Roguetastic: Imp Sap and being useful
by Elizabeth Wachowski 
Feb 7th 2007 at 1:49PM
Welcome to Roguetastic, a new occasional feature spotlighting everyone's favorite sneaky, high-DPS class. Well, actually, not everyone's favorite. Right now, it's very few people's favorite. And that's what this post is about.
One of the bad things about being a rogue is that you just feel so darn useless in instances. Tanks are protecting the raid, healers are keeping people alive, and you're just ... hitting the boss. You don't even have any good buffs like Power Word: Fortitude or Arcane Intellect to help out your teammates. You're just a self-contained killing unit that maybe -- MAYBE -- gets to keep a stray mob from attacking a healer. Woot. No wonder we have such a bad reputation.
Which is one reason I like having improved sap in instances. For those of you who may not know, Imp Sap got moved up to be a second-tier Subtlety talent, so you only need seven points in subtlety to take it. I love having Imp Sap because I can do something useful for the group. I can sap the left mob, a mage will polymorph the right, and suddenly a difficulty five-pull becomes as easy as pie. Of course, there's the possibility that I'll get detected and die, but that's the price you pay for being squishy.
Unfortunately, a lot of popular raiding builds -- including Mutilate/Combat and Combat Swords -- pretty much skip over the subtlety tree, leaving rogues who choose these builds to maximize raid efficiency at sort of a loss when it comes to five-mans. Many rogues are asking for Imp Sap to become trainable, particularly since rogues are underpowered and are having problems getting spots in instances and raids. No, no. Shut up about Cloak of Shadows, I said "in instances and raids."
I agree with this sentiment. If a mage or a hunter can do your damage from range and require less healing, why take rogues, especially after resilience and glancing blows heavily nerfed our boss DPS? For things like Imp Sap (for five-mans), stuns (which should be more useful in raids) and group auras and buffs (which we desperately need.) Although quite frankly I'd settle for taking back the weapon skill nerf and giving us a little more pure damage.
What do you think? What other changes do you think would make rogues more viable in PVE?
Filed under: Rogue
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
Sam Feb 7th 2007 2:14PM
Maybe I'm just a noob but the groups I've been in have embraced my rogue character, mainly because of backstab and it's huge crit bonuses. Not to mention, SAP as you've described have saved our souls many.. many times.
Pritchard Feb 7th 2007 2:11PM
Forget about rogues in PvE...that's a sweet picture you've included! NICE!
Maybe something more along the lines of what the hunters got though...about redirecting aggro. If a rogue could do that in an instance, their Dps would be more uninterruped and they wouldn't tax the healers so much.
And rogues do provide a utility in instances...lock picking. In Outlands, you definietly OPEN every locked chest in an instance and if you don't have a rogue in the group, you get one.
Druid dude Feb 7th 2007 3:46PM
I don't really understand where this currently popular sentiment about rogues comes from. Rogues are still the damage monsters they have always been from what I see. In 5 mans and Karazhan, they are always near the top of the damage meters, like they have always been. About the only difference I have seen is that now, some times a feral druid will up toward the top as well. But its not like Rogues aren't doing insane DPS like they always have been. Well, at least the good ones!
Which brings up another point. The 5 mans, and progressing through them, have really shown who has skill and who doesn't. Within any given class, it have been intersting to see who is still competetive in damage output, and who has fallen off. We have several people, in a few classes, that are pushing close in to the 1000 DPS range consistently. Then within each of the classes capable of that kind of damage, there are some that are struggling to squeeze out 500.
Axezeris Feb 7th 2007 6:41PM
They have no place in my groups. If I need lock picking I whip out my Seaforuim(sp?) charge and break it. If I want DPS, Ill chose a Mage thank you.
David Feb 7th 2007 2:22PM
I was never invited to groups until i went improved sap and then I became a viable member of the group. I would like to see it become a trained ability though also. That would free even the current seven points for something even better in combat. But the best thing they ever did was make it a constant rather than a random time modifier for the imp sap.
Cedric Feb 7th 2007 2:27PM
Agree with 2: I have never seen any discrimination against me, pre or post-60, PVE or raid. Our DPS is always very welcome and if anything, Imp Sap has definitely made rogues much more welcome in Outland than they used to be.
Unfortunately, Imp Sap will probably be useless in raids, so I'll spec out of it then, but until then, it makes solo questing an absolute breeze.
Surtr Feb 7th 2007 2:39PM
As someone who mainly plays a prot warrior and holy priest, I enjoy having rogues around on 5-mans for several things:
Gouge on the primary dps target when the tank loses aggro (VERY useful on multi-mob trash)
DPS that's happening near the tank with a aggro dump. Mobs don't go running towards the ranged dps (read: next to healer) and are easier to pick back up.
Fat dps. Nobody does all out except on boss fights, and those only last a small percentage in 5-mans. Most of the time, there's all the pull, setup, CC/healer protection, etc. that means you're either in the "fat dps" camp (rogues are) or aren't (we'll leave names out to avoid derailment).
Lockpicking. Open stuff as the run goes through, and at the end if you liked folks, offer to open any extra boxes folks have on them. Guaranteed friend-list, which for a tank or healer means random tells when I'm ready to run something and need an extra dps class.
Cedric Feb 7th 2007 2:48PM
Speaking of lockpicking, I don't know if it was conscious on Blizzard's part, but skilling up is much easier in Outland than it was in Azeroth. Strong Boxes abound and I even have a saved stash of them in the bank that guarantees that I max out my skill every time I level, guaranteeing me a maximum lockpicking skill as soon as I reach 70.
Wasyl Feb 7th 2007 3:45PM
We need a group buff or we need more damage, probably both. Right now we're so useless in PVE it hurts, compared to other classes. It seems like Bliz decided to give other classes the abilities that rogues desperately needed.
For example, the already overpowered druid feral tree has LotP and Imp LotP, which for 1 and 2 (total 3) points respectively, will give your entire group 5% crit and heal 2% health on a crit. This is as much crit as our dagger spec and malice, which take 5 points each, and it's shared with the whole group! This would have been an amazing ability to give rogues, perhaps in the lackluster combat tree, but no.
Another example is the hunter's Misdirection. It would have been great if a rogue could pop this when a mob got away from the tank, and hit it with a nice burst of damage to send it right back. This would give us more utility and give us something to do other than stabby stab until something dies. But instead, hunters, the class with arguably the best aggro management already, were given this ability.
It's a damn shame how sad the rogue class has become in PVE, thanks to the weapon skill nerf and buffs to every other class' damage or aggro management. We need something done badly, right now it's just a button-mashing DPS contest that we can't even win any more.
Luxicon Feb 7th 2007 3:14PM
I'm full combat swords build, but the first 3 instances I've gone to, I keep getting asked if I have imp sap. Then I realized that it got moved way up and it's only 2 points now. Having enough points left going to 70 I decided to spend those immediately my next two levels. It's great, I was able to use it the next instance I went to and be useful.
I've never encountered anyone not wanting rogues so far. I know as a healer I didn't like them because if they drew aggro they lose hp fast and they always worried me.
Luxicon Feb 7th 2007 3:50PM
Oh and the fact that Imp Sap not only moved up the tree, but you can now sap from the front even using swords is amazing. I don't see why anyone shouldn't get it.
Steve Feb 7th 2007 5:34PM
I was very excited about the move of Imp Sap lower in the tree. I felt that this greatly improved my utility in instance runs and raids.
My guild has always valued me because I am competent. They don't number-crunch to try to absolutely maximize every fraction of a point of DPS. I wouldn't be in a guild that was like that.
Roguerhunter Feb 7th 2007 4:25PM
Although not a Rogue myself, my main consisting of a Hunter I tend to have some difficulities with them. I push the issue of giving class new abilities and revamping the talents totally different to make every confrontation a great interesting experience.
Nice Pic I know where ya got that one! Look at some of the X-mens Rogue abilities..
Abilities Current powers:
*Absorption of psyche and powers through skin to skin contact.
*Project heat and flame.
*Envelop herself in a fiery aura.
*Immunity to heat and radiation.
*Ability to see the infra-red spectrum.
*Flight.
*Increased strength through focusing her flame powers inwards.
Something to think about that I add maybe a shield that is created when health is absorbed from a targets life ie:Pet, Mob, Player, boss with a cool down of 10min or so.
Or a Shadow move that allows him to create several images in a circle with a fair distance thus mimicing what he does for a short period while his targe gets confused and has a choice to pick which one he is. Thus allowing him to bandage up run away or go in for a move at a certain angle.
Just a few thoughts anyones got any better!
Heres the Link that explains more and where this picture was imported as well good job writter *wink*
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultimate_Rogue
Andy Sinesio Feb 7th 2007 3:39PM
Why take a rogue? Here's why:
1) Imp Sap, as you've shown, is key to surviving many fights.
2) Stunlock/interrupt. No other class is as effective at taking down an enemy caster - we have gouge, cheap shot, kick, and kidney shot to make them effectively inept. This is probably the most important skill rogues have - no other class is nearly as effective.
3) Poisons. We can slow down enemy casters by 60%, prevent mobs from being healed quickly, prevent mobs from running away, and improve our DPS.
4) Lockpicking. Every upper level instance has at least one locked chest. Good luck opening it without a rogue.
If people are really not into taking rogues in their groups, that's their own mistake. Rogues take skill to play well, and most rogues do not play well. And sure, using a hunter, mage, or warlock instead of a rogue will not cripple your group.
However, a well played rogue is a great addition to most groups.
Ekimus Feb 7th 2007 3:45PM
Rogues are the only class that offer no party-wide buffs. Personally, I'd make some of the finishing moves add temporary buffs. Or make new finishing moves that provide buffs, varying in strength/type with each combo point. I'd give them a low buff timer like Imp Battle Shout, and make them just as useful.
Wasyl Feb 7th 2007 3:56PM
Just to qualify what I said above, I'm talking mainly about raiding. Granted, I haven't raided in BC yet, but unless the encounters are vastly different (and I'm sure some will be), we'll have the same problems we did pre-BC, except now we're nerfed and everyone else is buffed. We don't have utility, and our damage doesn't rank where it used to be. Those facts aren't debatable.
As far as 5-mans go though, I definitely feel alright in those. We still don't get group buffs, but we have a nice Imp Sap now, silence/interrupts, stuns, evasion for the occasional offtank, and nice single target DPS. In a 5-man I'm usually at least moving around, keeping an eye out for loose mobs, looking for opportune targets to stun or interrupt. However, most things are immune to these abilities in raids, and therein lies the problem. Give us something else to do in raids and I'll be happy.
Krianna Feb 7th 2007 4:09PM
So, you do amazing damage, have medium armor, can stun, can vanish, can stealth, can sprint-- and you want to do buffs, too? Would you like a pet, while you're at it?
Mages haven't gotten a load of nifty stuff-- ooh, molten armor, nice but not game breaking by any means. Frostlance-- haven't gotten up to it yet. And the arcane equivilant of a frostbolt, which is really not very good. (Maybe if you're PVP set up and have maxed out your arcane for those nasty AOE kills.)
Yet you don't see dozens of pages of mages wailing.
Each class has pluses and minuses. You can't beat a rogue for removing casters, etc.
Cedric Feb 7th 2007 4:18PM
@11: I disagree with your DPS comments.
First of all, I'm not sure we're talking about the same thing if you see numbers in the 1000 DPS, but no big deal.
You don't measure how good a Rogue is by how often he tops the damage meter. If anything, such a Rogue is probably a Rogue that is not waiting for the aggro call, and he is most likely a liability in challenging raids.
moink Feb 7th 2007 5:17PM
My priest is constantly grouping with my husband's rogue. I've encountered a lot of bad rogues in the past: their ability to solo easily seems to attract some antisocial people who don't make the best group members. However, since I'm so squishy, I love having a good rogue with me. Even if I draw aggro, the mob is stunned and can't hurt me. And the high dps is great for grinding out the levels.
tripp Feb 8th 2007 10:51PM
PvE? Haha. Rogues are a PvP menace they ganked, grief, camp, stealth which makes them ungankable and uncampable. The only reason to PvE is to get better gear so you can gank some more. I knew that when I made my Rogue and most of you guys did to. Now that you have spent so much time on them you want to experience end game? Rogues are the kings of world PvP. Want PvE?, start leveling up that Mage.