Forum Post of the Day: Where's the flavor?
by Elizabeth Harper 
Nov 19th 2006 at 4:30PM
This thread brings up an interesting point about the minute differences between the various races. As far as gameplay goes, rarely is there any significant advantage to playing one race over another. So where is the flavor? Shouldn't the different races have a different feel to them -- beyond different skin textures and flirts? Priests get special class abilities based on their race, so why not expand the idea to the other classes, and give each racial option a unique feel?
I would personally argue that the priest racial abilities are a complete failure, with several very powerful abilities and many useless or nearly useless abilities, causing constant conflict within the class. But that's not to say the concept is flawed, just that any such abilities would have to be very carefully considered.
Filed under: Odds and ends
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 1)
bk0 Nov 19th 2006 4:40PM
Its great to have variety in classes but it also makes for a lot of rerolls. When you first purchase the game you graze through the manual on the way home and a bit while the game is installing but then you want to jump in and play, not research which race is the best for which class.
Now of course you say balance the racials but between classes having unique talents and then unique builds within the classes its hard to add another layer of unique and be balanced.
I think they did a decent job with the racials. Just a little bit of flavor without going to far.
Burgdorn Nov 19th 2006 11:41PM
Fact of the matter is that flavor is a very personal definition in this sense... your not going to find Webster with a definition that will say that it must have every character having different spells. In this case flavor is largery based around starting locations, character appearance, and world wide locales in general.
Nothing really screams "Oh look a new desert for me to grind in." The deserts actually tend to have very different feeling in each one of them, and you will know this because if you take pictures of the Flats, Tanaris, and Silithus anyone who plays wow will be able to tell them apart. That is a good sense of flavor for the characters. Also Blizzard is attempting to make characters that are atleast "faith" based to have differences amongst them and I would hope that this trend continues into so that more will be seen different.
I'm just saying flavor exist in a lot of the game as a whole, just not entirely around the characters. As for the future we will see but the fact is that the game is designed to be more visceral then "dammit I should have picked a troll rogue!" type of game.
I still personally think they need to add more flavor in the visual characteristics of the game before going out and adding new abilities for every races' classes.
Sylythn Nov 19th 2006 5:54PM
This sort of thing is really a catch 22. They started with classes being distinct and unique...and people yelled that certain classes had major advantages in certain situations...so they got tweaked until there's not as much distinction as there used to be. You run into the same thing with the races...if you make them unique and distinct (essentially make it a truly game-important decision what race you play) then people will be yelling that certain races have significant advantages over others in certain situations. It's really a shame that people can't be made to make tough decisions that give you an edge in one area, and a weakness in another, without complaining about the weakness or others strengths.
That's one thing I've always felt is missing from RPGs, hard tough decisions that really make you pick one thing over another and affect the rest of the game for you. NWN2 is getting better at that, with the background talents each having negative affects - and with the main quest having truly polar opposite paths (clearly good vs. clearly evil) even if your character is playing something more neutral.
But then I know plenty of people who don't like the type of decisions where you either live with it, or have multiple saved games to go back and do it over.
Kyldorn Nov 20th 2006 12:11PM
Personally I'd like to see a bit more differentiation between the races. Taller races should be able to run faster than shorter ones, dwarves and taurens and orc should be stronger, elves and gnomes should be quicker. I'm sure you could think up ways in which each race could have an advantage and a disavantage.
I guess this dates me, but I go back to good old dice rolling D&D, and one of the things I liked about that is that there were differences between racial types. It made you do a little thinking up front about what you picked, 'cuz you were going to be stuck with it.
It just seems logical to me that a tauren might be able to get in a blow that knocked a gnome silly, but that the same gnome would be running circles around that taurens knees (stabbing away).
Ross Nov 19th 2006 7:32PM
Long post ahead, i'm positive about most of the BC changes, but the more I read the less interested I get and here is why.
I've been playing since release, many of the fun things I used to do I can't do anymore.
It seems to me that Blizzard is just systematically nerfing anything that is unique and different in an attempt to balance.
Don't get me wrong, some of these nerfs and changes are justified. But others are just nonsense that suck the fun out of the game.
Sure, mages get invisibility now. But is it fun? Nope. It's just an aggro reducer, whoopee.
Druids on the ptr now have a 1 second cooldown on their shifting, why? That kind of change will make me never want to play my druid ever again, and i've been playing since release (and we all know just how bad druids were back then). And the sad thing is, I love most of what they are doing right now to druids, but this one change is just too game breaking, it's not fun.
Then you look at the warrior rage nerf, and the oh so exciting 41 point arms talent that basically just unnerfs you. Whoopee, really makes me want to buy the xpac. The 41 fury talent is an...ap buff? It's useful, but is it exciting? Nope.
And then when they add pallies and shaman to both sides....they aren't even that unique!
Dranny shaman still have ghost wolf (what?) their armor sets are the same (understandable but don't some shaman armor have horde symbols?) and why is bloodlust/heroism the same? The only differences at all are the racials and the totem skins. So in other words, playing a dranny shaman is going to the exact same experience as playing a horde shaman, how boring is that?
Pallies are a bit better, but I think they should apply that kind of thoroughness to shaman (unique weapon quests, unique flavor text and unique abilities even if it's just one).
Sorry if that seems like a rant, but it seems like they are really pinning their hopes on expansion content like outlands and the arenas and other good additions to counteract all the nerfs they are making, and I don't think it will. I have a warrior and a druid, i'll probably level my warrior to 70 to see all the new content and pvp, but will I feel more interesting? Will the game keep me interested or will I just get bored at 70 like I am now at 60?
Remember when you could use the witch doctor and winterspring fire water and such to make yourself huge? Why take that away? Why have they ignored the faire for patch after patch?
When everyone is the same, what will be the point of playing really?
Hammer Nov 19th 2006 7:49PM
People shouldn't complain. In Star Wars Galaxies, there are no racial bonuses at all. The only things that make characters stand out is their appearance and language.
NGE Refugee right here.
Goerling Nov 19th 2006 8:16PM
NGE Refugee here too.
I think the game needs more flavor, and I like the idea of the diffrent racial spells for each class. When being a priest, I pondered over NE or human. I went with human, only to discover NE get a AoE spell! That made me mad. So maybe if they do what they did with the racials, and tell you before hand what the diffrent spells are. I think that would be great. The whole Pally/Shammy thing is stupid. Its actully helping us Alliance! Now, who gets the twink shammys??? Me and friends are twinking them out for sure. How many times have you alliance members groaned because shammys have been to powerfull and screamed "NERF SHAMMYS OMG!" I have... and now i get to be on the other end of the stick.
ephor Nov 19th 2006 8:39PM
Look, Fear Ward is broken, there's no point in getting a priest that doesn't have it. At least with this change, you'll have 2 races to choose from if you want the most powerful priest.
One day, down the road, when they balance racial exclusives, a distinct Draeni one would be nice. Until then, this is the only way to go.
Ross Nov 19th 2006 10:01PM
Thing is though, blizz is reducing how long cc lasts in bgs and arenas in the xpac, and have stated they plan on using fear much less in end game encounters in order to make fear ward less of a 'much needed ability'. While this is kind of nice, it again reinforces that blizz is slowly making the game bland. What's the point of having priest racials if none of them matter? Am I right?
But then they give it to drannies, and they know we'd all love to see bes and drannies both have 2 unique priest spells, but they don't want to balance that (they have enough balance headaches it seems).
And for post 5, ne don't get an aoe spell. Any priest > Ne priest. By far. You're fine.
freehugz Nov 20th 2006 1:53AM
wow, a 1 second delay on shapeshift makes you never wanna use your druid again? On my old pc my game used to lag one second when i shapeshifted.
Crazyivan Nov 20th 2006 2:05AM
I also think that WOW is getting more bland and usually its done in the name of balance (or "normalization" according to Blizz). Obviously there were certain abilities in the past that were far too powerful. However, I think those have been fairly rare. Also, there have been blatant bugs (like abilities not behaving as described). Both of those cases seem perfect for tweaking. However, I think now we're moving down a slippery slope of basically nerfing every aspect of every class in some way or another over time.
A few examples...
2H Warriors too good in PVP? Normalize rage generation
Rogues killing too many people by getting the drop on them? Nerf stealth.
Some pets better than others? Normalize pet attack speed.
Instead of making the game more interesting, this is making the game bland. How about buffing instead of nerfing? And, how about accepting that not all classes will be equal in all situations?
In WOW, I get the distinct feeling that innovation by players in ways that the devs did not imagine often causes a knee jerk reaction to punish those players under the guise of fixing an "exploit" or "overpowerment".
An example that comes to mind: ranged attack players are harassing the enemy faction in Gadz by shooting from rooftops.
Knee jerk reaction: Attacking from rooftops is against the rules!
Another example: Players are taking over enemy towns and preventing them from being able to turn in quests and function in town.
Reaction: Dishonorable kills. Now attacking a town is met with harsh penalties if you care about PVP.
These are not the creative solutions we should expect from Blizzard! These are bland ideas. Don't nerf the uniqueness out of classes, add more uniqueness. Yes, the game will not be as "balanced" (is it really balanced now?), but it will definitely be more fun.
Ross Nov 20th 2006 2:07AM
I might have exaggerated a bit, but the point still stands. There needs to be more variation.
I'll still get BC, but if it's just more of the same with just bigger numbers I won't be staying long.
And yeah, a one second delay, *on top of everything else* makes me not want to play my druid. I'll just play my warrior, and any visit to the warrior forums will let you know that they are none too excited about BC themselves.
boen Nov 20th 2006 2:19AM
An undead warrior has something like 5 different possible ways to break fear, STFU with your " rarely is there any significant advantage to playing one race over another"
uncaringbear Nov 20th 2006 2:42AM
Star Shards. Elune's Grace.
Ross Nov 20th 2006 3:43AM
Some people obviously didn't read the other comments. It isn't just about racials. It's about the game in general.
And I play an UD warrior. You get exactly 1 more way to break fear than a normal warrior, who already has more than he needs. It's nice yeah, but it's not overpowered. If you're a warrior you're not too worried about fear, period. Especially if you're fury (which I happen to be).
I just realized that I never considered the original question. Yes, I agree that priest racials are not balanced right. But that doesn't mean re-using old racials for new classes is good, and that doesn't mean they should nerf the good ones, but rather buff or change the bad ones. Yes, they've made changes before but more needs to be done. Right now it's very clear what the superior choices are, and players should feel like every class combo is viable in it's own, albeit unique, way.
I think racials for every class would be a good idea. 1 ability or two isn't gonna make or break anything, and it will be some much needed variety.
Inaraserra Nov 20th 2006 4:50AM
There's already an element of of racials in the game - just think of the flavor "Shadowmeld" adds to elves. Racials don't have to be a battle ability (although we'd all like it), just something unique about a race.
I'd love to see all gnomes with a 'hide' ability - they're so small, it should just be a class default :)
Or humans with some type of a 'determination' ability, whatever that would do - maybe give a slightly better chance to gain a level in professions?
Not really sure what the abilities should be - but it doesn't all have to be focused on battle. There's so much more to the game, and it would just add some variety.
Doodzin Nov 20th 2006 8:38AM
When I rolled a human priest I had no idea of the power of Fear Ward in end-game and how in demand it would be. Not that 5% spirit bonus is bad, with spiritual guidance and the best gear, nobody can outheal a human. I think they should give FW to all priests, and in return, take away all the other priest racials, which, in comparison, are weak. Or else, take FW completely out of the game.
I remember reading something on the forums from Drysc or Tseric saying giving racial class bonuses to priests was a mistake, so I wouldn't hold my breath that any other classes will ever get them.
Bunkai Nov 20th 2006 5:04PM
I agree with just about every post here. The general consensus is:
HEY BLIZZARD, NERF THE NERFFING IN THE NAME OF "BALANCE"!!!
There is nothing worse, IMO, for an MMORPG than to start out with truly unique classes and races, and then over time the development company "sells-out" to the n00bs that want to whine and complain because the race/class combo they chose wasn't the best.
Finding the best choice of race/class is all part of developing your own personal play style, IMO, and it shouldn't be the burden of the game developers to mix everything into a red fruit cocktail so that every taste has all the same flavors.
I like having the choice to drink Apple Juice, Grape Juice, or Berry Juice... when you make it all the same... it loses it's own identity.
We need to start a petition somewhere for Blizz to stop listening to the 15yr old n00bs that cry about their own inadequacies, and pay more attention to the gamers that actually know what they are doing, and who appreciate the necessity to make wise decisions when selecting race, class, and build. Those three decisions should be vital to game play, otherwise, you're just reading the story, not being part of it.
/end rant
Prauche Nov 20th 2006 11:57AM
I will note this about anyone referring to the unhappiness on the "forums":
In my few weak moments of trolling, I almost NEVER see positive posts. The "forums" are really just a bitch-fest and flame spot. I always question my sanity post-trolling. Have I ever seen a happy forum? Nope. Always negative.