Tigole talks raids
by Eliah Hecht 
Mar 1st 2007 at 6:44PM
Two months into the Burning Crusade, and some people's minds are on raids, now that the ranks of 70s are starting to swell. New and challenging content is undoubtedly exciting, but is it too challenging? Panthro, of Eldre'Thelas, has written a well-thought-out post with six main points about the new raids. To summarize:
- Karazhan and heroics are way harder than normal 5-mans; you need lots of consumables.
- Gear improvements are too marginal.
- Keying is too difficult, so if you lose a member, keying a new one is a pain.
- Most of the 25-man content is not doable by "normal" guilds (i.e. those of us who are not Death and Taxes).
- There is a lack of healers.
- There's no reason to have anything but a Warrior MT now.
- [on consumables] We're discussing various solutions to issues with consumables. We're aware of the issue and agree that it is an issue. With that said, I don't really think Karazhan is overly difficult and requires massive amounts of consumables.
- [on gear] We're taking another look at the raiding gear. I'd agree with your statement.
- [on keying] I partially agree and partially disagree. We have some ideas that will help people "catch up" who join the endgame later on. With that said, I'm not so sure endgame players would like the face of the game if everyone had instant access to all of the content. There is something to be said for progression and the sense of accomplishment. Don't get me wrong, we have to be careful not to create a brick wall for new people, but I think there is a balance to be struck here.
- [on 25-mans being too hard] I agree. As I have already stated on these forums, Magtheridon is proving more difficult than intended. We are planning on toning him down. We've made some minor fixes to Gruul as well but I think that encounter needs to be toned down too. Gruul and Mag should feel like Onyxia did 6 months into vanilla WoW.
I don't really agree with points 5 and 6 but I do feel like your previous points all had merit. Hopefully, the changes I mentioned will alleviate some of your worries.
Filed under: Raiding, The Burning Crusade, Bosses
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 1)
FadedReality Mar 1st 2007 7:05PM
imo they should look at itemization and scaling, not scale down the difficulty of the bosses. You were far more powerful at 60 than 50, and that didn't take as much time as 70.
Adam Mar 1st 2007 7:46PM
I'd agree with #1 - my guild's on a farming spree for flasks and elixir just to get past the 2nd & 3rd boss encounters in Kara (and in some cases the harder 70 dungeons). Attumen is definitely doable without (we 9-manned him first time out :-D), the trash pulls are tough but fair I think. Several wipes on Moroes, however, show that he needs either lots of consumables to buff and make it through or a very exacting raid composition.
On #2, it does seem incremental rather than massive changes (think dungeon 1/2 vs. your first tier 1 piece!). However rather than re-looking the point spread on each item, I think a better solution would be to increase the benefit from gems (which in turn would add to the economic viability for JCers, another of my qualms)
I agree w/Tigole on #3 - I want to raid w/someone who's willing to put the effort into getting there, and *CAN* get there (good example is a tank of ours who's been stalled on Black Morass for a couple weeks now)
#5 I think is true in certain instances right now, sure. Not a lot of people want to play a squishy holy priest, and resto druids and shammys just don't seem sexy enough.
#6 I will agree with once the .10 patch drops. As a lolbaretank, I think we should be kept viable as a maintank option for more than 5-mans. The odd YouTube of a bear tanking Nef, Ony, Rag, etc. shouldn't be the exception here. I can't speak for prot pallies, but I know they're already having a hard time with anything but offtanking right now.
steve Mar 2nd 2007 1:03PM
Maybe people should stop crying that they're trying to do BWL level instances in stratholme equivilant gear. If gruul is still unbeatable w/ most of the raid in T4 then you have a problem.
Argent Mar 1st 2007 8:18PM
kara is about right where it ought to be, imo. you really only need to flask up for prince and/or nightbane.
as for gruul being like ony v3.0 or so -- ROFL.
the only way they can get that feeling done is by fundamentally altering the whole mechanic of the fight significantly. it's almost entirely luck based at the moment (get one bad shatter and that's a wipe! wooohoo!) and beating it kinda depends on how willing people are to buy into flasking the entire raid.
Mats Mar 1st 2007 8:27PM
My guild has done the first 4 bosses in karazhan without a paladin, and without consumables. (we are not counting Mage water and breed right?)
Anyways, it's doable. But only if you up the quality of the players you bring. One bad apple and consumables need to enter to make up for that one crappy player.
Dave Mar 2nd 2007 1:12AM
I haven't tried the rest, but Karazhan is frightfully easy once you learn the mechanics of the fights and get all the people on the same page, etc etc, at least up to Curator. Haven't had the right party for that yet, but I dunno it hasn't been that rough so far.
and i think keying is how it should be, an accomplishment that weeds out everyone who's making 10 alts and can't ever decide who their main is. This forces you to choose a main and stick with it, which I think is good.
we just need loot buffs for the epics and i think everyone will be fine!
Insight5 Mar 2nd 2007 1:42AM
Well its true its too difficult i am lv 70 and its hard for me to run 5 man instances with any guild...I think the greed has gotten to too many people...They dont know that all the gear they are getting is going to be replaced with better ones so why all the fuss with gear...Plus whats is it with all these requirements for getting keyed, most of these requirements have nothing to do with the battle of hyjal...Plus its still unfair that theres still instances that require over 5 man...I mean we all pay to play we should at least get a chance in fighting every boss this game has to offer...i want to 5 man illidan and grull and so on...i know what your saying there supposed to be hard...Here's the solution...change the gear stats...done...Lets say illian drops a dagger in a 5 man...and when you do a 25 man he drops the same dagger...its the same dagger but by doing the 5 man you get lower stats than you do in a 25 man...I think thats fair...I dont care about gear...I just want to fight the bosses...i should at least have that...I'm playing to play, not paying to wait.
Primax Mar 2nd 2007 3:13AM
@5 You mean like raids are supposed to be? (About teamwork and learning fights)
Munchkin Mar 2nd 2007 7:01AM
I agree with all but the 3rd point and agree with Dave (#3) on his comment that keying weeds out the alts.
With regards to point 5, my guild doesnt have enough healers as theres considerable grinding to do @70 and our healers all spec'd to do more damage. In fact point 6 is valid as all our druids are spec'ing resto now as .10 kills ferals off for the anything beyond normal 5 mans. Yes, we've spent some time on the PTR, we got tired of the theorycrafting and wanted to try it.
Bear tanks work fine on the normal 5 mans but just dont hack it on the heroics or kara, so they'll be dropped once on live post .10
Its brutal but we didnt nerf them, Blizztard did.
Burien Mar 2nd 2007 7:19AM
I would agree that the loot tables in some cases need to be changed. My main problem with the new raids are not so much boss fights or keying then more of respawn rates on trash. Its pretty annoying that on new encounters you get one attempt at a boss then its back to clearing trash to fight your way back to him if you wipe or waiting for respawns. For example clearing to midnight those mobs are easy but if you mess up the boss fight and wipe then you have to start clearing all the mobs again. Clearing to the maiden is even worse and the moroes trash are not much better.
Todd Mar 2nd 2007 9:17AM
re: beartanks - I'm not sure about 25 man bosses, but I know that for some fights in Kara, a bear is better, but for most a warrior is better.
I think something blizzard needs to examine to remedy the consumable situation is the 'trash is harder than the bosses' syndrome. The Ushers in Kara are easily harder than the actual big bad wolf and the kitchen staff (if you approach that way) near Moroes could handle heroic 5-mans (I wanna level up a Chef!).
duron Mar 2nd 2007 9:38AM
My guild has done through the chess event in kara and we have not used any consumables, just geared up through 5 mans and what we have gotten in kara.
Lostmimic Mar 2nd 2007 9:49AM
@6 man I hope there was sarcasm there :)
@point #6: no crap there is a lack of healers, all the druids I know went moonkin or feral, and who in their right mind (other then me) wants to play a priest, they get nerfed every patch.
@Keying: For MtH encounter the reason the keying process is so long is because all the encounters before it are skill checks to getting in, and I think they did a pritty good job putting lore into it if you bothered to check into it.
@Difficulty: Karazhan is not that hard. 2nd week of ever attempting the place, we raid it 3 nights a week, and we just downed the curator. No T3, all in gear any 5 man can get in TBC. We use minimal consumables, but only cause it gives more wiggle room and even then its only like food or cheap pots i would use soloing. Only hiccup was getting Romulo first week :(
gunn Mar 2nd 2007 12:38PM
I wish people would stop crying about the difficulty of certain dungeons and just play the game.
Why does everyone believe it's their god given right to down every single dungeon/raid in their first week into it.
If there is one thing I'm noticing about WoW players is that all of them bitch and moan instead of realizing that most of the problems they're facing are their or their guilds OWN inadequacies.
Waaa I have to farm!
Waaa I can't beat the first boss in Karazhan!
Waaa I just got attuned to karazhan and my guild whose been in their and attuned for 2 weeks won't drop their core members to drag me through and teach me everything that I deserve to be taught instead of joining a guild that is on my own level of playing, it's all their fault and I take responsibility for none of it!
Waaaa My epics from raiding got replaced by greens at level 65!
Waaaa I can't believe an RPG is making me do things to progress through the game. SHouldn't they let me do whatever I want!
Waaa I'm playing a game that I don't like and instead of finding a game that's more intune with how I like to play I would rather cry cry cry until they change this game to fit my tastes!
Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!
Less QQ more PEWPEW
Jim Mar 2nd 2007 2:08PM
Regarding Healers
Not enough healers, and not enough tanks. Why? Because there's still enough rep grind and keying content out there that players need to either have dedicated play partners (rare) or need to be able to solo.
I'm seeing a lot of guilds that have been spoiled by the long state of the pre-BC endgame, where tanks and healers had already experienced all the questing content they wanted and were ready to be a dedicated support class without soloing ability. Those were the guilds that wouldn't accept priest/warrior apps unless our already attuned to MC/BWL/ONY, fully Holy/Prot, and already had a full D1 set or better (by the end, that was becoming T1 or better).
BC endgame is new endgame. Tigole said it right in that things should feel like Ony did 4 months into the WoW 1.0. Back then, if you wanted someone to sacrifice their ability to solo/PVP, you cultivated and supported them.
I haven't seen this going on much yet in BC.
insight5 Mar 5th 2007 2:18AM
LOL....All this is hilarious...Technically for point 12 if you know so much about lore tell me how all the requirements to get keyed has to do with the battle of mount hyjal. I mean why couldnt they give you a chain to do old hilsbrad or black moreass...I tell you why its called delaying the inevitable+subscribtion fees...I read the entire lore...Watch by the end of the year they wind up nerfing all the bosses to make it easier...I mean so far I have seen a lack of healers drop...Everyone wants to fight because healing is boring and people bash them. I say treat your healers with respect more than any class because once all the healers are gone this game is dead...Then whats going to happen to all the 25 mans and 10 mans...first it was 40 and it decreased to 25 and 10 mans and soon everything will be 5man and its because the lack of healers...Why the gave horde a paladin class because all shamans and priests didnt want to heal...Thats why theres no warrior bloodelves the only race without this class and look what happened now every pallie thinks there a warrior, and yes palladin bloodelf is a break in the lore...Dont try to justify it by saying the light wasnt there for them when they needed it yada yada yada...I mean something is going to go wrong in this game and its not going to be pretty...Now they ar nerfing druids. I mean need i say more. I say by the time everyone is almost keyed for battle of mount hyjal all the healers will be so fed up with there guild they are going to be gone because its frustrating for them...I use a warrior I know, i always tell the healer good job even if we wipe so what...Man o man you nerds cant see it coming and your the ones that are going to be crying waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa...I have a raid going and no healers..LOL This is to all PAllies druids shamans and priests. Keep dps specced if they need you to respec i say charge them a hefty price like 20gold a person thats 480 gold for every 25 man raid, not bad to respecc to be a healer i say easy money...This is my advice as an entrepreneur and a non guildie. More like a nomad and soon everyone will appreciate the sacrafice and "TIME" you put into the raid...