Breakfast Topic: DKP Systems
by Eliah Hecht 
Jan 3rd 2007 at 8:00AM
Love them, hate them, or love to design them over coffee, DKP systems are overwhelmingly prevalent in raiding guilds. I only recently learned to stop hating them when I saw a forum post that analyzed DKP vs. random rolls and proved that the relationship between number of raids and amount of gear gotten is pretty much the same in both cases, but with less random noise in the case of DKP. My guild uses a fairly simple zero-sum system, which seems to work well (even if I am almost always in the negative). What about you? Where do you stand on DKP, and what DKP system, or what way of distributing loot, does your guild use?
Filed under: Guilds, Breakfast Topics, Features, Raiding
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
Heath Jan 3rd 2007 8:29AM
Anyone got a link to the form post? Or any other DKP vs Random comparison?
Dahlaine Jan 3rd 2007 8:35AM
DKP is a necessary evil. Subjective systems like "loot council" or just random rolling leaves people angry about their luck or the bias of the guildleaders.
However, I am against just a straight DKP system. Giving certain classes, certain priorities on items that help them fulfill their raid roll first needs to go along with DKP. Having a hunter grab an amazing sword just because it has 8 more AP doesn't make sense when the same sword would increase a rogue or warriors DPS much more significantly. A priest may want a damage/healing cloth piece to help them grind, but it mostly isn't going to help the raid when they need a healer.
This being said, there also needs to be a minimum floor for DKP, so certain people can't abuse the priority system and just hoard gear.
Scott Jan 3rd 2007 8:33AM
Old guild (On Saph) before we rerolled horde on a pvp server used Loot council.
Worked crappily because loot went to officer favorites.
We plan on using loot council again, how ever its basically going to be like DKP, where the vast majority of the decision is based on attendance and days since last loot. Plan on tracking EVERYTHING, like donations to guild, time spend helping guild mates, etc. etc.
Nijle Jan 3rd 2007 8:34AM
Our guild group loots the trash and random rolls the important stuff. Since our guild Edge of Night on Stormrage is a close nit group of friends, this works very well for all involved.
Everyone feels its fair and since we regularly fill the 20 man raids with a few alternates there really isn't any confusion. Since its master looted that weeds out the "accidental" need rolls that tend to happen on PUG runs.
Savrukk Jan 3rd 2007 10:19AM
0-Sum DKP system here, very happy with it. We use it only in 40 Man instances and we are using it in a 3 Guild Alliance.
No Drama about loot ever since ;)
cloud Jan 3rd 2007 8:53AM
DKP is wow communism
It looks great on paper, but fails completely in practice unless you are a hardcore(4-5+ raids a week) raider it fails completely.
perfect equality does not work with imperfect people.
Juhlz Jan 3rd 2007 8:55AM
Our entire guild dislikes DKP and so leaders came up with a point based system in which you get 1 class point for every class based item that drops and 1 non class point for every non class item that drops. Whoever has the most points for that specific item (class points for class items, non-class points for non-class items) gets the item (if they want it) and the his/her points are reset to zero, The most you can spend on any item is 50 points. Most items have a priority list in order to prevent a wrong class getting an item. ZG is the only RAID that is free-rolled
Ian O'Rourke Jan 3rd 2007 12:14PM
Our guild used to use a simple queue system, you got points for coming to a raid and killing bosses and the person at the top of the queue got first option. Class loot went to the class at the top of the queue, more 'random' loot was open play to the first person at the top of the queue.
In terms of gearing up the raid this went well as the rules enforced the idea of taking loot - not letting all your class gear go by as you saved up for the ultimate sword of doom that wouldn't stand a chance of dropping till we killed the boss in two months.
It is my beliefe you only get gear so you can see more content, at least in the initial stages it isn't a botique shopping trip.
As the it went on people did only need a few things and it needed tweaking but it worked quite well.
I don't mind different DKP systems, but I'm totally against bidding systems because I just don't see the point of putting in that extra layer and potential for drama and politics - people will do anything to circumvent these systems and bidding just seems to add another layer of potential shanninigans:)
kamafnkazi Jan 3rd 2007 9:10AM
My guild uses a combination of DKP/loot council. We use a zero sum DKP system to charge for itmes and to distribute dkp, but we also allow the class specific items to be discussed amongst the classes themselves. For instance as a the old warrior CO and a officer in the guild if might dropped then we would discuss who needs it and if need be get it to our MT first. If multiple people wanted the item and no one passed it to anyone we would then use DKP to be the end deciding factor. For all non-class specific loot, we have made a priority list, posted so the rest of the guild could see it and modified so everyone was happy. then those items are just bid upon using the members dkp.
This method has worked great for my guild, with no complaints. (that i know of)
aaron Jan 3rd 2007 4:29PM
We also use a attendance / last loot system. It works ok.
It gears up newer people fairly quick, however it doesnt really give someone that has all of the gear they want any incentive to continue raiding. It does work fairly well for the middle group though, those that have about half of what they want. And it does ensure a fairly even distribution of loot going to those that are online the most.
DarkSeer Jan 4th 2007 6:04AM
Our guild uses Suicide Kings system - its basically a list system where the highest person on the list that wants the item gets it and then he drops back to the bottom of the list. There is an excellent addon to manage the system, and hence its really easy to run and it takes a very short amount of time to distribute loot.
There are pro's and con's with all systems, but SuicideKings elimiates some of the nasty parts of most DKP systems with respect to new players and less regular players, making it fairer to all.
krazeman Jan 3rd 2007 10:03AM
We used a suicide kings list for all epics that drop, one for the main raid and one for class specific items, all bop blue and greens are group loot all pass and discuss then random roll, where all boe stuff is all greed, we prefer to have the pally in a leather heal pants if noone else wants then to shard, our suicide kings and loot rules can be seen at distraction.us this works pretty well
Bunkai Jan 3rd 2007 10:15AM
In past guilds, I've been exposed to Random Rolling, Suicide King's Loot Ladder, and DKP.
I believe that the DKP system is the most fair for long-term members and new players alike.
Our guild used/uses a Fixed-Price, Zero-Sum DKP system and takes into consideration which class/role each item would benefit. Also, points were only awarded for purchased items, so anything that went to the Guild Bank or that was DE'd gained no points for anyone in the raid (incentive to purchase items to prevent point hoarding).
Example: In MC, epic but non-class specific item drops. Officer use the officer chat to discuss and agree which class/role it would best benefit. Then the announcement is made for members of that class/role to bid. Those interested would simply type "bid" into the chat window. The ML, usually me, would then review the DKP standings of those that bid. The person with the highest bid and anyone within 10 DKP of that person would be allowed to random roll for that item and then spend the required amount of points on it if they won the roll.
For MC, fixed prices were as such:
Armor Pieces(except cloaks) = 40 DKP
Weapons, Cloaks, and Jewelery = 60DKP
If an item was purchased, the raid would divide it's worth equally, so a 40-man raid would earn 1 DKP each if someone purchased an item for 40 DKP. DKP spent was deducted immediately, and DKP earned was not added until the conclusion of the raid.
It was/is, IMO, a VERY fair and VERY robust system. Pair that with the PHP/SQL DKP website and RaidTracker, and it also becomes quickly and easily manageable.
rulyblue Jan 3rd 2007 10:41AM
Since my guild is not a raiding guild and we only do 5-10 mans we do random rolling when we have strangers, but if it is just the guild we decide who gets to goods. If someone needs it, they can have it. For the 25-mans (if we can get enough of our busy people on - their mostly mommies) we will do the same thing. We will outfit our main tank and main healer first and then the rest. We will make decisions rather than the random rule in order to make more people happy. Out of our guild, there are abnout 20 of us that are so closely knit that we can do with this little to no squabbling.
go Kimchi!
SexualChoc Jan 3rd 2007 10:51AM
If you are in a hardcore raiding guild, and I mean hardcore (5+ night raiding, 4 hours a day etc.) then DKP is a huge yes. I mean you need to give certain classes (read: Warriors) necessary gear because it's nigh on impossible to do it without them in good gear. My old DKP system had a minimum bid, and only certain classes that had priority. Which is only fair, as some might not use it for raids. DKP rewards those who put the time in with the gear. Those who can't, should probably stick to a lesser raiding guild.
Grorgx Jan 5th 2007 4:17PM
I am not in a raiding guild since im am still helping my friends get to 60 and am guild master (our guild will eventualy[
flark Jan 3rd 2007 11:19AM
Up to now we have a EQDKP system with two lists, but as one of the guys who has to update it regularly, I hate it now. Maybe we will give Suicide Kings a try, but what will happen when the addon is no longer updated?
Melf Jan 3rd 2007 5:21PM
Our guild uses a zero sum system that we created, called RPP (Raid participation points). From our website:
"RPP is a participation-weighted round-robin loot distribution system for large organized raids.
It is a system designed to fairly reward players for the time and effort they put into raiding while at the same time not excluding those that are more casual participants. The basic premise is that points are used to keep track of a position in line that determines who has priority to receive the next item that drops. When someone receives an item they spend points and move to the back of the line and will then accumulate points such that they will return to the front of the line after everyone else who has participated equally has also received an item. Equal participation translates to equal reward.
Each player will start with zero points for the first raid attended. Points spent will be subtracted from the player's balance at the time of purchase and points earned will be added to the balance after the raid is complete. The player's point balance may be positive or negative and will be tracked as a decimal value. The player with the highest point total has priority for the next item that drops."
What also makes it great is that any player can bid on any item that they can equip. Thankfully this has not caused any problems, even now that we're raiding through Naxx. It has allowed all of the "off spec" people to shine, and shadow priests, feral druids, fire mages, dps paladins, etc. all get the gear they want and are able to do end-game raiding at the same time. I love this system ;)
Oblitherax Jan 4th 2007 1:29AM
My guild on Moonrunner[H] uses a guild points system that is similar to your standard DKP system, except that it has a larger bonus for guild participation.
For example. Raid attendance is worth 50 points. In 10 mans, 10 per boss, 20 in 20 mans, 40 in 40 mans. You can also obtain points for assistance lower level guild members with quests/instances, donations to the guild, pvp attendance, etc etc.
Basically, our DKP is not only based on your attendance to a specific raid. We're a casual guild, so if someone doesn't raid AQ for 2 weeks, we don't want them to have to come back and have no DKP to spend. They can easily gather DKP through just regular guild participation.
Has always worked well.
We also use a silent auction system where bid tells are sent to one officer, and there is no counter bidding. What you bid is what you bid and you have no idea what anyone else is bidding. If no one else bids, you get deducted half the minimum.
kuri Jan 3rd 2007 12:16PM
DKP is indeed a necessary evil. If you're in any type of an end-game progression guild and can't manage to elicit 40 dedicated raiders to attend each raid (with little to no substitutions), DKP is necessary to keep new raiders around and veteran raiders happy.
With group loot or random rolls, that brand-new member could end up snagging some extremely rare loot with little to no consistent raid contribution. Then, the person who sits through every raid trying to drag the guild through new content gets shafted (and frustrated), and in the end, the gear might end up going to people that don't help progress.
Is DKP akin to a seniority system, and does it make raiding feel like a job? Perhaps. I raid because I love it, and I know my DKP will reflect my attendance (and thus accurately allow me to receive loot). DKP is all how you look at it. I consider it a fair shake for all, and very representative of guild contribution.
Of course, DKP only applies to AQ40/Naxx for us. MC/BWL loot is typically /randomed, minus Drake Fang Talisman and other powerful (and rare) trinkets/weapons.