Rogue weapon specs: mace rogue = PvP server?
by Eliah Hecht 
Dec 4th 2006 at 9:02PM
Some flavor of combat build is generally taken to be the easiest build for leveling a rogue. But once you get to the middle of the tree, you face a decision: which weapon type to specialize in? Fist Weapons is easily eliminated, since there just aren't that many fist weapons, pre-raid. That leaves dagger, for 5% extra crit chance; sword, for a 5% chance to get an extra attack on doing damage with the sword; and mace, for +5 weapon skill and a 5% chance to stun the target for 3 seconds when doing damage with the mace.While the swords play-style tends to revolve around Cheap Shot and Sinister Strike, dagger rogues lean more towards Ambush and Backstab. Why? Well, Sinister Strike is best with a high-average-damage (read: slow) weapon, and daggers are generally fast. And honestly, Backstab is a lot harder and more time-consuming to pull off in solo PvE than Sinister Strike. Sure, you can gouge and run through the mob, but it's so much easier to just stand there and whack it in the face with something big and sharp.
Between sword and mace spec, the 5% white damage increase (actually a bit greater, since it can proc off special attacks) from sword spec is believed to outweigh the incoming damage decrease offered by mace spec, and the +5 weapon skill for maces is just not that handy when not fighting mobs 3 levels above you. Higher level mobs are the rule in raids, but not elsewhere. Therefore, the edge in solo PvE goes to Sword Spec.
In group PvE, on the other hand, it's dead easy to get behind the mobs, since they're generally held in place for you by the tan. In fact, you should get behind the mob even if you're just going to use Sinister Strike, since when you do it from behind, they can't block or parry (though they can still dodge, and you can still miss). Since Backstab is easy to pull off in groups, and it does do more damage than Sinister Strike, dagger rogues tend to top the charts in raids and take the lead in group PvE.
That leaves one playstyle, PvP, and one weapon spec, Maces. Conveniently, it seems that mace spec is (slightly) the best-suited weapon spec for PvP, simply because stuns are very useful against other players, as a means of control. The same arguments as in solo PvE apply to drop dagger spec from the running, and the 5% more white dps that sword spec gives is just not as useful in PvP as a few random stuns are.
So, as a certain legendary thread might have put it, does mace rogue = PvP server? I hear mace rogues will smash faces in PvP...
Filed under: Rogue, Analysis / Opinion
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 1)
Roseroyce04 Dec 5th 2006 2:04AM
Mace rogues will smash faces in PvP.
Michael Dec 5th 2006 4:14AM
I am playing mace Rogue since 2005 and I love it. 1 Tinhg You have to be aware of. You totally lack burst damage. Of course there is Adrenaline Rush, but if You are in WSG the cooldown is just much too long.
It forced me to learn to PvP without cooldowns and I was quite good at it. The Mace proc is much too unpredicatble to be extremely useful and its of no use in PvE encounters.
You could also argue that in times of white damage crits of 1300 the extra sword swings from spec might really be that useless.
Anyway, I am mace rogue because I enjoy to be different and learned to live with its flaws and strengths.
Here is my complete writedown: Why the Hell play a Mace Rogue?
http://www.myrddin.de/2006/08/29/why-the-hell-play-a-mace-rogue/
http://www.myrddin.de/index.php?s=mace+rogue
Mace Rogue since 2005 ;-)
Tigraine Dec 5th 2006 4:28AM
Some corrections to the Post.
Daggers tend to be somehow fast weapons, but they would be still suited for Sinister Strike wouldn't there be that multiplier issue.
blizzard patched a year ago all Instant Melee Attacks to a fixed multiplier, Daggers only recieve a 1.7 Multiplier (Normalized Attackspeed, all Daggers have 1.7 Attackspeed when doing instants) while Swords and Maces recieve 2.4 Multipliers.
That's why it sucks to do sinister strike with Daggers!
One thing about PvP.
If you're out there to do PvP, there is no chance in Hell you get around Daggers if you're seriously into killing anything.
If you just want to do some stunlocks to let enemies be finished by allies youre into swords, but that lack of Burst Damage you face there will really get you into trouble when you are fighting alone.
For leveling Combat seems best, but you will have to get along without PvP, Swords and Maces just suck in PvP (as long as you don't have great Swords).
The Mace stun isn't that predictable that it will ever help you seriously on PvP combat, although it will make your life against mobs a bit more comfortable.
Still, Maces do suck big time. Get yourself good Swords or Maces to do the grinding, the increase on White Damage always makes up for that really bad Stun you recieve from Maces.
Once you get used to all that running and timing when doing Daggers you may also get along quite well while Grinding Mobs with Backstab/Stun Combos. Although I would never spec Combat for that playstyle. Seal Fate is imo a real must to any dagger rogue who is into fast killing.
Oh, and btw.. Yes .. You may have guessed, I'm playing a Rogue for 2 Years now and had to make that decision before.
Tigraine Dec 5th 2006 4:55AM
Oh.. and btw..
Gratz on your first Post on WoWInsider Eliah ;)
That Surname sounds German?
Eliah Dec 5th 2006 5:21AM
Thanks, I'm excited to be here. Yeah, my last name is of German origin, though I don't know much more about it than that.
You make some good points about PvP; PvP is pretty much my weak point as far as WoW is concerned. I just never really got into it. Thanks for the corrections!
Michael Dec 5th 2006 10:00AM
Well some comment to the post of Tigraine.
Even with Normalization a weapon with more maximum damage will do a higher Sinister Strike than a weapon with the same DPS and lower Maxmimum Damage. Take Gressil and Hungering Cold. 257 Max Damage vs 191 ... but both 73 DPS.
Also Your view on Maces is not very objective. I have been playing Mace Rogue intensively in PvP and it absolutely rocks versus Plate, Mail and Leather classes but the big weakness is cloth classes.
While Dagger Rogue has his strongest attack just once when he is in stealth a mace Rogue can do a steady DPS and is very well in Zerg situations.
I cannot count how many times a mace proc rescued me from a near death situation, how many times it has stopped a fleeing player and how many times it turned a fight.
I just see that I owned sword, dagger rogues, druids, pala's, shammies, warrior, hunter in duels with far inferior gear. And now with white dmage up to 1350 and Sinister Strikes of 1650 damage I really have to say that I do not miss daggers at all.
It really depends on how You prefer to play and the team You are with. While i am jealous at the burst damage from daggers and some skills they have I must say I really enjoy my Rogue. I used to laugh at maces myself, until I tried it and as You can see after way more than 200 days played I still stick to it.
Dahlaine Dec 5th 2006 10:37AM
I would like to add that having a mace rogue in 40 man pve situations can be a nice advantage as well. In both AQ40 and Naxx, there are many situations where stuns become vital to the success of the fight, (Anub, Sartura, Fankriss, etc..) and the mace proc, while not reliable for a precisely timed stun, is not on the same diminishing returns as the other rogue stuns and is quite nice because of it.
This WAS doubly important for the Horde, as we did not have the ranged, long duration Paladin stun hammers.
Tigraine Dec 5th 2006 11:15AM
@Michael
Yes, max-dmg still counts in. But even if you find a dagger out there with insane max-dmg (Remember that Barkeeper's Dagger from BRT? that time .. that was insane ;)) it will still do less damage than other swords/maces/fist weapons because it has a completely different multiplier that gimps Daggers on Sinister Strike.
I have been playing maces for some time myself, and I never really came into the PvP thing just because I was really lacking my Burst Damage.
Maces really gave me a quite nice Bonus with it's stuns, but whenever I needed it really hard it never procced. I mean, it seemed to proc only when the enemy was already stunned, or didn't proc at all :(
Daggers are always doing burst damage (except for Plate wearing Def-Tanks laughing at me while I hit em), Ambush still is the strongest attack a Dagger-Rogue has, but with the right Daggers you really smash faces with Backstab too. 1.4k Backstabs really still help you get your opponents down quite fast :).
Everything is about movement as a Dagger Rogue.. if you don't manage to get behind your opponent you've lost. If you manage .. everything will be ok ;)
Although, I must admit, Dagger Rogues where a lot harder back then when all people where dressed in greens and blues. One thing I always hated as a Dagger Rogue is the bad itemization on Daggers.
To get a boost in max-dmg you can go through whole BWL and almost full AQ till you get something that will make Perdition's Blade worthless.
At last something need to be said.
I like daggers for one thing:
They give you good DPS while being a lot more interactive to play in Raid situations. Swords/Maces/FistWeapons always bored me because of that "SS,SS,SS,SS,SS,Sn'D,SS,SS,SS..." .. it was really no thinking at all on some encounters, just stupid "stand there press that button" .. Somehow it would be fun to respec again and create a Sinister Strike macro for my G15 going afk on some encounters ;)
Daggers always required you to dance around the mob to do any damage at all (I hate Anub!) .. although Blizz really put uninteresting Raid-Content into the game with naxxramas. The first encounters there like Instructor, Maexxna, and Patch are just pressing 2 buttons for a given amount of time .. not very interesting imo.
greetings Tigraine
Bill G Dec 5th 2006 1:27PM
1. Leveling [or grinding] with daggers is not nearly as easy as leveling with swords/maces/fists. That's one reason folks may opt against daggers.
2. Given equivalent weapons, combat dagger spec will do the best raid damage, but it is completely gimped for PvP.
3. Raid damage for the other 3 combat specs generally runs fist > sword > mace, although the differences may not be large. Of these 3, mace has the stun wrinkle that makes it a bit better for PvP.
4. If you focus heavily on PvP, you don't do any of those builds. You either stunlock with hemo or spec dagger/seal fate before today's patch. After today's patch, there will be other options in Ass and Sub for heavy PvP builds.
Bottom line with most rogues is that main hand weapon quality can determine specs. Get a MH sword/fist/dagger/mace that's much better than your other alternatives, it's usually better to go sword/fist/dagger/mace spec regardless.
Michael Dec 5th 2006 4:51PM
And who needs 1,4k Backstabs with 1300 white Damage and 1600 Sinister Strikes ;-)
http://www.myrddin.de/wp-content/slant_buffed.jpg
http://www.myrddin.de/wp-content/slant_damage.jpg
Well to say Combat Dagger is the way to go is a little biased, while it really depends on the encounter. If you can stay in the back and do your backstab thingy without disturbance, then dagger rogues will own.
Any other encounter, especially with adds sword/mace combat build will be at least on pair with equally equipped dagger rogue.
In TBC there will be more and more fights, where its important to keep adds busy and then the extra stuns will help more than an extra sword swing ...
But as I said there is no best spec, it really all depends on personal playstyle. I love my Load-of-Stamina-Zerg-Pit-Fighter-Mace-Rogue over all and I am glad that WoW Insider took note of us. Thanks.
Hide-Eitrigg Dec 5th 2006 6:35PM
Many of these opinions here stated as "facts" are so wrong, it hurts...
Stuns are about control and damage mitigation, so if you're looking at minimizing downtime, going mace spec is not bad, especially if you take into consideration the costs of leveling -- good maces are dirt cheap in comparison to comparable daggers and swords. So, going Combat Maces would be good for grinding, outside of PvP.
And in regards to people saying daggers is the way to go for PvP, they're ignoring arguably the most successful PvP build, and the reason why most people (on the receiving end) HATE rogues: the hemo stun lock build, which implicitly is NOT a dagger spec.
As for PvP, people here are absolutely crazy to even consider the notion of any sort of Combat spec as a competitive PvP build. With a Combat spec, it's about who has better gear, as you have to stand there and go toe-to-toe. With a Sub stun lock build, it does not matter if you are in your pajamas wielding a gray toothpick and green dental floss, while your opponent is in full tier 2. If you have the lock, all that matters is burning down their HP before the stun chain ends.
rawr Dec 5th 2006 6:57PM
Mace spec is great for Pve not just pvp. The random stuns does what? Saves HP for the tank...delays attacks..shuts down possible casts...all this is beneficial to the group...specifically the meat shield and healer.
I believe sword spec is picked up not for the extra swings ...cause of the speed and dmg rating of the weapons at 60. Personally I have tried this spec and it's Ok for pvp one on one..but not my thing.
Daggerspec pve I guess yah the multiple backstabs does add up...But combat rogues frenzy_flurry with the right enchants and poisons can really give out Steady DPS and hit the top of dmg charts.
How come no claw love? YOu never mentioned those...speed of daggers..dmg of swords....If I could get my hands on two epic claws..i would totally switch out dagger for them and go combat spec. =)
anywho...I disagree with your view of Mace spec being Pvp... its good for pve ..very good.
To be honest I feel its the lesser of the 3 weapons for pvp..cause most maces are SLOW. And in pvp a rogue has seconds to kill before everyone and there mother shoots you down. SPeed isnt your friend with maces.
Eliah Hecht Dec 5th 2006 9:58PM
The reason I left fist weapons mostly out of it is because there's just not a lot of them (WoWHead has 29 in the whole game: http://www.wowhead.com/?items=2.13#00cz), and the good ones are hard to find.
Sliver Dec 7th 2006 8:33AM
Did anyone see Slant's attack power in that screenshot? over 2k.. With that kind of attack power and a dagger spec, unless your hemo, I will kill the mace rogue.
Backstabs wouldn't be 1.4k, more like 2.4k or higher.
RichWrinkle Dec 7th 2006 3:17PM
Please fill me in on how you get your attack power so high! Mine is 701 with two epic daggers and around 360-370 agility. If I can get 2000+ attack power with maces, please just let me know what maces and where I can get them.
Segane Dec 8th 2006 6:50AM
have a question..i am lvl 39 rogue twink with mace spec and i kinda can kill all classes in PvP, when i was ambusher then i didnt do so much dmg at all..just one 700 crip ambush and 400 crit backstab..but at lvl 39 there are more HP then 1100 then i just kinda got killed all the time, because in out off stealth i didnt do any dmg at all, but now in mace spec i can kill all classes..and now the question: before the patch i had 4 points in Dual Wield Spec. but now i put 2 points in Edurance and 2 points in new Blade Twisting..so do that Blade Twisting help a mace rogue..like the name says its twisting blades not maces..so hope some1 can help me with this
RawkzieX Dec 12th 2006 1:37AM
I love mace spec.
I leveled to about 40 with daggers and sublety...
Then I tried a lil' assassination and combat. First I went sword, I saw AMAZED how much easier and faster it was to kill mobs.
I saw how much cheaper maces were, and their tops ends we just as good as swords that would cost 3x as much. So I gave mace spec a shot.
High dmg + that stun, and I swear it would proc at the best time, right after a Kidney Shot or Cheap Shot...
Unfortunatly I went swords at 60 for lack of good maces, I am currently not spec'd for any weapons, but use a sword MH dagger OH.
"It really depends on how You prefer to play and the team You are with. " ~ Says it all if you ask me. Some like to sneak up hit big and be done, but some like to be able to sneak up and have battles of epic proportions ;). I hate relying on stealth, and yes, I've tried a warrior, but it's just not the same. I like being able to be a little sneaky now and then, but to rely on being sneaky... Meh. I can't wait to get a mace (prob the GM one even though it looks horrible in my oppinion.)
I was thinking about going hemo-mace, I've seen some hard hitting ones around, but I'm thinkin' I'll try some new things in combat first. ;)
jeanajamesin-Malorne Feb 5th 2007 1:02PM
You guys are getting there. You are supposed to go sword MH and dagger OH but only after the ambush crit instant dmg. Think about your rogue and utilize every ability he has. If he can do insane dmg burst in the beg. of the battle lets do it and to finish it off we switch weapons from MH dagger OH sword and swap them to MH sword OH dagger and just sinister strike and rupture/eviscrate so we can do more dmg than the dagger with the abilities and sword.
All you need is a Macro and I got mine at:
http://www.wowwiki.com/Item_equipping
This is the macro I use to switch any MH and OH to the other spot:
/script if ( not CursorHasItem() ) then PickupInventoryItem(17); PickupInventoryItem(16); end
Its short and I love it, the site has more info about it.
Then comes poisons
Poison combos:
1. sword deadly poison, dagger deadly poison
you can DOT like crazy with this poison and after a couple of seconds of them taking DOT, at 5 doses just envenom them and let the poisons just build back up while you sinister strike and rupture in the beg.(thats what I do) and the rest just ss and evis with adrenaline rush and improved slice n dice going.
I like using this alot for pvp and pve farming.
Dot is just so deadly..
2. sword instant poison, dagger crippling poison
this is good for slowing them down so they cant run and you can gouge and blind them now safely without dot poison or rupture on but should still have a hemorrhage on them. I sometimes like using this in pvp.
3. sword mind-numbing poison, dagger crippling poison
it slows down there casting speed and movement speed there are 6 casting classes. mage,priest,warlock,druid,shaman,paladin
if they ever get away from you and stun, fear, slow, freeze you they'll still have a longer casting time by 60% and run slower.
The great thing about rogues is you should be using all of these combos. Depending on the class your fighting, while your in stealth mode you can change your poisons without breaking stealth. change em up a lil in the arena while stealthed and swap those weapons so you can ambush and get the most of your s.s. with the macro.