in the back... *sigh*)
Out of the blue, some guy whispers me, "Dude, stop doing DPS, you suck". He then continued to send me a few more irritating and rude messages before leaving the battleground early.
What I want to know is, am I actually wasting other people's time by not playing a holy priest in the battlegrounds?! I felt sort of sorry somebody was freaking out because of my play style.
Kaylos Oct 5th 2006 11:52AM
My 2 cents. when you are learning an instance, you want everyone to be a raid spec. Because raid specs make it so much easier to learn. Most high end guilds are raid spec while learning and once they got the new instance down, they go back to their PvP specs.
It is simply easier if your 2 main tanks are prot spec, if your off tanks are fury specced for maximum damage, if your rogues are specced for maximum damage and not PvP, if your druids are specced for healing (you might have one specced feral and one moonkin for the added benefits to other melee or casters and if they have the gear for it, but not usually), if your priests are specced for maximum healing efficiency, if your paladins are specced for maximum healing efficiency and at least one preferrably 3 with kings, if your mages (once past MC/BWL) are combustion specced and not POM specced for maximum DPS, if your hunters are specced for trueshot aura and entrapment, if at least 2 warlocks have improved imp and the others specced for maximum dps.
You might say well a few people doesn;t make much of a difference. The problem is, very few people want to be "raid" spec. If you let anyone who wanted to spec how they likes, 60-70% of the raid would not be optimalluy specced. All these things start to add up fast. Suddenly your DPS suffers, or healers mana starts running out. Once you have an instance on farm, these things rarely happen, as everyone knows what to do. But when you are learning, encounters can go way longer, more healing intensive, or maybe difficult to get DPS on target very well, because people are not always doing exactly what they are supposed to be doing. Maybe that rogue is taking AoE damage he shouldn;t and now needs heals. Maybe you ahven;t gotten the idea fully on how to control adds and don;t get the time on boss you should be getting for your DPS. Now the fight is taking longer because of miscues and your healers are getting low on mana.
Optimal spec make it easier to deal with these miscues. I guaruntee most top guilds enforce some level raid spec during these times. Doing stuff like having a Paladin DPS Patchwerk does not help the raid progress and that then has to be made up for either a loss in healing or DPS somewhere else. That is probably a paladin that is not optimally specced for healing, so even with all heraling gear on, he won't be as effective as other paladins equally geared.
It simply comes down to, if you want to progress faster, you go raid spec. If you are not as concerned, then you don't, but you will progress slower, because every mistake is amplified by your classes inability to overcome them as well as a raid that is fully raid specced.
Coma Oct 5th 2006 11:54AM
Put on him on ignore and play the game the way you enjoy it. I quit raiding with my priest becuase I don't enjoy ignorant people trying to force me to play the way they feel I should. You heal when necessary, you dps when needed etc..
theflyingorc Oct 5th 2006 2:22PM
I'm a rogue in plate, myself. Tons of fun, and I can tank in a pinch - I just have to change my entire equipment set.
Truth Oct 5th 2006 12:56PM
"It simply comes down to, if you want to progress faster, you go raid spec."
This is the biggest lie I ever heard. If you want to progress faster you spec for the role you play. If you end up not having enough healers and have a shadow priest heal instead of DPS you will not progress as fast. But this is not because the Shadow Priest is there. It is because the raid is not balanced with the correct roles. Some classes play multiple roles in raids and any tree should be viable if the player filling the role is geared and speced for the role.
Warriors - Tank/Melee DPS
Priests - Heal/Caster DPS
Druids - Heal/Tank/Melee DPS/Caster DPS (Jack of all trades master of none)
Forcing specs is a great way to bore your players and lose em. If you don't have enough healers (Resto Druids, Holy Pallys, Holy Priests, Resto Shaman) get more. Don't force the more flexible dps versions of those classes into specs.
Kaylos Oct 5th 2006 2:51PM
The problem Truth is, that raiding guilds specialize, and a mage specialized for damage (assuming equal gear) will way outdamage a shadow priests specced for damage. If a guild needs caster dps, they bring mages or warlocks specced for it, not shadow priests, at least while learning an encounter. Obviously once stuff is on farm status, people are generally given more leeway to spec otherwise and allowed to play different roles. Not only that, raid gear is easier to collect for your class's general role. IE, its much easier to gear a druid out with healing gear than it is feral gear.
Simply put, specialization is better for raids right now. You are right, you don't force a shadow priest to heal, you just don't take a shadow priest with you when learning a new encounter. If said character won't respec for the good of the guild, then he does not come to the raid. You replace him with a healer. Shadow priests are awesome in pvp, but there are plenty of classes much better at DPS than a shadow priests.
Maybe things will change as raid size falls to 25, but right now, I challenge you to find me a top server raid guild that doesn't not have Naxx on farm status yet, that is progressing well, that brings a lot of non-raid spec classes to its raids. It just doesn't happen very often. Cutting edge raid guilds are the way they are for a reason, and its the guild members willingness to put aside their own selfishness for the sake for the guild.
You can cry and whine about wanting to play how you want to, but for many of us, its about playing with our friends and our accomplishments as a group that are more important to us than being the WTF I PWN the damage meters Paladins or Priests. There is time for that later once we have the instance down.
When you are on the cutting edge of content for your server, people want to be part of you, and if a player is too selfish to help the guild, you are not worried about losing him, you let him go and get someone else to take his place.
Mike Schramm Oct 5th 2006 1:43PM
Kaylos, I don't think I agreed with you on the gold buying thing, but I'm right there with you on this one. Until a shadow priest proves to me that he can outdamage a rogue (without pulling the aggro), he's healing on raids, if he's coming at all (more likely I'll fill his spot with a holy priest if I need a healer). That's not an insult to people who choose to offspec, it's a fact of the game.
Now, as for a solution, what if shadowpriests could outdamage a rogue? What if Blizzard made it so that a druid could be a main tank in bear form? I get the feeling that as the expansion comes out, we're going to see more love (in terms of gear and talents) for offspecs, which means someday that a shadow priest and a feral druid and a rogue may be almost interchangeable.
Warlock Oct 5th 2006 2:04PM
Well, the MT for MC raids in my guild....is a Bear..that's right Feral druid, who has approx. 14-15k armor when raid buffed/pot'd. He does great. So off-specs can do things just as well as "raid" specced. But he also has the best gear to allow him to do it.
manji Oct 5th 2006 2:05PM
I've had people kick me out of a group because I'm a feral druid,and wanted to tank. *gasp*
Lex Oct 5th 2006 3:10PM
This may just be optimism, but after yesterday's changes to the priest shadow tree and the fact that the raid cap is being reduced to 25, I think shadow priest raiders will be much more common. Yes, shadow priests probably won't top the dps charts, but while they're melting faces they'll also be healing their party with vampiric embrace, restoring mana to them with vampiric touch, increasing shadow damage by 15% for the locks with shadow weaving and increasing all spell damage by 5% with misery. And they'll be doing all this with 40% threat reduction. Those buffs are just too strong to pass up, and it's a lot of buffs for just one party member.
Mar Oct 5th 2006 3:30PM
I think we'll see some great synergies that other classses can get from "off-spec" classes. There is a BC pally talent in the retribution tree that makes sanctity aura not only increase holy damage by 15% (total) but also adds an increase to healing by 6%. You group that paladin with some priests and they've 6% more to healing! That's like adding 2 talent points to the increase healing talent. (I'm not too sure on the exacts of the talent, since we haven't really played with it yet).
Those synergies create higher level of efficency than straight-up raid specs for everyone. I mean, what's the use of having all priests with the Spirit buff? that's inefficient!
And damage meters/higher dps is crap if you can't keep your toon alive and follow strategy. I'd take a great off-spec player over a bad raid-spec player.
It really comes down to how good everyone is at playing. What gets you progressing through instances faster is how quickly everyone learns what to do. Also, I've noticed that a good raid/guild leader in vent/t.s. goes a long way to downing bosses. Essentially, there are much bigger factors to raid success than your spec.
This game is way too forgiving to really demand everyone be a certain spec.
Deoridhe Oct 5th 2006 3:43PM
As a side note, feral and balance specced Druids, at least, can be really useful to have at least one of. Feral Druids get a buff called "Call of the Wild" which is a damage bonus; stick one in a group of rouges and you'll have a chunk of dps doing even more damage. Moonkin druids (balance spec) have a bonus to magic ability; stick them in a group of mages and watch them do more damage as well. Personally, if I ever ran a raid I'd have at least one feral and one balance druid, and I'd look into the other classes and see what bonuses off-spec can give that will help the raid as a whole. I think the 1 size fits all approach to classes hurts raids more than it helps them.
cappyoak Oct 5th 2006 3:47PM
AC
If your out healing priests in yourt guild you need better priests. Anyone an hit major heal over and over that doesn't make a good healer, Mana Management does. Just like a Warrior needs to manage aggro, and a mage needs to manage mana.
Asim Oct 5th 2006 4:10PM
The truth is that 'raid spec' is a sham. It's an easy way to (pre-emptively in some cases) control and direct the blame resulting from failure.
But failure in this sense is a nebulous concept. It might refer to an immediate failure, such as repeatedly wiping on a certain pull; but it can also refer to a perception of lack of progression. The latter failure is purely subjective, since it is up to each individual and/or group to decide a rate of progression that constitutes success.
Fear of personal scrutiny due to some type of failure (whether actual or subjective) has become so intense that it has become commonplace for raid and/or guild leadership to create ways to shield themselves by pre-emptively distributing the blame. Hence, a spec is dictated for each class, and those who do not pay heed are potentially scapegoated before the raid even forms. It is a great way for leadership to distribute scrutiny resulting from some type of failure (again, either actual or imagined) back toward the raid itself.
The reason many guilds end up requiring certain specs for raiding when they first get into Molten Core is because they need to collectively find a reason for their failure; something tangible and mechanically correctable that they can all point to and discuss. The truth is that your raid doesn't wipe on its first Destroyer pull because of poor talent choices. They wipe because they suck at raiding, because it's quite different from how they've played their character up until that point. But as a raid leader, you have to be very careful about when you tell your raiders to simply buck up and L2P; so the concept of raid speccing is introduced.
Invariably as raiders get tired of wiping as they learn MC, many will decide to give raid-speccing a shot. Shortly after, some degree of success will signal to them that this was the right decision; and it follows that if improvement was measurable with part of the raid "properly" specced, it will be moreso if ALL of the raid follows suit. So all warriors must be prot, priests are told to go holy, shaman are instructed to spec mana tide, etc. etc. Eventually, Ragnaros goes down and the decisions of the leadership are affirmed.
At that point not many players are interested in scrutinizing where their success comes from. They see it as, "We sucked, we respecced, and shortly afterward we stopped sucking." The fact is that success has almost nothing to do with spec, and almost everything to do with learning to raid. This is true from top to bottom. Bringing spec into the discussion is simply a great way for those at the top to distribute the burden for failure among the raiding force while avoiding simply telling your guildmates that they suck.
It's perfectly obvious that it should be easy to find a better raid DPSer than a shadow priest; but why not let them heal? Similarly, a fury-specced warrior shouldn't be wearing his DPS gear when tanking for a raid. If he does, he's ignorant of the role he's being asked to fill. But does he suck because he's fury specced? No, he sucks because he doesn't know what he's doing with regards to raiding.
Forcing your members into a certain spec is definitly a way to signal that the leadership is serious about raiding. It is unfortunate that in reality it has so very, very little to do with the success or failure of a raid.
Uthelm Oct 6th 2006 12:03PM
You paid the money to buy the GAME, you pay the money every month for your account, you are not playing YOUR character wrong. Although, you may be left out of some raiding by certain people, in the end you can't play your character wrong, because it is your character! The game, and this is what it is, is meant to be enjoyed by the person who purchased it. Nowhere have I seen anything that says I have to play my character how someone else tells me.