Stealthing while clinking: Rogues in chainmail
by Mike Schramm 
Feb 24th 2007 at 10:26AM
Way back when, I found a post on the forum that suggested that Shaman should get temporary, summoned pets to use, and when I said it'd be a great idea, you guys laughed at me. And yet, come the expansion, we get those fun little Elemental Totems to play around with. So while you might laugh at this suggestion at first, think about it for a second before you say I'm crazy: Let's give Rogues mail!Guize on Skullcrusher has come up with what I think is a very interesting solution to the problem of endgame survivability for Rogues (we'll put PvP aside for a second and just talk about PvE for now). Currently, as players have said before, Rogues are a liability in most endgame raids-- yes, they can dish out damage, but considering how many endgame bosses pour out AoE, Rogues often end up to be more of a drain on the healers than anything else. I'm sure Cloak of Shadows has helped that a little bit (I haven't got too much experience with it yet, as my Rogue is only 61), but the fact is that while tanks can take it, Rogues take a beating more than any other class (ok, maybe healers take a worse beating, but that's only in a bad party).
Enter Guize's suggestion of a 31-point Combat talent that allows Rogues to wear mail armor (alternately, to avoid having to add tons of new agility mail gear, he says it could just be a talent that bumps up armor from items). That would let PvE Rogues not be so squishy when asked to be right up there on the front lines of melee, and it would help out healers a whole lot, especially on the 25 and even 40 man instances.
Now, in terms of PvP, I have to admit it seems a little unbalanced at first, considering that rogues are basically killing machines. But remember, too, that magic ignores armor-- Warlocks and Priests will still be able to DoT and fear just as much as they did before (and Cloak of Shadows is more of a problem for them anyway, and it's already in the game). There is, of course, the problem that it's really hard to be stealthy when all that mail armor would be clinking around, but if you want to finally give rogues a chance against the endgame AoE bosses, giving them the option to wear mail would definitely do it.
Filed under: Rogue, Analysis / Opinion, Talents
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
EU Player -Quad. Mar 14th 2007 6:48PM
Yes but you are missing out one key factor. Mail does not reduce AoE damage. Also this would make rogues unbeatable in PvP
Seltor Feb 24th 2007 10:47AM
Are you saying it'd be ok for PVP, since magic ignores armor? Seriously?
For it to be balanced, everyone would have to get a bump up. Cloth to leather, plate to titanium or whatever.
That's just not going to happen, sorry.
Sushi Feb 24th 2007 11:12AM
♥
~lvl 60 Rogue on Eitrigg
Natali Feb 24th 2007 11:30AM
Yes, lets overpower the rogue. Much better idea than them learning how to manage their aggro or giving them a move that could help them avoid AoE that would be more suited to the purpose of their class.
crsh Feb 24th 2007 11:48AM
Unfortunately, if we're talking PvE only here, mail armor would do very little against AoEs, it would be usedful for cleaves though. Rogues don't need armor, they need magical damage mitigation. CloS is just that, 5 seconds in PvE is nothing though (but I understand how bumping it up would be overpowered for PvP). Another idea would be to make mind-numbing poison not only cripple casting time, but also cripple the damage a spell inflicts (think stackable wound poison charges for spell damage instead of just reduced healing).
In other news, cleave mechanics are getting changes to be only the front 180 degrees in an upcoming patch; about time, any rogue that experienced the pain of cleaving mobs in Naxx is going to be eternally grateful for that one. :D
marsh Feb 24th 2007 11:55AM
As someone with a hunter main, I think that's a horrible idea. It's bad enough having conflict with rogues over weapons and rings, but then add armor on top of that?
Unless you give hunters plate armor with AGI as well... ;)
Galipan Feb 24th 2007 11:54AM
personally, I get pwned by rogues one way or another so I don't care about that. I'm backing you up here, I mean, rogues are the DPS class that are most likely to take agro. Usually, when I'm in a group and the tank dies or loses agro because a rogue over DPSes they die too fast because leather just won't cut it. As a hunter, I don't see the use of me wearing mail, I really don't. If I'm range and my pet is always the one taking the damage why should I need the extra armour? I can always FD when s**t hits the fan.
Sure, give rogues the extra armour, everyone knows they need it....at least for PvP. I don't want the main DPS of my group to be dying every time it takes agro because I have an incompetent tank.
oshin Feb 24th 2007 11:56AM
As a rogue i know what you mean about getting cleaved ect, many instances that are a push over with ranged classes can be really tough with rogues getting aoed, and more often than not were left to die as the healer is struggling to keep the tank up. Prayer of mending really rocked for us, but now its been nerfed (poor priests). There is hope though, http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=77556711&pageNo=1&sid=1#0
Hopefully this will solve the problem. I think a mail talent is a bad idea, mainly because most mail is badly itemized for rogues, as at the moment its Agil (good) Stam (good) ap (good) Int (Bad) mp5 (are you for real ?!)
What might be nice though is shortish cooldown ability (30-40 seconds ?) that allows the rogue to avoid the next attack (for say 5 seconds), for an energy cost, this would allow us to avoid whirlwinds on timers on many bosses at least, and give us a chance to escape if were low.
Rich Feb 24th 2007 1:31PM
What they should do is just adjust the %'s of Lighting Reflexes and Deflection from +1% per point to +2% (or even do +2/+1/+2/+1/+2%.
Damage for rogue should be avoided, not mitigated by armor. Giving them the extra 3-5% to avoid the hit would go along way and make the class feel like it should and not overbalance it. I've always felt my rogue got hit way too often considering he's got 5 points in both the talents and has agi out the ass.
If they decide to give rogues mail then they need have it so it disables their ability to stealth. This would even it out and prevent rogues from being a total nightmare. It makes the situation fair. In PVP you won't have a tank who can sap, since you can't switch armor in combat, but in raids where they don't need to sleath they can stand up and fight and still dish out damage.
overneathe Feb 24th 2007 12:26PM
@ 6.
Well this armor thingy problem is because this way we have 3 cloth, 4 leather - 2 of them getting to mail, and 2 mail - getting to plate.
It's perfectly balanced as I see it. Though something else i see is that no cloth goes leather, and I'd suggest priests/mages 'couse locks are already too damn good solo. They can actually hold the monsters away. While the priest and mage depend on a small amount of skills to keep the targets far for some short duration.
On the subject - giving rogues mail, would make me a 'dr00dz male 2' protester. Although I know, druids are gonna be a sick machine in mail... but i just like it :]
Trancet Feb 24th 2007 12:28PM
A rogues hardest opponents are those that deal mainly physical damage, as such, i do not think this would be such a terrible unbalance of the class.
On a side note: priests will need leather to survive the next batch of nerfs
John Feb 24th 2007 12:37PM
The thing is, it wouldn't be an option. Every raiding guild would force their rogue to spec into this.
Smutcakes Feb 24th 2007 3:07PM
simple solution. just as some rogue abilities need soecific weapons make aprint and stealth only usable to rogues wearing armor lighter than mail.
delic Feb 24th 2007 1:22PM
Maybe, to maintain consistency, rouges could have something that uses enchanted leather for a bit extra "oomph." As A rouge, I have learned to be mindful of my aggroing and that alone is an art in itself. Perhaps the enchanted leather could be done in a way like Librams were/are done and that we have to go and "update" our items that we currently have. Even better (totally geeking out here) we could get a nice black death glow like the lobotomizer has on our armor. Just thinking out loud...
Galipan Feb 24th 2007 1:26PM
@13 cmon man, ur being unreasonable. rogues get pwned by a lot of people all the time, and in instances when you have a crappy tank, rogues take the agro and die, which then leads to giving agro to the healer. ppl just get pissed at rogues because in pvp they are frustrating since they attack so goddamn fast. no one is over exaggerating. I think that rogues with mail is a good idea, and 12 makes a good point. if a rogue wants to wear mail, he can go right ahead, but if he does, its chingly, so he cant stealth. there problem solved
FYI, i dont play a rogue, im a hunter.
Matt Park Feb 24th 2007 1:31PM
Only if shamans get plate. I'm not competing with the rogues for stuff.
len Feb 24th 2007 1:37PM
I got no problem with it, as long as it was realistic. A rogue wearing mail should have an attack speed debuff, lose a lot of chance to dodge, and be unable to stealth or vanish.
kabes Feb 24th 2007 2:42PM
Well that's one way to utterly decimate itemization across the whole board and instance drop loot tables. Now rogues, enhancement shaman, and hunters will all be competing for the same armor....but the rogues will still be able to take the leather as well.
It'll never happen. Ever. I love how people (read: armchair designers) think they have these fantastic ideas yet don't even try to think of the full ramifications.
WoW is delicately balanced and a change like this would have a ripple effect across multiple classes, and multiple PVE encounters.
This is like giving hunters a 30 point SURVIVAL-tree talent that allows them to wear plate armor. I'm sure fury warriors would LOVE that little change.
rcdan Feb 24th 2007 3:22PM
srry, stupid idea. first rogues in mail just doesn't fit. secondly, just make some endgame leather pcs that are equal to mail...but not mail.
uncaringbear Feb 24th 2007 3:49PM
Sorry, I just can't picture a ninja-like assassin stealthing around in mail armour. You can only butcher the lore and character design so much before it becomes outright silly and unbelievable.