Taking a PVE guild to the expansion
by Mike Schramm 
Oct 16th 2006 at 11:47PM
So the endgame guild I'm a part of (shout out to Gothic Bunnies on Thunderhorn-H!) is doing really well lately. We just got a nice influx of new members right around the time we started getting serious about MC and ZG, and just this last weekend, we finally made it to Domo (Rag, you're on notice) and, later the same day, downed Hakkar (that was an experience, let me tell you). So we're rolling right along-- we're already getting set for Onyxia, and by the time the expansion hits, we'll be ready for BWL.Oh, right-- the expansion. I'm not in a position of leadership in this guild (or any guild), but you have to think the sudden influx of great items, new instances, and ten more levels (I just kind of assume everyone in the guild plays WoW enough to buy it as early as possible) might throw things off a bit. What's the point in farming MC for tier 1 stuff when even quest rewards in the expansion look better? And how can you get a group of 20 together for AQ Ruins when everyone has to work up ten levels again, will be starting new alts with the new races, and LFGing (with the new system) for PVP and the new instances?
In short, how do you keep a "mid-endgame" guild together when all the cool new stuff hits?
Now, if you're in Naxx already and half the guild is dressed in Tier 3, I'm sure it's not that big a problem-- you'll probably all go to Outland and level up together. And if you haven't made it to 60 yet, you're probably not worried at all-- you haven't invested enough time in this raiding system to care too much. But it seems to me that things are going to be pretty scattered when the expansion hits, and it's coming right at a time when a guild like mine is hitting our stride on the old stuff. I do trust our leadership-- I'm sure that if anyone can strike a balance between leading the guild into the new content and staying busy on the "old" content, they can. But I expect it to be pretty tough. I don't think we're wasting our time on the "old" content-- even if my ZG gear will be outdated by the end of the year, downing Hakkar was an experience I'll never forget. But with all the new instances calling, along with the phat lewts and new encounters, will current "mid-endgame" guilds ever feel the need to go for C'thun? Or will AQ become the new Dire Maul-- an instance that has some cool stuff and fun encounters, but often gets overlooked on the way to endgame?
Filed under: Patches, Analysis / Opinion, Guilds, Instances, Quests, Expansions
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 1)
swiftlydead Oct 17th 2006 3:06AM
pre bwl is beginning endgame. BWL/AQ is mid-endgame.
Groblutsnak Oct 17th 2006 3:56AM
Besides, the gear you get in Hellfire Peninsula makes ZG, AQ and MC totally obsolete, and several good blues from Hellfire Citadel can give t2 items a run for their money.
Avenge Oct 17th 2006 6:55AM
You think raids like bwl will be alot easier for people once they start to lvl up past 60? Like could you one day pug bwl?
Simon Oct 17th 2006 7:58AM
I think blizzard are going to do something maybe to make the current raiding dungeons a viable place to raid even in the expansion. It would seem a complete waste to make the old dungeons obsolete even though i think the new 25 man raid system will be an improvement. I think they should make sure people still go to MC etc
Ikickyourass? Oct 17th 2006 7:57AM
Perhaps they will apply the "Hard mode" to the level 60 dungeons too.
synack Oct 17th 2006 8:50AM
If you think for one second that Blizzard is not going to revamp and most certainly lower the player limit on existing level 60 end-game dungeons: Think again.
Keep in mind how over that last year alone BRD, Strat, Scholo, UBRS, LBRS have changed dramatically. Mobs have been removed or relocated, and the player cap lowered from 15 in all of them, to 10 in Strat/Scholo/BRD/LBRS and UBRS, and finally to 5 in Strat/Scholo/BRD/LBRS.
I am expecting to see the same type of reclassification of the end-game dungeons. Once EVERYONE can hit level 70, where is the incentive to drag 40 people into Molten Core or Blackwing Lair when you can just do 5-man PuGs in Outland for far better gear?
Think about it.
Jason Oct 17th 2006 5:09PM
@Avenge: BWL has already been PuG'd on several servers. You can take a core group of around 15 or so raiders from a guild that's cleared it, fill the rest with people who've never set foot in the place, bring them on your TS/Vent server, and essentially walk them through BWL.
@Ikickyourass?: The CMs have stated several times on the old WoW forums(I don't know if the issue has come up again yet, I stay away from the general forums), but the current instances will not have a 'hard mode' when the xpac launches. Subject to change, as is everything, but I personally don't see a point to preserving an instance that's been done ad nauseum by people who the 'hard mode' is really aimed at.
@Simon: Why is that? MC is done and over with at this point, and the expansion isn't even out. ZG has been run ad naseum; my guild gives Zin'Rokh to hunters. BWL is still new and exciting for us, but at this point it's just gear to finish up AQ40. Naxx is a distant dream, but I don't doubt that it will stay viable, even into the expansion; Gear in there is just too good for most classes, up to the mid 60s. Ultimately, it's not a waste, since that's how progression works. You level up, get new gear, and shard or vendor the old gear. It's simply how it works, and it's how it's always worked. Did you ever farm SM or somewhere for a drop, only to get rid of it a few levels later? I know I did, and when I did, selling the old item for next to nothing wasn't a waste, or disappointing of anything along those lines.
As to the topic at hand, here's my thoughts. If your guild needs to take some time off of raiding to level up, then do so. If you want to ignore it for the time being and continue on in BWL, AQ and the rest, then that's fine too. Bottom line, it's a game, not a job, and games are for having fun. I have a pair of toons @ 60 now, and I plan on getting them both to 70. That doesn't mean I'll stop running MC with those who want to do that, or BWL, or even give up on Naxx and AQ40. If it's still fun, then so what if I'm 10 levels past what the content was intended for. Having the gear to wear around is fun in its own right.
So, that's my 2c on the matter, hope that someone finds it interesting.
Kelgas, 60 Shaman
Wraithsteel Legion
Azjol-Nerub
Dave Oct 17th 2006 8:56AM
Well I'm sure no one is really going to miss Molten Bore/Chore... I enjoy ZG more than MC, even if the loot isn't as great.
Naala Oct 17th 2006 9:03AM
In my opinion there's no real difference between BWL/AQ/Naxx Raids these days. The one really huge problem which makes me sad is that all your stuff you worked for is obsolete. For a guy playing 10 hours per week - raiding BWL or a guy like me - playing toooo much/raiding Naxx (Thaddius) - there is the same problem. It is a psycologic problem: Wether you spent 10 or 200 hours all you worked for is gone.
An additional problem for some players could be that a "position" they worked for is deleted because 20days-played Gamers can get better stuff you worked 150days for.
There occure also other problems - i.e. I saved my DKP for month to get the second Atiesh in our raid but now I do not believe we will get enough splinters because the new items are uber and the new instances/(open)pvp/slow-leveling and so on will take all time we got and the "power"-Raids will gain to have a strong position on there realms so that they will hunt for the hardest instances quite fast to get the "uber stuff" as fast as possible...
btw: please write an article of the new instances "in order" - is there any information if all dungeons are opened from the beginning? Where will you get the most powerful items? In which order you can see the instances (like ubrs < mc < bwl < aq < naxx).
further question: what about the opening event? Are you able to enter the outlands the same day? same week? after weeks of farming and questing? Is Kharazan opened the same time BC arrives or do you have to do a world quest there to initiate the opening of the dark portal?
I think these could be some quite interessing questions for endgame-raiders and other players.
greetings - great site - great news
crsh Oct 17th 2006 9:08AM
Our guild just went through that discussion, what do we focus on until the expansion is out, what makes more sense and all that. We're an AQ40 guild who's downed everything but C'thun, and we farm the first bosses in each wings of Naxx (except Noth). As it must be in every raiding guilds, we always have a bunch of folks who would want to get that last piece of gear from BWL (hell, some people even want to run MC for t2 pants still, and MC is just a fucking bore), while the other half wants more progression content; well, since BWL gear and even AQ40 gear will shortly be (in part) made useless by greens/blues in BC, why bother?
So we're not totally ready for Naxx, I still wish we'd get C'thun, but the focus has shifted exclusively on Naxx until BC comes out. I guess it does make sense for our guild, but I have a feeling some ppl are going to burn out if we exclusively wipe every night, not to mention the lack of DPS for fights like Patchwerk, we'll see...!
LiquidZero Oct 17th 2006 9:13AM
Shoutouts from Knights of Dalaran on THorn-A. Do you think people will completely ignore earlier raid content to solely focus on 5 and 10-man instances in the Outlands? I realize the gear out there might be equal or superior, but it's not all about the gear. I enjoy raiding BWL, and I enjoyed MC when I first started doing it.
KoD fully plans on finishing all existing content before moving into the new raid content in the expansion, and we're what you might call a mid-endgame guild. We may not farm these instances as heavily as before, but we at least want to experience all that content that we haven't seen yet.
In the end though, you might lose some people when the expansion hits, but if your guild has any connectedness beyond just the desire for 'phat epix', it should hold together I think.
Beth Oct 17th 2006 9:26AM
I heard a rumor that you need to get attuned before you can go through the dark portal. Perhaps that is the incentive to get continue getting tier gear. That would also stop a huge influx of people in Outland. Just a rumor... but it would be a smart idea.
okj Oct 17th 2006 11:15AM
Beth,
I've seen it stated several times, from Blizzard, that Outland will be open the first day of the expansion and that players can enter the lowest-level expansion dungeon (Hellfire Citadel) on the very first day.
I don't see how in the world Blizzard could expect players to pay $30-$40, load up all the new content, and then say "oh, you have to farm for like 50 hours to get some special attunement stuff before we'll let you in". There would be a gigantic riot outside Blizzard's offices, and the hate on the forums....wow. Now, you mave have to get attuned for some of the other expansion instances...but not to enter the Outlands, or the first instance.
To briefly comment on the thread topic - I think MC/AQ40/Naxx/etc will be viable instances for quite a while, especially since *you will get experience for killing mobs in there*. While Outland will have quest lines and new mobs to kill, Outland will also be FLOODED with TENS OF THOUSANDS of players wanting to see the new content. Personally, since our guild knows the strats for at least up through portions of AQ40, I think it will be a great BREAK to run something familiar, not have the uber-wipefest, and STILL earn experience points towards level 61/62/63 - without competing with hundreds of other folks for killing 20 uber-boars and collecting their snouts. So, you'll have the advantage of still going for T1/T2/T3 gear...AND getting experience to boot.
Sipnot Oct 17th 2006 11:36AM
This is the question "to raid or not to raid" - at least for now. Our guild is no where near NAXX and we just starting working on BWL. In the last month we have seen quite a number of our guild members leave to join guilds that have already started the progression into Naxx. They want to see everything they can before expansion. This expansion is putting a large strain on the guild has a whole especially when it is very hard to get 40 players to show up for the BWL runs. This lack of attendance combined with the quality of blue items in expansion has made numerous people question what they want for their 15 dollars a month (overwhelming sense of urgency). The hardcore peeps have becoming increasingly frustrated and choosing to leave comrads and friends to see 'cooler' stuff. I plan on staying and hopefully we will come out of this with at least 25 people needed for future raid instances. I just hope the people that are leaving understand what they are leaving behind for basically a month worth of raiding at this point (understanding the gear will greatly enhance their ability to level).
Gog Oct 17th 2006 11:42AM
I am a casual gamer in a small guild of level 60's, and we pretty much run nothing but the Tier 0 instances and I completely agree with okj. We can run UBRS pretty damn quick and I'm assuming that most end-game guilds can get through it even quicker. I'm sure a group that is sick of wiping in Naxx would be quite content running any of the super-easy Tier 0 instances for a little xp. Players run all kinds of instances on their way up to 60, now they're going to run all kinds of instances on their way to 70.
And for those of us in small guilds or if you're a player like me that can't stand large guilds, the new five-man instances that await in Outland sound like heaven. Frankly I'm not a fan of 40-man raids, but I'm sure that there will still be a lot new content added for those who like to play that way.
bliSSter Oct 17th 2006 12:16PM
It's interesting to read some of these comments as a former guild master and subsequent officer in two end-game raiding guilds that we eventually merged into.
Has anyone here seen the ridiculously small experience gain when you're in a 40-man raid zone? I have. I went into MC at lvl 58 on an alt and the xp is not worth the effort at all. You'll get more experience from 15 kills in Outland compared to an entire run of BWL split with 40 other people. To think these zones will be anything more than empty shells until Blizzard gets around to revamping them for smaller raid sizes is awfully naive. I don't mean 20-man lvl 70 raids, I mean 25-man level 60 raids. I'm unsure as to what the itemization will look like after the patch on existing items, but everyone here needs to seriously reexamine why they are playing and try to consider the perspective of their guildmates.
Enjoy the time you have now with the other members of your guild. If there are people you wouldn't normally socialize with because their only reason for being in the guild is to get "ZOMGPHATEPIXYAY!!!", then go run 20-man content without them. Run 5-man content with 3 guildies that you actually enjoy playing with for a new challenge. Roll a new alt. Go out mining and get ore/gems/bars for jewelcrafting.
Any guild master that thinks he/she has ANY clue what their members are going to do once the expansion hits is in for a rude awakening. It's a virtual world with virtual acquaintances and the entire landscape of that world is about to change. Odds are good some of your "friends" will continue playing with you. 4-5 of them may be willing to sit through Molten Core. The rest will be out doing world pvp, leveling through quests, seeing/farming new dungeons, or rerolling horde pallies or alliance shaman.
It's just the nature of change and the best thing any of us can do right now is prepare for the inevitabilty of that shift.
Bill G Oct 17th 2006 12:56PM
Current large raiding guilds [I am in a Naxx only guild] will face a personnel quandry.
Most guilds are the size they are in order to fill a 40 man raid consistently with good players, while leaving a minimum on the sidelines.
After BC, you'll only need enough to fill a 25 man raid, 40% fewer people.
Some will try 2 raid groups, but I doubt that will work for many.
How will your guild reduce by 40%?
Ian O'Rourke Oct 18th 2006 8:25AM
The expansion is putting major strain on the early endgame guilds, those doing ZG, MC and skirting around BWL. In fact, it's probably putting stress on all guilds, but those not getting major benefits from Naxx get it the most.
I know on my server guilds have been breaking up, ever day you see new guilds above the heads of players.
If you combine the better gear by levelling factor, and the fact that new endgame guilds can be built around 25-man raids it is causing massive movement of resourced between guilds for numerous reasons.
I think, overall, the new TBC regime is going to be good, but the changes as it approaches are going to be painful for some.
Bill G Oct 18th 2006 10:43AM
I agree with Ian. 40 was too high a cap for raids, 25 is much better. It will reduce the administrative personnel hassle for raiding guilds, and how much fun is that?
However the transition from 40 to 25 is going to be very disruptive. We've been discussing it in circles in our guild for quite some time, but really haven't come to any conclusion yet on what to do.