Your guild and your kids
by David Nelson 
Oct 19th 2006 at 9:00PM
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This article over at Terra Nova struck a chord with me. As a former GM of a family friendly guild, I can understand the problems that Liz describes in her post, that being that not everyone seems to be on the same page at the same time. Liz's issues of racy guild chat, inappropriate 13 year old behavior (which she correctly points out might not be entirely inappropriate for a 13 year old) and the conflicts between the parents of kids in the guild and those members without children playing the game really brought back memories.Dealing with those issues was without a doubt the most annoying aspect of being GM at that time. We had several sets of parents in the guild, and they all had a kid playing. Most of the kids were between 14-17, and most of the time they were great, helpful players. But then sometimes I'd be in STV and see one of them flaming someone with extremely colorful language in general chat over some perceived slight. And then 2 days later I'd get a /tell from one of the parents of that very kid complaining that someone was swearing in guild chat and their kid can't be exposed to that kind of thing. I'd usually just have a laugh to myself, make a clever comment in officer chat and then assure the parent that I would work on stopping the adult language.
This went on for quite some time, this delicate balance of dealing with adults who play the game correctly nearly all the time and sometimes crossed the family-friendly line in guild chat, and the odd mix of 15 year olds who occasionally acted like 15 year olds are prone to act. As you can imagine, this situation eventually came to a head. It all came crashing down when a gentleman who could not stop saying the F word to save his life just absolutely went off on Team Speak. The parents freaked and demanded I boot him. However, this guy was very helpful,and an equal number of folks sent me messages informing me that if I booted him, they'd leave too. Guild drama at it's absolute best!
I ended up telling the parents I would not boot him, they all quit, took their kids with them, and we said the naughtiest things imaginable in guild chat for the next week just because we could. Now if I got along better with the parent faction, I would have went the other way, but it got to the point where it was one or the other, and the group without the kids just happened to be the people I enjoyed playing with the most.
I found dealing with people's kids more trouble than it was worth, but I suppose if I had kids playing, I might feel differently. But at the same time, the guild was advertised as family-friendly before I took over as GM, so people had a right to expect a clean guild chat. Thankfully the family group stayed together and formed their own guild, and we continued to mature through the game without them. It all worked out in the end.
And to be 100% fair, I have had some younger guys in my guilds who were absolutely great and I have never not guilded someone solely on the basis of age. It was just this batch that drove me up a wall.
What do you guys think? Kids in guilds? Yay or nay or maybe?
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 1)
monkeywraith Oct 19th 2006 10:41PM
i have absolutely no problem with children in guilds, i have known people as young as 13 that have been great additions ... my problem is with adults that are overly protective of children, which is exactly what my last guild broke up over. my buddy and i decided to put a new guild together and for some reason let 3 others in as co leaders. we never agreed to keeping guild chat rated g, but they seemed to think so, and it ended up turning into a big argument. my problem is, as you hinted at, children say what they want regardless of a parents wishes. when i was younger i was punished every time i let a curse word slip with a parent around, but everywhere else i did not care. the problem is parents not realising this and/or trying to shield their children from the world. oh well, in the past and thats my two cents worth.
kuri Oct 19th 2006 10:52PM
I think it's just common fare that having immature folk in the guild will give a greater probability for immaturity in guild chat and more chaotic guild relations. You're putting your guild's chat and realm reputation in the hands of a 15 year-old, and depending on that kid's household, that could be great or horrible.
I've been in both kinds of guilds, and have been both types of members (I was once that 14-15 year-old playing MMOG's :P). Being a little older I look back at it wondering what was going through my little mind, but anyway...
Having kids in the guild is great for when you need members with time to spare. Granted, their schedules aren't quite as set as the older folk, but they can go days playing without tiring. Sadly, the older you get, the more fatigued from everyday things you become, and playing 6+ hours a day (late into the night) can take a toll on you.
Having kids in a guild can go horribly wrong when, as mentioned, they create trouble they themselves don't even comprehend. Multiply the issue when parents are playing with them, keeping tabs on their behavior. The innate "I will side with my child" reaction kicks in, guild drama rears its ugly face, and the final decisions (parent-involved or not) usually take place without the kid. Either parents and officers duke it out, or the officers deliberate and act.
Then again, sometimes adults are no better than kids in how they act, simply because they can exploit internet anonymity (and in terms of games, server transfers). Not to mention the whole "screenshot or it didn't happen" deal.
Like real life, whether or not someone is good for a guild all boils down to the individual.
energy72 Oct 20th 2006 12:24AM
I am an officer of an endgame (AQ40) raiding guild; I've been for several months, and I have been a guild member since it begin raiding MC. I got into the guild, worked my way through the ranks through class leader and eventually became an officer--all without ever revealing my age.
While my comment may only seem vaguely relevant, I want to make clear that while there is a clear relationship between age and behavior, it is not appropriate to make judgements based on age alone. I have never revealed my age becuase I have always worried that it would alter others' perception of me regardless of my actions.
My key point is that you must treat every individual equally regardless. You must punish and reward based on behavior and not on age, because the two are not always connected. You must only judge people by their actions.
For those people attacking 15-year-olds in particular, you need to stop and consider the fact that they're behind the wheel with learner's permits. :)
As for language in guild chat, I personally am against offensive language completely because it's just tasteless and truly reflects on a person, but I'm not really offended per se. Quite frankly, the things kids say in middle/high school hallways would shock some of these parents you describe. They need to wake up to reality.
I am 16.
Rock Oct 20th 2006 4:43AM
What's the fuzz? Kids are exposed to everything from a much earlier age than 12 anyway. Don't see the point of shielding them to what is so obviously a part of life as a human being. Not saying one should encourage it, but hey, there are quite a bit of middle ground here.
Supression usually leads to extreme expression in some way or other. Show them the respect they deserve, whether they are 12 or 90.
Just my 2 cents. I'm a single dad btw.
Krianna Oct 20th 2006 8:10AM
Folks should have enough control and common decency not to cuss too much. But both of those things are lacking in the Idiot Gamer segment of the population....
I was in an RP by email group when I was 14; going back, I can see that there was a lot of stuff that I said that would embarass me now-- but nothing that I'd be truly ashamed of, or that I wouldn't let my mother know I did.
Maybe someday folks will follow this simple rule: Don't do anything to strangers that you wouldn't want your mother to know about. ;^)
Hawk Oct 20th 2006 8:29AM
I have to say that although I am actually 15 myself, I quite often find myself not associating with other people of my age because they tend to be vulgar, nearly always unlegible (For ironical sake, did I spell that wrong?) and completely impossible to work with. I'll much prefer the company of adults or the older generation.
And my own 2 cents, I think the difference you often find in the attitude and behaviour in the younger kids/teenagers is often down to social class. I find alot of working class kids tend to act like complete idiots who throw swear words round like anything, whereas those kids that belong to a middle class family tend to be much better to work with, and often act like mature responsible adults.
Of course, I hope this doesn't offend anyone and I of course am ready to accept anyone's opinion to the contrary!
Lori Oct 20th 2006 10:05AM
Some of the kids posting here make a lot more sense that a lot of adults I play with. Concerning parents sheilding there kids: I could be that it is more being uncomfortable with the swearing in their and their kids presence. And being afraid that their kids would assume it is 'ok' if nothing is said. The kids are probably just as uncomfortable as the parents. I don't play video games with my kids anymore, but that would be our situation if I did.
Four letter words in guild chat, guild forums and on Vent annoys me, but not to the point where I would quit a guild over it. But I don't understand a couple of the guys that can't utter one sentence that doesn't contain at least one F***.
And I make it a point not to reveal my age either. I'm 61.
Swiftlydead Oct 20th 2006 10:55AM
We have 2 parents with kids in the guild and since the kids are already highschoolers, the parents dont care if we cuss or anything. In one of the cases, the parent had an emo fit and left the guild, but the kid stayed and is now one of our most valuable tanks. It's actually pretty funny. In the other case, the parent is one of, it not our single most constant raider, and boyfriend, her daughter, and her daugher's boyfriend are all in the guild too.
Deviationer Oct 20th 2006 11:05AM
"family" guilds suck.
simple as that.
Prauche Oct 20th 2006 11:20AM
I'm in a guild that is relatively strict over language. I almost didn't stay in b/c the first time I logged into their vent server I got told -- firmly, but not overly-aggressively -- that my phonetic was inappropriate and I needed to change it. It USED to be: "Some Dumba$$" (so that when I logged in and out it would say, "some dumba$$ has connected/left the server").
I wish, just once, after a senseless, didn't-have-to-happen wipe, I could blast out with one of my favorite movie lines of all time: What the F*** A$$ F*** of a Bum-F*** Sh**hole wipe was THAT? Ahhhh, hockey movies....
Alas, in my current guild you'll never hear that spew forth from my lips (until I choose to leave the guild....LOL). I'm so domesticated.
Prauche Oct 20th 2006 11:20AM
Oh yeah, I'm also a single dad.
Tryst Oct 20th 2006 11:45AM
Our main tank is 14-years old and is one of the most mature and focused people in the guild. He is, in fact, the one usually trying to keep us going after multiple wipes. Actually, several of our best players are in their early teens and they all rock. We have no restrictions on language and I actually am the one who forgets half the time that there are kids on the channel. They mostly ignore our fooling around and "just want to play!" Just like adults it depends on the person!
Xiera Oct 20th 2006 1:40PM
In the end, it all comes down to enjoyment and entertainment. I'm 20 and I don't enjoy hearing f' this and f' that, but, let's face it, some people use the word at every possible chance. It's not going to make me /gquit. I cannot say how I will be as a parent, however. I can see that some parents are very concerned about what their children are exposed to... and rightfully so. But there's only so much a parent can do to protect their kids, therefore they need to do the parenting aspect -- teaching, talking, etc. -- so that when their kids are exposed to these things, the kids will know how to respond or handle it.
homan2 Oct 20th 2006 2:38PM
By the time I was in second grade, my friends and I were all gleefully sharing all the 4 letter words we knew, and all the offensive combinations we could come up with by stringing these 4 letter words into 12 to 24 letter words. Had my parents heard any of this, I would have been in deeper trouble than the Fresh Prince.
Kids know these words already. Any notion that a parent can prevent their kids from learning foul languange by shielding them from /gchat is a bit naive.
-Gritz
P.S. As a matter of ettiquette, however; I keep my speech/typing PG rated.
Gamerz22 Oct 20th 2006 2:09PM
Truely, families are fine to have on WoW.
Language, well that is what profanity filter is for. If your excuse is that it does no good since they can figure what the sensored word is, then they KNOW what the word is and thus no reason to mask it unless your sensitive to seeing them. In which case, just use the profanity.
I personally am not a trash mouth. I do cuss, not gonna deny that, but as you see in my post, I'm not doing it now. I'm not one of the people they try to cuss in anytime I can, I only do so when necessary...
When it is necessary? When you need to get the point across. Saying "You silly nilly! Why did you flipin' aggro that guy?" would not get the point out as serious as "You dumb@$#%! Why did you @#$%in' aggro the boss!? You a &#$@in' weak &$% mage, not a tanker!". However, I don't try to use the f-word unless I'm angry... but the other words I use 30%-50% of the time.
So, family guilds are okay, all 'n all, if they are too young to know or see those horrored words, they are too young for WoW. Heck, your killing living things and decapitating leaders' heads, yet your concerned about language!? Be sure that the child is ready, it is like giving a 8 year old Grand Theft Auto, do you think they are ready to play?
Destroyer Oct 21st 2006 4:05AM
As a member of a fairly family friendly guild I've felt the annoyance before. One particular member had a son of about 13. He was a constant pain and since we were both rogues it was worse. He got more say over loot because his mom had more pull. I felt afraid to stick up for myself even though he had full Stormshroud and 4/8 Shadowcraft. Having little kids in the guild also means no causing over vent which is to say the least bullshit. I hate having to watch my language because little Johnny has no self-control.
Llyliwen Oct 27th 2006 2:26AM
I have to say i tend to agree with Gamerz22 on this one. I don't have any kids yet but I belong to a guild of mostly adults, some of whom have children in an "offshoot" of our guild. If I had children that played WoW I would be far more worried about things like violent and/or sexually explicit/suggestive conversation than simple cuss words! Profanity by itself, although perhaps not nice to hear, is far less damaging than either of these two other forms of communication.
Just my 2 cents.....