Healing classes and DPS gear in raids
by Elizabeth Wachowski 
Dec 14th 2006 at 11:00AM
Earlier today, I had a ten-minute argument with a former druid about healers and DPS gear in raids. The basic question of the argument was "Under a generic, fixed-price DKP system, should a healing-specced hybrid get equal priority for a DPS item as a DPS class?"
As an example, you are running BWL with your guild. You kill Ebonroc and the Ebony Flame Gloves drop. Who gets it, a disc/holy priest with slightly more DKP who wants them to PVP with, or a warlock who will raid with them? Does the Ashkandi go to warriors before holy paladins? And what about the nightmare that is prioritization on the Drake Fang Talisman?
My druid friend argued that:
- Healing is a thankless job that is worth nothing outside of raids, so healers should get equal bidding priority on DPS items for farming and PVP.
- DPS classes who want priority on DPS loot are using healers to get new gear and then not rewarding them.
- Keeping your healers happy is very important, since there's a greater risk of healing burnout and healers ditching for another guild.
- If you've earned the DKP, you should be able to spend it on things that will benefit your class as a whole, not just your raiding group.
- Non-healers can never understand what it's like to be a healer.
As a rogue, I pointed out that:
- If someone is raiding as a feral druid/elemental shaman/retribution paladin, they should have equal priority on DPS gear, but giving DPS gear won in raids to healers as PVP toys instead of classes that will use it on future raids hurts the raiding group as a whole.
- There is a lot of gear that is specifically designed for offspecs in AQ40 and the 20-man instances, and PVP gear can be obtained through ... PVP.
- Healers can get DPS gear when the DPSers have gotten first dibs. If you have an instance on farm for a while, it won't take very long for healers to begin getting their damage gear.
- If you're really not happy healing and are only doing it for the purplez, I don't want you in my raid group because you're going to ditch raiding and go PVP as soon as you get what you want from the guild.
- Certain healers need to get off their crosses, because the rest of us could use the wood.
After a while, we decided that we could never come to a reasonable solution to the problem in a zero-sum DKP system. But it makes me wonder how other players handle this, especially raid leaders and healers.
Does your guild let healers have equal access to damage loot, or is it prioritized for raiding damage-dealers? If you're a healer, do you wish you could grab that first Corrupted Ashbringer or Staff of the Shadow Flame, or will you hold off for later?
Thanks to Sloppy, Shado and Sark for help with the itemization of this post.
Filed under: Druid, Paladin, Priest, Shaman, Items, Analysis / Opinion, Guilds, Instances
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 3)
Chad Dec 14th 2006 11:13AM
Its okay, Azuresong Mageblade went to a paladin last week when three mages and 2 warlocks wanted it... I understand its good for healing, but its much better suited for a Mage or Lock.
Mike Dec 14th 2006 11:22AM
I have always hated this "It's a weapon! You can't roll or bid on it!"
If I fought my way down to a mob just like you did, why should you be able to insist priority over it?
You might as well apply the same logic to items that are bigger upgrades for one person over another, if you're only concerned with getting items 'for the good of the raid'... Give all the epics to the newbie raiders that are decked out in greens; after all, they can use it more than you can if it's just going to replace one of your many purple items...
If you get outbid on something, take it like a man. Don't be a sore loser and cry foul just because of who beat you.
Ken Dec 14th 2006 11:26AM
For your druid friend: He is rewarded with healing gear. DPS classes are "rewarded" with DPS gear to help the raid. In most cases, DPS gear to a hybrid/druid does not help the raid as much as it would to a specialized DPS class. If he can't be a happy healer maybe he should switch classes.
PvP toys shouldnt be handed out in a raid group that wants to actually PROGRESS at a reasonable speed. Handing out items to main raiders that "want" them over main raiders that NEED them only slows down the overall raid progress.
All of this is in the ideal point of view that people will grab and not grab items for the best of the raid group.
And for reference..my main is a 60 resto-specced druid.
Ken Dec 14th 2006 11:34AM
@Mike..
Your second paragraph would be ideal. If you wanted to actually progress as fast as possible and you had people in greens and blues in your raid...that's what it would take. Give them the awesome upgrades. Of course they would have to have shown commitment though. Handing out "free epics" to guildies who won't stay in the guild is very detrimental. But yes, that's ideally what would happen if you wanted your guild to improve and progrss at the fastest rate possible. If they are committed players, I'm always ready to do what's best for the raid not for myself even if it means passing on an item to someone else that I trust completely.
Matt Dec 14th 2006 11:27PM
If they want to spend the DKP for it, I dont understand why you wouldnt let them have it. They earned it, same as everyone else, let them take it.
bliSSter Dec 14th 2006 11:38AM
I agree that raid-healing is generally a pretty thankless and monotonous, uninteresting job. But I don't think healing-spec'd classes should be getting equal footing on dps items. It does hurt your raids. Could it be useful to them? Almost certainly, especially when we stop and consider most, if not all of us, will be out leveling to 70 and not raiding in a month.
P.S. Some of the arguments listed don't hold water.
The reason this healer wants the DPS gear is because he's getting rooked when he's out trying to solo or farm mats. If your DPS classes aren't helping the healing classes farm, then your "for the good of the guild" argument falls apart. The healer can't solo/farm as easily or as efficiently, yet they're spec'd healing for the "good of the guild". The DPS classes need to buck-up and also take one for the team instead of dueling outside of IF/ORG or nancing about in WSG.
Also, the "PVP-gear should be gotten through PVP" argument doesn't really support you either. If that healer is out PVPing, he's not going to be in the raids keeping your DPS classes alive so they can get more DPS gear...gear that is useful to them in PVE, PVP, as well as solo farming/grinding.
Just my 2copper. :P
Gist Dec 14th 2006 11:46AM
I've played DPS and Healing, and I feel about DKP and Healing gear the same playing either class...
Healing Gear only helps the raid. If the tanks want to stay alive, they need to spend their DKP to buy me healing gear. I'm spending my DKP stealing DPS gear from the mages.
ChrisM Dec 14th 2006 11:47AM
How many full raiding healers do you know are loaded with money? I don't mean a couple hundred. I mean several thousand. Does anyone other than a healer honestly know what it takes to keep a decent income as a raiding healer? Have you tried to kill anything as a full healing class? It takes a very long time to accomplish the task and the ability to gain a steady income via grinding solo is not an option. You are then forced to rely on everyone else to obtain money for you via killing in the other 5-10 man instances and hoping you win the loot.
I'm no healer but 2 of my friends and my wife is a healer for raids and I can see it first hand how broke they are when they are buying potions to keep the raid alive or just constantly repairing their gear at 15g per full repair. So unless you are tipping your healers after every raid I would let them have that equal chance to win loot that will help them stabalize their income in the game.
Ken Dec 14th 2006 11:53AM
Wait. So Gist, youre saying tanks should not only be spending DKP tanking gear but on your gear to heal too? Why stop there? Why shouldn't they have to pay for DPS gear for the DPSers so they wont be killed if the healers oom? Are you coming from a functional guild?
Thomas Dec 14th 2006 7:03PM
There's an interesting twist on this argument coming from my raiding alliance - the Hunters due to recent changes in how the class works are eyeing the Ashkandi as a possible prioritized loot item. Naturally the Warriors are fairly up in arms about it and I don't blame 'em (I'm a Warrior myself, though dual sword spec). Honestly I don't think zero sum discussions ever end well though. :)
Tarcash Dec 14th 2006 12:02PM
OK, so I have a 60 priest and a 60 warrior. You know when I get asked to raid, I always get a request to bring my priest, because there aren't many healers hanging around. I "take one for the team" all the time, going is as healer because there are so few. I never get to DPS, so all my DKP goes for healing gear while my warrior is doing nothing except holding one purple.
healers need help if they heal exclusively. By not giving them something for DPS when they want to PvP or whatever, and not helping when they ask... hrm, I wonder why my guild has fewer and fewer healers.
Kryz Dec 14th 2006 12:05PM
I think there needs to be a certain level of discussion on which class an item is better suited to.
Example:While spell damage is nice for a priest if they decide to pvp or something, it's EVERYTHING to a lock or especially a mage.
I've never liked the DKP system, because it leaves it open to people getting stuff that would be better for another class, just because they have a few extra DKP. I like the guilds that are mature enough to have a set of class leaders, and they decide who needs it more, and the guild accepts that.
Brad Dec 14th 2006 12:06PM
The hardcore raiding guilds will always argue for the raid, casual or lite raiders will always argue for the individual. I'm so tired of this argument. You should know the guilds policy before you join. This is all a moot point, because in the expansion, they solved the problem, and there are multiple sets for hybrid classes that you earn like the PvP system. They don't drop, you collect the mats/tokens/etc and buy them from a vendor.
Prauche Dec 14th 2006 12:08PM
A: This is why I am not in a DKP guild.
B: This is why I don't play hybrid classes. (You're a healer whack-a-mole, right? Oh, you're feral/elemental. Sorry, we have tanks and DPS, we need healers.)
C: This is why I don't play healers. (How do you think that healer whack-a-mole made it to 60 in the first place you TARD!?!?)
Closed-mindedness is very unattractive
Krianna Dec 14th 2006 12:12PM
*snort* That is why I will not raid and do the DKP junk. You fight like a dog to keep 40 people alive, then they say you're not allowed to do anything but get better at healing? Up yours.
My DKP should spend the same as yours-- it's a question of guild quality that folks don't do foolish things, say, a warrior buying a cloth headset because it looks nice.
I usually play healing classes, but I prefer to spec them so they are soloable-- if I sacrifice my gameplay to help the raid, the raid had bloody well better scratch my back a bit, too.
Darkwarder Dec 14th 2006 12:13PM
In the end, the biggest concern should be fairness. Is it fair if a warrior with -150 DKP has priority over a druid with +200 DKP (in a zero sum DKP system)? How would this happen? Maybe the warrior got more than his share of loot and/or the druid has participated in more raids. Think about it, you aren't competing with druids for gear that often. Leather drops in raids tend to be class specific.
Farming is a big part of raiding. Don't discount the need for the healers to do something outside of the raid.
And, if you treat any raider as having less value, your raid will fall apart. As far as raiding goes, the demand exceeds the supply for healers. Try to keep them happy.
And for reference..my main is a 60 resto-specced druid.
forzaq8 Dec 14th 2006 12:19PM
an easy fix to all this
use dkp and pay with your DKP
i got the first ashkandi drop for our guild and i was a paladin because i outbided every warrior ( who spent the dkp on the untamed blades :P )
Darkwarder Dec 14th 2006 12:22PM
Oh, and one other thing to consider...ever see a raid called for a lack of rogues?
Donner Dec 14th 2006 12:33PM
Healing Gear only helps the raid. If the tanks want to stay alive, they need to spend their DKP to buy me healing gear. I'm spending my DKP stealing DPS gear from the mages.
-Gist
All I can say to that is screw you! You know thats the biggest asshole comment Ive ever heard. Tanks need gear ALOT and you dont think about this from the tanks perspective. A tank does just as much work as you and without us you'd die in 2 hits.
it's a question of guild quality that folks don't do foolish things, say, a warrior buying a cloth headset because it looks nice.
-Krianna
Umm thats just dumb Ive never ever seen that happen not once I mean come on!
I myself say that Darkwarder makes a really good point "if you treat any raider as having less value, your raid will fall apart." This is the best comment on the freaking page it actually works.
Skew Dec 14th 2006 12:37PM
My opinion is that if there is an issue on loot priority, then the guild needs to establish the rules and make them known and follow them in all cases.
The Drake Fang Talisman does the same thing for everyone who equips it. It increases AP, +hit, and +dodge. It does this for a priest, a rogue, a hunter, and a druid. Everyone gets the same buffs from it, and everyone can equip it. If a guild does not have a rule that this goes to melee classes first, then its free game. I just know when I'm on my lock, I'm saving dkp for a Neltharion's Tear instead, but if I'm on my warrior, then I'd gladly spend my dkp here.
Loot is loot, and everyone wants it. Druids can heal, tank, nuke, and melee, and they should have gear sets for all 4 forms for situational combat. Paladins CAN tank, Priests CAN dps, Shaman CAN nuke. To say they are only healers is to miss out on some great diversity.