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The latest patch 5.4 newsHealing classes and DPS gear in raids
by Elizabeth Wachowski 
Dec 14th 2006 at 11:00AM
Earlier today, I had a ten-minute argument with a former druid about healers and DPS gear in raids. The basic question of the argument was "Under a generic, fixed-price DKP system, should a healing-specced hybrid get equal priority for a DPS item as a DPS class?"
As an example, you are running BWL with your guild. You kill Ebonroc and the Ebony Flame Gloves drop. Who gets it, a disc/holy priest with slightly more DKP who wants them to PVP with, or a warlock who will raid with them? Does the Ashkandi go to warriors before holy paladins? And what about the nightmare that is prioritization on the Drake Fang Talisman?
My druid friend argued that:
- Healing is a thankless job that is worth nothing outside of raids, so healers should get equal bidding priority on DPS items for farming and PVP.
- DPS classes who want priority on DPS loot are using healers to get new gear and then not rewarding them.
- Keeping your healers happy is very important, since there's a greater risk of healing burnout and healers ditching for another guild.
- If you've earned the DKP, you should be able to spend it on things that will benefit your class as a whole, not just your raiding group.
- Non-healers can never understand what it's like to be a healer.
As a rogue, I pointed out that:
- If someone is raiding as a feral druid/elemental shaman/retribution paladin, they should have equal priority on DPS gear, but giving DPS gear won in raids to healers as PVP toys instead of classes that will use it on future raids hurts the raiding group as a whole.
- There is a lot of gear that is specifically designed for offspecs in AQ40 and the 20-man instances, and PVP gear can be obtained through ... PVP.
- Healers can get DPS gear when the DPSers have gotten first dibs. If you have an instance on farm for a while, it won't take very long for healers to begin getting their damage gear.
- If you're really not happy healing and are only doing it for the purplez, I don't want you in my raid group because you're going to ditch raiding and go PVP as soon as you get what you want from the guild.
- Certain healers need to get off their crosses, because the rest of us could use the wood.
After a while, we decided that we could never come to a reasonable solution to the problem in a zero-sum DKP system. But it makes me wonder how other players handle this, especially raid leaders and healers.
Does your guild let healers have equal access to damage loot, or is it prioritized for raiding damage-dealers? If you're a healer, do you wish you could grab that first Corrupted Ashbringer or Staff of the Shadow Flame, or will you hold off for later?
Thanks to Sloppy, Shado and Sark for help with the itemization of this post.
Filed under: Druid, Paladin, Priest, Shaman, Items, Analysis / Opinion, Guilds, Instances
Reader Comments (Page 2 of 3)
Apocolipto Dec 14th 2006 12:41PM
This is the reason I only play with a small group of Well rounded friends. Well all take what we need and give what we can. If You want It and I dont need it I'll be Glad to give it away even if it was the greatest Item EVER TO EXSIST... Im not using it and its not bound to me sure go for it. Everyones so worried about Items and all this other junk to realize what this is. Its a game, games are made to have fun, They are made as MM to increase the fun we can have as a group insted of creating a totaly recluseive world. So if your running around arguing who should get what items then ur spending to much time worried about insignificant facts.. I take what I need even if you needed it.
Lao Dec 14th 2006 1:03PM
"Healing is a thankless job that is worth nothing outside of raids, so healers should get equal bidding priority on DPS items for farming and PVP."
So healing is worth nothing in PVP? That statement is laughable. Anybody who has been in or been up against an organized team knows how important good healers are.
I agree with #11. Hopefully the token system will pretty much do away with the need for DKP.
Pougen (ER) Dec 14th 2006 2:16PM
Some of these comments are a prefect example of why Blizzard downsized the instance requirements. The only time I have had any bad experiences in game were because of jerks who ignored the desires of others in a raid because such and such was "for the good of the raid".
If you work as a team and enjoy the company of the others in your group, well and good (no matter how you view DKP and loot). One thing I didn't catch is the roleplaying aspect. What if someone wants a piece because they think it looks good on their character, and they want it for something outside the raid? Granted, this does not help the raid, but enriches the playing experience.
If someone of the appropriate class wants the item for raiding, I don't think it's unreasonable for them to have dibs on it, but otherwise, if someone wants to spend their DKP for that item, who cares?
Jason Dec 14th 2006 1:19PM
If you want to raid with a DKP system, then take the good with the bad. DKP is there to distribute loot in a certain fashion, and if you've earned DKP, you've earned the right to spend it however you want.
If you want to set up a priority system, then have a loot distribution that allows for that. DKP systems, Zero Sum especially, don't account for class/role priority.
Beyond that, it's all having expectations. You can't honestly expect someone to take nothing but healing gear. As was mentioned, you can't solo in healing gear, with a spec designed around healing a 40 man raid in the most efficient manner possible. It's simply not plausible.
Ultimately, it comes down to this: Do you want to raid for progression, or for loot? If you want to raid for progression, then DKP systems aren't needed. DKP systems are about raiding for loot, not raiding for progression. If you want to raid for progression, with out the drama you outline so clearly here, then use an officer distribution system. Loot drops are looked at case by case by the officers, decisions are made on who gets a shot at what, and loot is distributed. That way, loot is prioritized by officers for specific roles; If you're filling a healing role, then you get healing gear. DPS role, you get DPS gear.
Fearless Dec 14th 2006 1:13PM
I raid with an alliance of several guilds, and we've attempted to solve that problem by having a zero-sum DKP system along with a "class priority" list, there to ensure that the loot goes where it will most benefit the raid. The system doesn't always function perfectly, but there is surprisingly little loot drama. We are gearing up quite nicely and making good progress.
I've also raided a few times with some friends in a raiding guild, who have a set of leaders distributing the loot, and that works well for them too. But such an arrangement can only work in a guild (not an alliance) where people trust their leaders with such choices.
Mark Dec 14th 2006 9:59PM
Mine, mine, mine! Gimme the phat lewt!
Raiding is all about greed man.
Kaziel Dec 14th 2006 1:37PM
I believe, that to a degree, healers should get the option of getting melee or +damage gear if they desire. But I also believe certain pieces of gear should have priority towards certain classes.
For example, Aged Core Leather Gloves ( http://wow.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?witem=18823 ) should be prioritized for rogues before a feral druid ever sees them. While many of the stats are ideal for feral druids, the +5 dagger skill is a rare and almost irreplaceable stat for raiding. And even then, a feral druid wouldn't use the +dagger skill in catform (or bear form) even if they were equipped with a dagger. My feeling is that certain stats that are rare and powerful in raids should be prioritized for certain classes. These stats are +weapon skill, +spell to hit, and possibly normal +to hit.
I also feel that armor types should be prioritized towards the class that it's the heaviest armor for. For example, some very nice +healing leather armor drops. Every druid should get priority for it before a Paladin or a Shaman is even considered to be available for bidding. Another example would be using the Aged Core Leather Gloves again, in this case a dagger wielding warrior goes for them. He should have to wait until every Rogue has had his or her shot at them.
Finally I believe melee weapons should be prioritized for melee classes first (including Enhancement Shamans, Ret and Prot Pallies), and ranged weapons prioritized towards hunters first. This is because weapons are the biggest boost to power a person can get, and a DPS or tank's power is what helps progression (thus allowing for faster aquisition of loot).
Also, as a side note, I believe a certain amount of tracking of what rewards bought is in order. While I'm all for healing classes getting gear that will help them solo, they also need to think of the raid as a whole. While denying them the chance to get gear to help farming is definately something that should be done (gotta cover those repair bills some how), getting gear that will help you keep the tank or your party members alive should be a priority as well. Let's say someone joins the guild and starts raiding. They are a holy spec paladin, but the first item they bid on is a DPS plate. At this point a big red flag would go up in my head... so I'd start watching them to see what they bid on next. If it's a INT or mana regen or +healing mace, hey... no biggie. On the other hand, if it's more DPS plate, then words need to pass with this guy.
Druid dude Dec 14th 2006 1:29PM
Keep it simple I say. Let the DKP do the talking, period. A non fixed price bid system helps too.
Players that make poor gear choices and too many unwise DKP expenditures will eventually be outplayed by others in their class who have spent their DKP wisely, and probably won't be seeing an many raids. Let things sort themselves out naturally.
The more that artificial restrictions are placed on something that should be a very natural and evolutionary process, the screwier things get and the more drama is produced.
tomhennessy Dec 14th 2006 1:44PM
I've been in guilds that aimed to "get everyone loot." They did not get past MC -> they became places where people farmed some loot and moved to a real guild. And that's fine, if that's the goal of the guild. If everyone is happy farming MC and seeing their best people leave, cool. That's your niche in the raiding ecology.
If you want to progress, you prioritize. This does NOT mean that you give DPS gear only to DPSers. This means you give Raid gear to Raiders. You create a priority stack with (Raider and Raid Gear)>(Raider and Non-Raid Gear)>(NonRaider and Raid Gear). That Mageblade only does the Raid good if it's in the hand of a DPS caster who will be there a lot and knows their job. If they don't need it, go ahead and reward your Raiding Pali. If they don't want it, you can give it to the new guy, or the guy who only shows up to raid once a month. Everyone is happy, and everyone is rewarded in terms of their benefit to the raid.
curandera Dec 14th 2006 2:09PM
I'm a healbot specced 60 priest (and leveled like this). I love to PvP for the change of scenery and have my base PvP set--it took a long time to acquire pre-patch, and post patch--takes even longer for me to acquire gear since I did not receive the same upgrades to damage output that certian other classes did!
I am regularly broke, and but for a kind guildie who often floats me gold for candles, pots, etc. I would never be able to cover my repair bills. I am not a solo-able farmer.
I'm fortunate to be in a guild with a feral tank--so the concept of rolling on gear that has multiple applications is not completely lost on us. The feral often sports "rogue gear"--and I like to roll on the "lock gear" so I can actually kill things more quickly.
Of the PvP gear out there, I think the priest gear is the lamest, with the exception of the GM staff. The mana regen on the base PvP armor is good, the +dam and +heal are great--but with no spirit to add to the +mana regen, well it's kinda lame. The GM set is likewise hampered by this, with lower +mana regen stats but a higher buffed int pool to try to regen!
So you bet I'm going to roll on +dam and + heal gear--not because of my love for PvP, but because I don't live in a raid 24/7 and I need to kill things like everyone else.
How many of you accompany your squishy healbots wherever they want to go and help them farm? Yeah, just like I thought...I've accompanied warriors, rogues, warlocks, mages, hunters, druids and even pallies so they can safely complete quests, helped them farm faster, with no other seeming benefit to me, except for the good feelings I get from helping guildies, friends, and often complete strangers...if you don't want to be my full time babysitter outside the raid then stop complaining about the +dam and +healing gear I'm rolling on.
Osy Dec 15th 2006 11:44AM
In a DKP system, you spend your points based on the time you have dedicated to the guild. If it is an item that is useful to you, you should be able to roll on it.
Most healers, and especially hybrid healers, spec for healing because its "for the good of the guild." They sacrifice their spec for the guild, they should at least get some loot to make up for that. I think the same goes for prot spec'd warriors who want to roll on DPS gear as opposed to tanking gear.
If you believe in doing whats best for the guild, then drop your rogue and roll a healer spec priest. Most guilds need more priests than rogues, so that would be best for the guild.
And if you make all your druids who are forced to be resto spec'd roll only on healer items, then they are going to get burned out, roll a rogue, and then you will have that many more people to compete against for DPS gear and your guild will be stuck doing the same raids because you dont have enough healers to progress.
Gamerz22 Dec 18th 2006 2:42AM
"So healing is worth nothing in PVP? That statement is laughable. Anybody who has been in or been up against an organized team knows how important good healers are."
In 9/10 cases, unless your a premade, your not gonna be in an organised group.
Druids should get a fair say in DPS, as long as they are feral. If thye are more resto, like your friend said, why so much DPS? Go feral if you want DPS.
For those that keep thinking a hybrid is just a poor healer, that is false and to those whom said hybrids can only heal, that is greatly false. Feral Druds can crit up to a 2k-3k in cat, and around 1k-2k in bear. We need DPS items to get crits up.
Many who roll Druid love it for the class diversity. We can heal, DPS, or even tank if needed. It allows more than just one roll in a group, while not having us better than the classes we imitate, it brings us close enough. We should have a fair roll on such gear.
I agree with Elizabeth Wachowski on this one. Her Druid guy is a resto, thus DPS gear/items should be last priority.
Yeah... QQ healers. You heal, so you get healing gear unless agreed before the raid.
Gamerz22 Dec 14th 2006 2:55PM
"So healing is worth nothing in PVP? That statement is laughable. Anybody who has been in or been up against an organized team knows how important good healers are."
In 9/10 cases, unless your a premade, your not gonna be in an organised group.
Druids should get a fair say in DPS, as long as they are feral. If thye are more resto, like your friend said, why so much DPS? Go feral if you want DPS.
For those that keep thinking a hybrid is just a poor healer, that is false and to those whom said hybrids can only heal, that is greatly false. Feral Druds can crit up to a 2k-3k in cat, and around 1k-2k in bear. We need DPS items to get crits up.
Many who roll Druid love it for the class diversity. We can heal, DPS, or even tank if needed. It allows more than just one roll in a group, while not having us better than the classes we imitate, it brings us close enough. We should have a fair roll on such gear.
I agree with Elizabeth Wachowski on this one. Her Druid guy is a resto, thus DPS gear/items should be last priority.
Yeah... QQ healers. You heal, so you get healing gear unless agreed before the raid.
Bloodmagick Dec 14th 2006 3:43PM
In my guild (technically, we have a sister guild, so I'm counting them in this as well, since their GM is who I'm about to speak of), we allow varied specs, as long as you understand that the cookie-cutter specs are going to take priority in a raid. If we have 5 priest slots, and 5 holy/disc priests show up, sorry, but you shadow-priests are prolly not going to get a spot unless we have extras.
Not to say we want people to spec a certain way for raids, the GM of our sister guild is a Shadow Priest, and is in almost all of our raids, and makes life a lot easier. They usually just throw him in a group with us locks, and though VE, we stay alive, he stays alive, and the bosses go down. But when it comes time to roll on gear, he is included with us locks and mages. He rolls on DPS gear. We are of the opinion that everyone in a raid knows their place, and knows what kind of gear helps them best fill that role. Hybrid classes make it known to the guild, before we raid, what spec they are, and that spec is what we gear them towards. You won't see many Enhancement Shammies bidding on Earthfury if the Resto ones aren't in 8/8. Feral Droods (all 1 of them) don't bid on Cenarion. Yes, people will whine sometimes that they aren't as geared. But that's why we run AQ20 and ZG, to get the "alternative" specced people good gear. Basically, MC, BWL, and (presumably, we're not there yet) Naxx are your "Cookie cutter" gear drops, while AQ20 and 40, and ZG are your "other" specs. Besides, we all know that if you raid extensively, you are either there for the good of the raid or not raiding. No one would actually spend 4-8 hours every week in MC if they weren't trying to get to Ony and BWL afterwards. And to do that, the raid has to function a certain way, and some people are going to have to "take one for the team". It sucks, but that's the way the real world works, and the way WoW raids work is no different. Everyone has their part to play. Play it, gear towards it, and make progress as a group. Gear towards what everyone wants for themselves, and no progress is made.
Zodius Dec 14th 2006 3:51PM
Well i think there's alot of counter argument for your post:
-If someone is raiding as a feral druid/elemental shaman/retribution paladin, they should have equal priority on DPS gear, but giving DPS gear won in raids to healers as PVP toys instead of classes that will use it on future raids hurts the raiding group as a whole.
In the first place how many raid will bring a feral druid/elemental shaman/retribution paladin instead of a healer? and although ur 2nd pt is valid, then what about some 2hand weapons like askandi? tank warrior will not be wielding it while most paladins are for healing in raids, not to mention those +dmg/healing gears that are fancy by casters.
-there is a lot of gear that is specifically designed for offspecs in AQ40 and the 20-man instances, and PVP gear can be obtained through ... PVP.
Are you telling the healers to stop raiding in guild and go for pvp? well some really did that, and that's one of the reason why there's a shortage of healers for raids too.
-Healers can get DPS gear when the DPSers have gotten first dibs. If you have an instance on farm for a while, it won't take very long for healers to begin getting their damage gear.
You are so wrong about this.... unless you have a fix group of people, this will never work out for the healers. for example item X drops that +dmg/healing and the guild policy states that is mage priority. This means a new comer mage will still get the item even when there's a priest that has 100% raid attendance, and from my raid experience, there will always be new people coming into the raid as time passes, so in essence there will almost never be a time that "all mages will have item x" and thus priest will never get his turn for the item.
-If you're really not happy healing and are only doing it for the purplez, I don't want you in my raid group because you're going to ditch raiding and go PVP as soon as you get what you want from the guild.
Then how many dpser are doing it for the purples? I'm not trying to argue about the proper mentality of raiding, is just that dpser can align their pvp/pve need with their role (dps), while tank and healers need extra effort to get gears that both suit their pve/pvp role, which is an innate disadvantage to them. And if healers/tanks really ditch the raid and go pvp, i won't blame the player. I will blame the guild recruiter and raid leader that allow such player to join the guild/raid in the first place.
Rambull Dec 14th 2006 4:08PM
I think the best thing to do is have issues like this spelled out in the guild charter. Most raiding guilds I've known have had some kind of charter or application. If healers are told up front that they will be receiving healing gear and THAT'S IT! Then, maybe you can weed out the "hardcore healers" from the "guys who want to heal but would also like to enjoy the other aspects of their class". Oh, and who needs rogues anyway? They are clearly inferior to the feral druid. :)
BigDan Dec 14th 2006 7:18PM
My guild had some bad luck giving two-handers to warriors. Back when we were just entering BWL and killing razorgore we had 2 Untamed Blades drop both went to long time commited warriors however when this happened they decided they could now pvp and didnt need pve anymore and gquit. When the 3rd one dropped they gave it to a paladin, who is still in the guild to this day.
Fast track foward 2 months, we get 2 Ashkandis drop both go to out long time commited and decked out warriors. Both warriors decide now they are pvp gods and gquit. So this time when the 3rd dropped, myself a paladin which has stood by this guild since the beginning got the Ashkandi and since then paladins get equal priority as warriors on all dps loot.
I'm sure this isnt the case with everyone but we found paladins are more loyal than warriors and even if warriors make better use of the gear pve wise, if they gquit we lose out anyway.
That being said its been a month since i got Ashkandi and some nice dps loot which i might add i didnt aquire over any warrior. Interestingly enough, because of the 2.0 patch i came 4th on dps on nef last night and yes we always have 1 paladin dps to keep judgements up and improved sanc aura in the MTs group.
GamerJunkie Dec 14th 2006 7:05PM
I've gquit several guilds that restricts healers from bidding on melee or dps weapons.
Imho, healing is the 1st most critical and thankless job in the raid and also least understood by most GMs or Raid Leaders.
It is easy to say throw "big heals!"
When you OOM, they say "where's the heals?"
When I see guilds buying all sorts of gear to equipment for tanks, I asked "where's my Hide of the Wild?"
Tanks get handouts of Flasks so do mages but yet healers don't get flasks..
They always say that when tanks die, its a wipe. Same goes with healing..
2h dps weapons should be open based on which class benefits the most from it.. Any hunter that needs an Ashkandi should wait for the melee classes, since they only need the stats but never ever gonna swing it.
I hate one guild that gave a 2h weap to a warrior almost free and not letting a druid/pally have it because they consider it tank weapon. 2h weap is good for tanking!?
pjc Dec 14th 2006 8:35PM
In the raiding instances there are class sets. Unfortunately, in terms of casters, the set items are not always better than the general dps cloth drops that drop - so mages and locks target those items over their class sets quite a few times (ie Ebony Flame Gloves or Mantle of the Blackwing Cabal). I figure if locks and mages have a class set that provides the decent basis for raiding, the general DPS items should be open to all.
However, too many times those general DPS items go to DPS casters and I am in the minority in trying to free it up for healers. So in effect, DPS caster can have a larger pool of drops to choose from. In my personal experience leading the priests and helping run raids, we have the most turnover with shamans and priests. My personal feeling is that healing is unrewarding in a large raid setting, and the gear you get really doesn't help you except cementing your role further. Once they realize that, they simply quit. In shamans, I think we have a large turnover because they had such a fun time leveling to just get pigeon holed to a totem dropping mana spring.
That being said, I am not sure opening up dps gear to healers will help with turnover - the role of healing is simply that terrible. But what it might do is help increase the amount of time that person raids before the day comes. Once they get the first DPS item, they wanna stick around to get another one cause it pretty rare a guild lets em get it.
Safron Dec 15th 2006 11:30AM
Personally, I prefer to raid with people who know they want to raid, know what their role is on a raid, and enjoy their role on a raid. I'm a priest, I've been raiding on my priest since Molten Core was first open. I am sad that people are raiding as priests if they don't find healing rewarding. I think healing is the most rewarding job on a raid. You have control over who lives and who dies, and control the outcome of a fight much more than, say, a dps class. It is a much more intense role than dps because you have to pay attention to everyone and everything and react quickly to unexpected situations. And let's face it, everyone is simply pressing buttons, at least as a healer you have to use some judgement about who to target and when to press that button.
So I am unimpressed when a healing class prefers to spend their DKP being the first person in the raid to get some uber DPS gear instead of saving their DKP for the best healing gear. But I don't necessarily think the raid should forbid it. I'd rather know who isn't happy playing a healer.