Breakfast Topic: What Will Become Of The Current Endgame Raid Instances?
by David Nelson 
Oct 18th 2006 at 8:00AM
Mike posed the question a couple days ago about whether a guild could keep it together come the expansion with having to balance all the new goodies in Outland with the current raid content. That kind of got me thinking...After the release of the Burning Crusade, and everyone starts their quest to level 70, what will become of the current endgame instances? Sure, the five man instances will still see action as people are leveling, but what about the big 40 man raids? Before I saw the rather generous itemization Blizzard is implementing for the expansion, I thought that some of these raids would still be of some use, but now I am not so sure. Why gather 30 level 65s to hit Blackwing Lair when you can get equal or better equipment in 5 man instances or quest rewards in Outland? Sure, some people might clear these raid dungeons out for the the novelty of it, but even at level 70 clearing out Naxx or downing C'Thun is going to take some work, especially if you are not already experienced in the encounters.
Or maybe Blizzard could rework these instances so as to make them more appealing for people as they level. Perhaps nerfing the more difficult, intricate encounters, or rebalancing them entirely.
So what do you guys think? Will MC, BWL and AQ40 be ghost towns come the expansion? Or will people still make time to visit them after the Burning Crusade is finally released? Could Blizzard take some steps to make the content more viable?
Filed under: Breakfast Topics
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 5)
Elüna Oct 18th 2006 8:08AM
People who havn't been there, and have no chance to now. Could do all of them at 70 with a minimum amount of people. I would urge people to actually go visit them even though for only one time, they are all awesome (except MC). :P
Amaris Oct 18th 2006 8:11AM
I think eventually Blizzard will have to scale those raid instances up for lvl 70 people, since people will start to skip them. What's the point of going to lvl 60 raid instances if better loot drops in lvl 70 5-mans?
Jamie Oct 18th 2006 9:16AM
At present playing the amount i can afford to i have ZERO chance of seeing MC, BWL, Naxx, AQ20/40, ZG et all...
I really hope that they can be slightly reworked (not necessarily in time for day 1 of TBC) to allow a 10 man lvl 70 party into them and have a chance to complete....i want to see the content ... i pay for it just can't commit the time now.
Fingers crossed that Blizzard think of us lowly casuals. I'm slightly worried at the moment how much XP is going to be required for 60 - 70 ... obviously i'm expecting it to start at around 2700000 for 60 > 61 ... so 3million XP?
Jason Oct 18th 2006 8:20AM
I see a lot of people wanting them to scale, wanting a hard mode, so on and so forth. I don't see it as necesarry, in the same way that there's no reason to scale up Scarlet Monastary, Shadowfang Keep or The Deadmines. Once the xpac comes out, those instances will have served their purpose in life. They'll still be there as part of the lore, but any reason for going there will have passed in the winds. Tseric and Eyonix have both posted about this on the WoW forums, and they're essentially saying that as each new instance has come out, the older ones have been made obsolete to those who have progressed past them. There's nothing saying you can't run MC once you have Naxx on farm; the same holds true with getting to level 70. Just because the content has been trivialized doesn't keep you from going there.
The fact of the matter is that even Tier 3 will be outdated by the time you hit 70. Ultimately, it doesn't matter. If you're in Tier 3, you've already replaced your Tier 0, 1, 2 and AQ40 sets, along with anything you got from AQ20 and ZG. It wasn't an issue then, so why does an extra 10 levels make that much of a difference? I think ultimately, people need to remember that progression is normal, and that it's going to happen.
Teut Oct 18th 2006 8:30AM
The question is if its fair that high end raids put hours and weeks and tons of gold into aquireing T2 and T3 while some "noobs" with the Add On get that on 5 man instances basically for free.
Thats the ripple which goes through all high end raid guilds at the moment.
Bwani Oct 18th 2006 9:04AM
I guess doing any kind of instance in BC will require some T2/T3 gear, level is only a part of the overall power of a wow character.
It would solve the problem.
People who are already equiped with T2/T3 will be able to get better loots.
The others will have hard times in BC without finishing MC/AQ/BWL first.
I am not in the beta, so cannot confirm though.
pasta Oct 18th 2006 8:36AM
quote:
in the same way that there's no reason to scale up Scarlet Monastary, Shadowfang Keep or The Deadmines.
That is offcourse, since they're not end-game instances. If you want an easier experience through these instances, just level up some more and re-do them. I'm not certain how the current system works with those instances etc (I'm still only lvl 25 on my main), but I figure they have lots of quests available to complete in those instances. This offcourse would help you level up to lvl 70, except if the quest is gray in your log. :)
Mordiceius Oct 18th 2006 8:36AM
Teut, yes it is. Because basically, as a raider, you had the priviledge of getting the gear before everyone else.
Because you dedicated time, you could get lvl 65 blues at lvl 60 (and thus they were purple). You dedicated the time so you could be more powerful now instead of having to wait. Just like how all the AQ books are going to be trainable at lvl 62. Those that raided AQ20 were able to have the skills almost a year before those that don't raid. THAT is how it is fair.
forzaq8 Oct 18th 2006 8:41AM
my guild is up to Neffy in BWL now
we going to beat him soon
we still do MC , ZG , AQ20 why ? because loot is loot
you can't just clear level 70 raid places and expect to get all geared up fast
hell we still don't have a lot of full tier 1 in the guild yet , we have more paladins with tier 2 legging than tier 1 :)
Tasku Oct 18th 2006 8:45AM
but those high end guilds will move onto the new 25-man raids, and tbh you haven't seen the 5-man instances, it may be very difficult for "poorly" equiped players to stroll in and get uber gear for "free"
Jason Oct 18th 2006 8:45AM
@pasta: Just because they're lower level doesn't change a thing. If you want to equate it to UBRS, then the same still holds true. The gear became obsolete as you progressed through the endgame. Progressing 10 levels is no different than going from UBRS, to MC, to BWL, to AQ40, to Naxx. The only difference is the type of progression; levels instead of gear. The entire point of progression is to make your old gear obsolete.
In the same vein that it can be claimed 'unfair' that guilds who raided MC ad naseum had tier 1 made obsolete by tier 2, the gear coming in BC is no different. I don't recall seeing anyone crying about how they spent so much time in MC farming Tier 1 when it was made obsolete by Tier 2, and the same goes for AQ40 gear and Tier 3. This is progression, and progression in an MMO is inevitable.
Mordiceius Oct 18th 2006 9:07AM
You don't need any raid gear to progress in the xpac. People in greens are able to level just fine. Just those in raid gear will finish quests/instances easier and they won't need any of the loot so they can de/sell it and make more money. The commitment now = easier level & more money. But, nonetheless, you could walk into Outland with greens and be fine.
madcow11254 Oct 18th 2006 9:26AM
The main difference of the BC to the transition from MC to BWL to AQ to NAXX is that the raiding guilds alone got to transition when new content came out.
When AQ40 came out, how many guilds could begin going there with any real level of success, only guilds with a lot of BWL gear.
Who can succeed NAXX only fully equipped tier 2/2.5 guilds could hope to succeed.
Progression until now was solely the realm of the raiding elite, suddenly this gear advantage that was their bread and butter for the last 2 years, allowing them to dominate PVP and generally feel superior is being stripped and that is the cause for the mass hysteria.
Will non epic geared folks have a hard time in the new 5 man instances, initially yes. They will be forced to go up another 2-3 levels and improve their gear by completing world quests and then go back, but they will be able to experience the content.
Armand Oct 18th 2006 9:14AM
I am a casual player (tried to go HC but having a life was more important) and have only really seen parts of MC. If nothing is done with current End Game raid instances they may just fall by the wasteside.
I know the comment was made that this is true of SM but every instance pre 60 does have a function progression. SM is a 5 man instance, so even as u level your 5th alt it is still easy to get 4 others to go though it as you pass though the level range (run it twice you get some nice XP and some good gear). With MC/BWL/AQ/Naxx these are 40 man instances. what are the chances of getting 39 other folk to run these instances as you hit 60...the answer very slim....They will simple be by-passed. Peopel will still run StratLBRSScholo cause you can easily get 4 others and the gear will do till you hit the expansion dungeons. The 40 man raids will just not be worth the time or effort.eople will always run the 5 man level 60 instances cause they are easy to organise as you approach and pass 60.
If Blizzard looks at re-itemising the instances and possibly rebalances them for 10 or 15 Level 70 man runs, they in essence create new content for 60%-70% of casual players out there who have never had the time to run them. It makes a great way to reuse content alot of people have never seen. With the next expansion they can then be left where they are, instances which you pass though on the way to 75.
Jamie Oct 18th 2006 9:16AM
For me and i think many casuals....its NOT about gear ... yeah its nice to get but personally speaking i just wanna PLAY and SEE and EXPERIENCE the current end-game content. So if i and 9 other guildies can get lvl 70 blues and hold our own in the current lvl 60 end-gamers then cool...there will be lvl 70 25-man instance that we may still struggle to get a team together to run (we're a small friends in RL guild)
Deam Oct 18th 2006 9:20AM
It is, and will be important to visit these zones to learn the different things that the encounters throw at you. And working as a team is slightly important, and I don't see that changing in the expansion. I'm in a casual raiding guild, meaning 3 or 4 days off with people throwing together their own guild zg and aq20, and we raid BWL (just downed firemaw) and MC is non DKP /roll on stuffs since we've mastered that. We accomplish a ton by not burning out our players so we'll be in Naxx after the expansion still having fun there as it's content stands.. no need to change it.
Jason Oct 18th 2006 9:23AM
If Blizzard looks at re-itemising the instances and possibly rebalances them for 10 or 15 Level 70 man runs, they in essence create new content for 60%-70% of casual players out there who have never had the time to run them. It makes a great way to reuse content alot of people have never seen. With the next expansion they can then be left where they are, instances which you pass though on the way to 75.
I see this type of comment a lot. Blizzard has already stated, multiple times, that at 70, MC will be doable with 20 or less, BWL with 25 or less, AQ40 with 30 or less, and Naxx will still take 30-35 for a clear. Personally, I have no plans to stop doing current endgame content just because there is bigger better faster more; I haven't fought C'Thun or Twin Emps and I've never set foot in Naxxramas. This is stuff that I want to do, and that's by and large the consensus of the guild I'm in. So what if we're doing it ten levels over what it was intended for? I've lost count of the times I've gone back and done older instances now, so why would I ignore content just because there is better out there? I don't think there is one.
Thunkon Oct 18th 2006 9:42AM
I am very curious to see how Blizzard deals with this problem. EQ failed, imo, to handle this and it turned the game into rushing from one expansion to another to hurry up and gear up.
I'm hoping that MC, BWL, etc. will receive a refresh from BC and be taught how to scale to the level of people entering. Losing MC, etc. wouldn't be fun - there's something to finishing up those story arcs from the original.
However, unless the loot tables are updated, they are likely to be the "BRS" of the 65 crew....
Mordiceius Oct 18th 2006 9:29AM
You know Jamie, it is a sad situation, but this is something that I have explained to many people many times. If you do not have the time to raid, then oh well, do not complain about not being able to see the content. So many people believe that since they play the game, they are entitled to see/experience everything there is in the game. If you go to the fair and see some carnies and fail at their game, do you still get a jumbo prize? No. You can't do it, so oh well, you don't get to.
It is the same argument when people think 'oh it is unfair that raiders get all this gear, casual players should be thrown a bone'. Bull. If you're casual and you cannot dedicate your time to raiding, you do not get to raid. You do not get the epics. You do not get to go to the instances. The end.
Then there is always the argument 'Oh well, I don't have time to raid. I actually have a life. People who raid have no life.' That's bull too. I work in the military. I work 9 hour days. It just happens that I have no other commitments (aside from a girlfriend) and when I'm not with her, I'm playing WoW because there is nothing else to do here. I am in a pseudo-raiding guild. We raid every instance in the game (inc. Naxx) and we do not require attendance. As such, we have a lot of older raiders. Many people in their 30s with kids at home and such. They have jobs and lives and they can still dedicate a night or two a week to raiding, so that excuse is crap.
If you are a content whore like me, you will find a way to see the instances. If your guild requires an attendance % that you can't me, you're in the wrong guild.
So to those that wanted to see all these instances, all I have to say is this "You should have joined a raiding guild and done them." Do not make Blizzard bend to your whim because you didn't raid. That is your fault, not theirs. I HOPE TO GOD that all these instances are thrown by the wayside because after the first fifty times of going through them they get REALLY BORING.
Bleh, I've said my bit.
Armand Oct 18th 2006 9:30AM
Trying to get people to re-do old instances without the incentive of loot is almost impossible. They would need to reitemized…..But good news if MCBWL is do able with 20 or less…..