Breakfast Topic: When Shaman go OOM
by Eliah Hecht 
Mar 8th 2007 at 8:00AM
In a longish thread on fixing the Shaman class yesterday, Tseric stopped by to comment on concerns that Shaman are mana-inefficient and can't do much of anything while OOM. I find it fairly informative regarding the devs' stance on Shaman and mana, so I'll quote it in full:While I can't really comment on your suggestions, there are a couple points which I'd like to address from what I know. I can certainly take the remaining feedback from the thread, at any rate. ;)
Mana efficiency for Shaman has always been on the low side. You might be arguing one of the defining characteristics of the class. However, they are also a melee class, so they can do more without mana than a mage or priest. At the base, you can apply the quoted statement to any mana-using class, but at the same time Shaman do not come out at the bottom of that pile.
Q u o t e:
Shaman need more mana regeneration. Once their mana runs out there's not much they can do.
I can pass this by the devs, regarding the quantity of mana, but again, we're talking about efficiency and saying it should be better. Of course you want more mana, but to say that Water Shield should be pushing toward some sort of complete replenishment might be too much. The group-utility issue is probably not something the devs are concerned with, as the intention is to benefit the Shaman themselves.
Q u o t e:
Water Shield is nice but doesn't provide enough mana and doesn't provide anything when you're not getting hit!
I don't think the devs ever suggested it should have group utility. When taking your example, however, you are assuming the Shaman is healing or range dps'ing, which may not be in all cases. A Shaman switching roles and doing melee damage is going to see effect from this.
Q u o t e:
Lightning Shield provides no benefit in group settings.
In further replies, he went on to say:
The recent clearcasting change is a change to support mana-efficiency. The devs aren't opposed to giving mana-regen where needed, but it can also be dealt with through itemization and not just core, class changes. You also haven't addressed the point of Shaman being able to do more OOM than a Priest or Mage.
and
Fair enough and I get your and others point [that Ele and Resto Shaman can only DPS with their low-DPS caster weapons when OOM]. You phrased it well. ;)
Again, there have been some concern from the devs before as to mana-efficiency, so it's something that has been adjusted before and could very well be again.
My usual disclaimer applies: I haven't played a Shaman past 20, so I really have no idea what they play like. Is mana efficiency a big issue? Do you feel like you have it harder when OOM than clothies do? May I refer to a manaless Shaman as a "Shooman?"
Filed under: Shaman, Breakfast Topics, Features
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 3)
mike Mar 8th 2007 12:57AM
Oh man I do play a shaman, and I have so much to say about this, I can't even get it all organized in my head. I'll just say that yes Shaman are oom even more than oomkin, and it seems that's the way the devs want it. There's all kinds of things they can do (mana tide should be trainable for all shaman, imo, and shaman dps needs a serious boost-- I mean "to compete with mages or balance" druids kind of boost), but they won't because to make the Shaman class more powerful isn't very Shaman-like.
If you can believe it, I'm bragging more than whining when I say this-- Shaman is a class defined by its weakness. We can't heal like priests or druids (our only HoT is the top level resto talent, and we have no shield to speak of), we can't dps like mages (we can't even dps like balance druids), and we can't wear plate or even buff like Paladins. The fact that we still find the time to do everything and use all of our various wacky abilities to make ourselves useful is a tribute to just how powerful Shaman are.
Ryan Mar 8th 2007 8:37AM
Yea, my ele/resto shaman has such great melee attacks when its oom. Give me a break.
Sylythn Mar 8th 2007 8:47AM
"[that Ele and Resto Shaman can only DPS with their low-DPS caster weapons when OOM"
So what, Shaman are too good to carry around multiple weapons? As a pally I have a 2-hander, tanking 1H and shield, and a healing 1H at all times. If I were a shaman out of mana, I'd be swapping out that caster weapon for something more melee oriented.
Mir Mar 8th 2007 8:48AM
With the new patch changes, my elemental shaman now get 2 free shocks, one of them being a sure crit, every 3 minutes! That's a lot of manafree nuking.
Seriously, to me it seems the shaman was designed to be manainefficient, because if it wasn't it would be incredibly overpowered. As for being useful when OOM, once the mana pool is gone, a shaman with a shield and decent armor can stay alive for ages just by meleeing and throwing off an occasional Lesser Healing Wave when manaregen allows it. Being able to take all that extra punishment seems a fair tradeoff for the lack of mana efficiency.
OvertAgent Mar 8th 2007 8:48AM
@1
You aren't supposed to be DPSing with mages. Shaman are a support class, and suggesting they get a DPS boost, is ignorant to the foundation of the entire game. Not every class does damage to the same level. Not every class can heal. It's balance (or at least as close as we're going to get with blizz).
To the topic though: Yes, they shouldn't be constantly OOM. It's obviously a problem with the class that should be addressed. I've only started playing a shaman, so I'm not completely familar with everything, but I can see that without mana, the class is pretty worthless.
Retcon Mar 8th 2007 11:18AM
Speaking as a former shaman (before the 41 pt talent changes), I was familiar with the changes up to a certain point. I have this to say:
Elemental shaman seem to have gotten a talent that increases their mp5 (the mana regeneration most relevant to hybrids), as well as this change to clearcasting. If I'm reading it right, crits get you clearcast, which gives you another cast of the spell free. This is similar to paladins' Divine Illumination, which gives us the casting cost BACK in mana. It looks to at least partially resolve the problem.
Restoration shaman (read: most raiders, who need endurance mana) will have at least 31 points in resto. MTT should be a no-brainer. The 5 point pre-req in restorative totems kinda sucks, but you're going to use mana-spring totem anyway, so it's not a worthless investment. I think they should change it to a 2 or 3 point talent with the same effect, but that's neither here nor there.
Enhancement shaman SHOULD be the only ones with serious OOM issues, and you know what? That's the way it should be. Most of their DPS comes from melee, and even they have a talent that gives them a chance to regen some mana off hits.
Even if the class still has some issues with mana, it's still WORLDS better than it was back when I was a shaman, and we got "bus shocked" in the 1.11 patch. Eyonix has definitely lost a lot of credibility, and it's good to see Tseric taking a more active role with the Shamans. At least Blizzard is taking some steps to seem concerned.
Scott Mar 8th 2007 8:52AM
A decent amount of base mana regen on Water Shield while it is up would do wonders, but it's true, without mana any shaman that's heavy into the elemental tree has no way to survive save pots. Elemental Mastery providing a no cost attack (and usually a second if the spell you cast lands) is a help though. Already since patch it's saved me a few times.
Cooler Mar 8th 2007 9:09AM
#1: Are you upset that you can't DPS as well as a pure DPS class like a mage? You have a class that can do almost everything. Heal, dps, and even offtank. Yet you are upset you are not the best at something?
And to #2: There are classes that have it the same or worse.
The class/build system is all about strenths and weaknesses. Some classes are great at some things and bad at others, some are ok at everything. Maybe you picked the wrong class?
FireStar Mar 8th 2007 9:19AM
I've seen pvp movies of shammies pwning everyone without any mana at all, so why would they overpower the class by giving them greater mana regen and whatnot if the mana is supposed to just support them a little as well?
Prauche Mar 8th 2007 9:20AM
@2 - See Comment #3.
@3 - AMEN!
Paul Sherrard Mar 8th 2007 9:40AM
By posting this, I fully expect Bliz to announce a nerf to Shammies in future patches, but I need to address this OOM stuff, at least from an elementalist point of view.
I have a 70 Draenei Shaman, his name is Wyahld, you can look him up on the armory. 571 spell damage, and my spec is 38/0/23.
With this spec, I have 28.8% crit with my lightning bolts, every crit with lightning = free lightning. I also have the talents for an instant-cast lightning, and a free critical lightning, every 3 minutes each. The +crit talents from Elem/Resto do indeed stack, and I can happily run any instance now without dropping much below 3k mana.
Your mana efficiency here is directly based on the crit % chance of your favorite offensive spell. Lightning seems to be the obvious choice. Through itemization I should be able to get close to 40% crit, which means 40% of the time I'm not spending mana to cast, and in fact I am regenning mana at a healthy rate due to the mana regen talent and further itemization.
Enhancement shammies will melee back their mana (often from 0 to 2/3 of full in a single fight), Resto shammies seem to have something called Mana Tide which works well, and Elementalists need to understand how that aspect of shammy is designed.
Try my spec, enjoy your 3k lightning bolts every 3rd hit, see your mana pool stay healthy, even in lengthy boss fights, and enjoy your high standing on the damage meters.
Bunkai Mar 8th 2007 9:47AM
I've been playing my shaman since May of '05. He's still only 62 because I've been spending a lot of time on my BElf Hunter since TBC, but he started out as an Enhancement spec for PvP, and with less than 3k mana at level 60, I could still tear through Mages, Locks(if I don't get feared), and Hunters with not problems using my Unstoppable Force. Then I spec'd DW after patch 2.0 and got two HWL daggers with +agi enchants...I was looking at around 212 main hand dps with a 22% crit rate...that's without totems or weapon enhancements active. Mana was NOT an issue in any way, not for PvP or PvE.
After TBC, I respec'd to Resto and destroyed all my PvP gear. I am able to main heal in pre TBC instances like Strat and Scholo without a problem, and I can solo in Outland just fine, for the most part, using a combination of my Lightning/Chain Lightning and Earth Shield (ES kicks ass, btw). Mana is more of an issue now, but by rebuilding my gear for +heal and +mana regen, it's getting less and less an issue every level. I went from about 3500 mana to over 6k mana just by respecing to resto and equipping the resto-based quest rewards from level 60 to 62.
I think that if you know how to play your class/build well, then it's not as big of a problem as it's being made out to be. Yes, we are less efficient than other casters (including druids depending on build), but we also have totems, Earth Shield, Mail, and the ability to equip a shield that can get us through almost any encounter.
I recently was able to solo an entire island of Naga in Zangarmarsh. At level 62, each mob was either 61 or 62, and there was approx. 5 to 7 of them.
I do not consider myself to be a great player, and I'm sure not hardcore, but I do know my class and how to play it, and that makes all the difference in the world.
Bunkai Mar 8th 2007 9:51AM
BTW, if you want to see my gear and/or talent build, you can take a look at my character on our guild roster.
http://ugotgankd.com/roster/char.php?name=Bunkai&server=Hakkar
It was last updated on Feb 9th, so it might be a bit off from what I am now (I do have 1 point in Convection now), but for the most part, it's accurate.
Happy Hunting!
Kabbalah Mar 8th 2007 10:02AM
My first level 60 (way before TBC) was a Tauren Shaman. I must say that, whenever people asked me about "how to be a successful Shaman", I replied: it's all about managing your mana pool. I don't think this is a bug or unintended behavior for the Shaman class. It's part of the Shaman class, part of learning how to play a Shaman to its full potential.
Horde has learned to deal with that a long time ago; Alliance is just getting started with the class. I must admit that if you played a Mage, Warlock, Priest etc. before, you will find it quite frustrating to play a Shaman at first - but that's part of the process and part of the fun of this class.
I remember when TBC wasn't out and the Alliance complained about how overpowered the Shaman class was, me and my other Shaman guildies used to poke fun at that saying if they played a shammy, they would go "wtf, out of mana again?!" every two minutes.
I say face it as a challenge and learn how to work around it instead of thinking it's a bug.
kbanas Mar 8th 2007 10:23AM
Just my two cents -
When the expansion came out I re-specced from a fairly standard elemental build into a fairly standard enhancement build, because I've always felt like enhancement is much better for PVE combat.
I don't know that I still feel that way because of the WF nerf, but whatever, that's neither here nor there.
Shamanistic Rage, with the right gear, makes it so that I virtually never run out of mana. I mean, with all my trinkets up and everything my AP tops out at about 1,500 - 1,600, and it seems like I can regenerate maybe 3K mana when it procs just so.
Of course, as a caveat, I usually play with a hunter, so I let the pet draw aggro and then I just whack away without fear of taking damage. When I'm on my own, I find that while I might regenerate 3K mana, I need to use maybe half of that to heal myself back up from the beating I take going head on with mobs.
Zuuler Mar 8th 2007 10:25AM
I agree with 13, and I don't even have a shaman.
I started with a warlock, who I lvled to 68. Then I created a new lock on a PVP server, who is currently lvl 29. Seems a lot of people start locks, but give up on them. Though a lock has a lot more mana than a shaman, there's a lot of mana management involved with locks, all while controlling a pet as well. Locks abilities change with their pets as well. Want extra stam/dps, use the imp, tank with VW, CC with succubus, or hunt rogues and casters with a felhunter.
Simply put, I think anyone used to a warrior or rogue class where you mash the same button over and over just aren't used to conserving mana. Rage builds through combat, and energy seems to regen quickly (from what little of a rogue I have played), but mana is a different story.
So, learn to play the class, and if you don't like it or don't want to learn, play something else. Go mash rogue buttons.
CT Mar 8th 2007 10:36AM
You can argue all you want but even with flasks and such on Gruul and Sepentine Hydross those fights show the weakness of the shaman class. I can't heal for 8-10 minutes straight while some classes with flasks are able to pull this off with ease. Healing 5 mans is a cake walk including most heroics, why because u have the pots/regen to handle 2-3 minutes fight u have the burst healing. After you use ur pot and ur tide it just goes downhill fast.
Feeple Mar 8th 2007 10:44AM
Have to agree witht he devs. I play an Enh/Resto Shaman, and there's still plenty of DPS to be had when I'm OOM. Between having totems out, which generally support the others, or with Windfury on my weapons bringing down the damage, I'm still useful when I'm OOM, even if I do have to stop and drink more after fights, or after 1-2 mobs soloing.
Mana ineffeciency is just the price for being able to do so much, IMO. We can deal decent melee DPS, we can do some spell DPS, we have a ton of support abilites, we ge to wear mail. There's not a whole lot a Shaman can't do.
Joshua Davis Mar 8th 2007 11:18AM
I am an 41 -0- 20 shammy and I really don't have much problem with mana... I chose the mana regen of the elemental tree and I have a mana cost reducing totem that was a quest time on hell fire pen.
I seem to be able to through LBs forever.. shocks are draining but LBs and CL are fine...
Urbanstorm Mar 8th 2007 10:56AM
As a lvl 64 shaman , I can honestly say this is one class blizzard got right.
Some of you guys are just asking for too much.If we had enough mana to do everything then we would REALLY be over powered.
Its a great trade off to the class without swinging the big nerf bat.Most good shamans would never really complain about mana because there are so many ways to work around it ( you just need enough gold ;-) )...