Instance griefing not against the ToS?
by Elizabeth Harper 
Mar 4th 2007 at 2:23PM
Unless you've experienced it first hand, you may not realize what the term "instance griefing" refers to. In this particular case, it refers to any player or players who are maliciously stealing your guild's raid IDs in order to grief you during raid time. (For non raiders in the audience, high-end raid dungeons have specific reset timers on them, preventing you from constantly farming the dungeon. At some point after zoning into a dungeon -- usually after a boss kill -- you're "saved" to the specific instance and assigned an instance ID that is the same for you and all of your group. Anyone saved with that specific ID will zone into your instance rather than a fresh instance -- at least until the dungeon resets.) Poster Trindade offers some advice on how random players might wind up getting your Karazhan instance ID:
Bob is a member of your raid and has your instance ID.
Jim is a scumbag griefer in shattrath wanting to steal your ID.
Ted is a scumbag griefer outside Karazhan waiting to steal your ID.
Jim is in a group with Ted. They have made their group a raid.
Jim whispers Bob "Hey Bob, wanna run Shattered Halls?"
Bob whispers Jim "sure".
Jim invites Bob to join his group.
Bob joins the raid group.
Bob is now the group leader.
Ted enters Karazhan.
So what happens next? Read on for the whole story.
Sure, Bob might have noticed something fishy about the group being a raid and himself being made leader, but then again, he might not notice these details at all. And when Jim and Ted make their excuses and drop the group, Bob might not even realize anything's happened. But now when Bob's raid zones into Karazhan, they may find people already there -- possibly people who delight in wiping your raid group for the fun of it. In the case of same-faction griefing (or cross-faction griefing on PvE realms) on outdoor raid encounters, Blizzard is usually willing to punish players who intentionally interfere in the encounter. After all, there's nothing your group can do if that level 50 decides to repeatedly run up to Emeriss and say hello -- but your group is going to end up wiping because of it.
However, in the case of instance griefing, Blizzard is simply telling players to never group outside their guild. Not that that's bad advice (I'm sure we all have our own special PUG nightmares), but never grouping with strangers seems a bit counter-productive to the idea of a "massively multiplayer"' game. However, if you're in a raiding guild and want to keep your instance IDs safe and sound, there's not much else you can do -- as Blizzard's refusal to act sends a loud message that this sort of griefing is a-okay.
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 1)
Brujo Mar 4th 2007 2:56PM
Wow, that sucks. I had no idea it was that easy to steal an ID. Thanks for the heads up.
Blackhorn Mar 4th 2007 3:07PM
"as Blizzard's refusal to act sends a loud message that this sort of griefing is a-okay"
At least you're not biased. :P
This is no issue at all. This happens to people who don't belong in a raiding guild, and unfortunately their guildmates suffer for it.
I'm not laying down the law here, I'm just saying if your guild is capable of running the Big K or higher level instances, why pug with anyone?
In addition, this could reveal me to be some giant noob or something, but does this even happen often enough to warrant conscious thought?
Blackhorn Mar 4th 2007 3:12PM
PS: At most this is a "Now you know" entry. Anyone who knows this will happen most likely won't be pugging when their guild has an active raid.
Inform your guild, and dish out harsh punishment.
Baluki Mar 4th 2007 3:14PM
Yea, my guild's leaders made sure to remind us frequently about this when we were doing AQ40. There are two quest items that occasionally drop from any boss, but the NPCs to turn the items in to (for very nice gear) are at the very end of the instance, and can't be accessed until you've killed the Twin Emperors.
Since we were the top horde raiding guild on the server, we were a little paranoid about other guilds using this "ID stealing" to turn in their quest items on our ID, since they hadn't gotten as far as we had yet.
On the flip side, we could've exploited this "glitch" to help those other guilds turn in their items, but we were more paranoid than charitable.
Baluki Mar 4th 2007 3:17PM
Oh, and an addendum to my story: some of those people from other guilds found a way to just walk through the walls or something, so they didn't even need us to be able to turn in their items early.
Rich Mar 4th 2007 3:43PM
So much for raid groups for city defense anymore.
kuri Mar 4th 2007 11:01PM
This may seem like a minute problem to most, but take it from experience: it makes a raid suck.
I'll recall my experience: We recently had a few members leave the guild due to poor attitude. Prior to them quitting we had just started clearing Naxx for the week. After they quit, we notice there are a few "unwelcome" people in our instance not only trying to wipe us with bad pulls, but taking up our raiders' spots!
We had a full 40, but only 36 could make it in, since this grieved ex-member decided to launch his vendetta with some friends.
What followed was a night of drama and general frustration. Throughout the instance, these griefers tagged monsters (which have a chance to drop epics), kept raiders from being able to join, spammed up /s and /y, and pulled instance-wide aggro monsters.
Our members got extremely frustrated with the impediment. Not only were they taking kills that weren't theirs (first-hit instance tags FTL), they were causing us repair bills with wipes and making members sit outside the instance.
We contacted GMs who said "they could do nothing about it". After all 40 of our members sent complaints, they agreed to sit in and watch to see if any of the alleged griefing tactics were being pulled. Sadly, by that time the intruding members were sitting in the main circle laughing about the situation but not doing anything incriminating.
Long story short, Blizzard won't get rid of instance griefers, despite the fact they can waste a night for everyone. Heck, if they're persistent, they could even wreck a week of raiding, take random-drop epics (or bosses if you're not observant), rack up repair bills, and distract your raiders.
Asking people "not to group outside the guild" is ridiculous. Maybe with some ideal uber-raiding guild, this would be feasible. Sadly, in most guilds, people have their out-of-guild friends, some folks are less social who only resort to PUGs, and still others happen to make 'friends' with bad eggs.
Blizzard should truly consider revamping their instance griefing policy. Now that it's outlined on WoW Insider, it's only a matter of time until this becomes the new scam fad.
Argent Dawn CODs today, instance stealing tomorrow!
Sal Mar 5th 2007 9:44AM
I don't see this as a big issue. I'm in a small-medium sized guild and yet we have enough allied guilds to fill a 25-man raid fairly easily. I might run instances or raids outside my guild, but only if it's with a guild we know and trust.
MadCow Mar 5th 2007 9:49AM
@Kuri ... similar thing happened to my old Ally guild (i'm a hordie now). I won't get into the details but we basically had another guild come in and clear MC because of a booted guildie that had our instance ID.
Annoula Mar 5th 2007 12:33PM
So the way I understand it, you join a PUG for say Shattered Halls or something. Instead of them doing the instance there's a guy standing outside of Khaz, that converts to raid, hops in and steals your raid ID? I've grouped with people who were saved to an instance before when I wasn't, how does this get them your raid info?
It sounds like there's a step to this that requires you to be a complete idiot. I feel like if I joined a group for a 5man and found out it was a raid, I'd be somewhat suspicious as far as what's going on. If someone in your PARTY (non-raid) can steal your raid ID then Blizz needs to get their shit together.
Marcelo Abans Mar 5th 2007 10:44PM
I don't think it's a bad message, this just demonstrating that there are asses out there who get a kick out of ruining other's people fun. We sometimes HAVE to be aware who we are grouping with. I usually won't group with people once I've started a raid or if I do, I usually will do inviting to get the group going. You can still group with other people just make sure when you do, if you started a raid, you are the one starting the group. it's that simple. For the most part you are doing a lot of these end game stuff with yoru guild anyway.
Kaziel Mar 5th 2007 1:33PM
Annoula, the key is two fold: First off you need to be in a raid, and saved to an instance. Next you need to be promoted to leader, thus changing the raid to your (guild's) raid ID.
Basically, it's most likely to happen if you are invited, then have to go AFK soon after being invited, or if you're not really paying attention (distracted by guild chat).
Simply, if you're doing PUGs, and in a guild that raids (either raiding guild or multi-guild raiding alliance), until you and the 4 others going to an instance get inside, don't go AFK, and pay attention.
Roguerhunter Mar 5th 2007 2:00PM
Once again I always see issues lie this and it gets to me when this happens but at the same time I like the fact that its a lessons learned and to be aware that Blizzard will not interfere to prove this simple point or fact about not raiding outside your guild or beware!
My solution to this is "GUILD Contract’s" I love to see WoW insiders talk about this subject matter because it’s a very important one and will allow Guilds to show there capabilities of Raiding and maintaining responsibilities.
Why I am mentioning this and some will like it some wont that’s just a fact but will it make a difference YES to certain points because nothing is 100% full proof.
I am in the Military and we have binding contracts from 3,6 years etc for staying loyal to your service and country etc. This keeps figures from going up or down i.e.: Guild hoppers. Yeah you big Boy/Girl to get a Drivers license and drive your accepted the responsibility to drive and face the music if you so happen to wreck or get tickets or drink and drive. Life isn’t fair but there are rules. You guys see where I am coming from.
OK "Guild Contracts" come where along the line like if you join a guild you have to sign a contract or click by accepting either 3 or 6 months. What this entitles is 10+ man instances is saved to the guild within and no, one outside guild can do them unless you have a full 10 man Guild group. 5-man instance can be puged. Do this who can steel your instance ID. Guild hoppers if you get these so called ones & they cause a problem you can mute them through the Guild control settings in Guild chat there punishment is remaining in the guild till Officer appointed or GM can remove them which is the only way out of the Guild.
This will allow players to think about the choices they make and allowing us regulars to enjoy the game knowing that there are some restrictions and powers we have to play comfortably.
So lets get some comments or tweaks to this idea. I really like WoW insider to consider talking about this issue!
Rich Mar 5th 2007 2:06PM
I am a noob when it comes to raiding. (I don't raid, don't have the time for it.)
So is the Instance ID applied only to those who were in the raid or is it guild wide?
ie:
Bob was in the raid and got the specific ID.
Dave wasn't in the raid but the same guild as Bob.
Jim is the scum bag who groups with Dave, makes a raid then promotes Dave to Raid Leader.
Does scumbag Jim get the instance ID or does it only work if he does that trick to Bob?
If it's Guild wide that's even worse. Ugh... I am glad I don't raid.
Pritchard Mar 5th 2007 3:38PM
Kuri!
If you happen to read this...what did your guild do then? Give up for the night? Go run something else? Would seem pretty difficult to finish Naxx with that bullshit going on.
Kaziel Mar 5th 2007 4:32PM
@Rich: It's only those who zone into a raid instance. This allows raids to be done by PUGs (I've heard of it), and multi-guild raiding groups to go the same instance, without it being limited to one guild.
@Roguerhunter: The biggest issue I can imagine is what I just described: Guild members who want to raid but don't want to leave their guild AKA Multi-Guild Raiding Alliances. I would imagine it would be possible to sign these contracts across the guild, but that might be hard. Plus what happens if a Guild disbands, or if you have some sort of psycho dictator who is promoted and he has a vendetta against you and /gkicks you?
Roguerhunter Mar 5th 2007 10:04PM
#15 I totally understand you where your coming from. Thats why I hope that if these contracts did arrise you woundnt be able to join without the contract. Also there should be a window wher you have 2 weeks to scope the guild out that allows you to leave within that time trial period. Also if you get g/kick by officers or who ever has that power then they did you a favor why even bother with being in that guild. You just move onto another good guild that suits your needs. Also if the guild disbands then all contracts are breached ad you leave. Also in the even if a Guild manager is to leave and not come back or be active then the appointing officers could remove members and lastly remove themselves. There should be an establish or set amount of Guildies that should have the right say like 8 people to do this if needed. As long as the GM stays active then there shouldnt be a problem. I dont have all the answers but I am sure if something like this was included it would be good but then again its up to blizzard to get some of there minds together to better situate this situation with some kind of controls. Perhaps being able to make a guild could mean paying more for an upgraded service to be able to purchase the rights to create a guild. Thus leaving or restricting the huge amount of Guilds around the servers. Anymore ideas I with WoW insider could comment on this its an interesting topic to think of...
Thx for your feed back guys. Sorry if I have mispells but I have to leave work just wanted to get that out there!
yotix Mar 6th 2007 8:15AM
Blizzard have already done more than they need to IMO: The german version has a loading-screen hint saying that "You should chat with people BEFORE you invite someone into a group or trade with them."
So, erm: Someone promises to put Crusader on your sword, takes the mats, and logs off? Bummer, but, well, your fault [don't trade with utter strangers].
Someone steals your Guild's instance ID, and kills that last boss with their own guild? Same: Next time, don't take bloody thieves along (I'm not talking about rogues *g*). And, next time, clear the entire damn dungeon :-)
Roguerhunter Mar 6th 2007 1:25PM
LIKE I said no more stealing if the contracts get implemented and the instance ID stays within your guild. This way Blizzard could actually keep a track record to prove that indeed you did complete an instance or final boss etc. Look at it this way like a school mascot; no one can steel it if it’s kept on a tight leash. "GUILD CONTARACTS"
kentiam Mar 6th 2007 3:33PM
Two comments.
One: There is a bug with MC and other instances, where you can zone in as leader (my self being raid leader) with out being saved, then upon zoning in I actually join another guilds instance, becoming saved with out even a "you are now saved to this instance message".
We start clearing MC trash, notice there are no dogs. Then find out we've some how ended up in another guilds instance. The GM I contacted said they were aware of the issue. It then happend to us again 2 weeks later.
Comment Two, A solution:
The Raid leader for an instance when the ID is created (Aka first boss downed) is the OWNER of the instance. Basically give them a mean to kick players from the zone, not just the raid, or something along those lines.
Kent