Warriors kill 99% of PUGs
by Mike Schramm 
Mar 21st 2007 at 12:14PM
Hey it's been at least a few days without a patented "Mike Schramm Troll Post," so let's go at it. Xylox over on the forums says that if a PUG wipes, 99% of the time it's because of the warrior. He says it's the hardest class to play within "a group environment," and that if you're a warrior who thinks you don't have to be prot and you don't need a shield to tank, you're the reason your PUGs keep wiping.Now, I don't know if I'd go all that far-- my warrior has tanked plenty without being specced protection, so that's definitely possible. But he does have a point-- a shield is just plain necessary for tanking. If a tank doesn't know how to keep aggro, isn't ready to take damage or pull mobs off the healers, or thinks taunt is a damage spell, the group is in trouble.
Of course, most players aren't so nice to Xylox-- they say that though warriors do need to know what they're doing, so does everyone else. If a warrior can't keep aggro because the DPS is clueless, or doesn't get heals because the priest is in shadow when heals are necessary, it's not his fault. And still other players say that the reason lots of warriors don't know what to do right away is because tanking is one of the only skills in the game that you can't learn solo-- you've got to have a helpful group to teach you how to do it the first few times.
No one actually calls Xylox out for posting like he's the warrior master on his level 10 Shaman (that's what I'd do), but the thread really does provide some interesting thoughts from both sides. Bottom line: the best way to keep from wiping is to make sure everyone in the group knows what they're doing. All should be responsible for aggro control, all should know where to target DPS and when, and everyone should play their part well. It's true that an unskilled tank can be the first to mess up a group (because if she can't hold aggro, it's over right then and there), but everyone's got to do it right to get it done.
Filed under: Warrior, Analysis / Opinion, Tips, Instances, Classes
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
Twinny Mar 21st 2007 12:28PM
its far to broad a statement, pre 70 (or 60) warriors/priests specs are for grinding their way up and its rare you find a good prot tank. an over eager mage can be just as damaging, or a warlock spamming searing pain... well because hes an idiot.
the shadow priest as main healer without good healing gear also can cause issues as can the rogue who thinks he can tank...
PuG's are aweful as you cant tell how good the players are. but placing the blame on warriors is silly. i have seen feral druids at 70 that have been terrible tanks.
Mark Mar 21st 2007 12:35PM
Blaming almost all wipes on any one class is silly, especially given the variables that go into a wipe on a 5 man PUG. In my personal experience leveling my warrior, a big problem comes more from overzealous pet classes (Hunters mostly) being unable to control the aggro on their pet, offtanks forgetting to keep the healer(s) from being pounded into paste, Mages feeling like it is their God-given right to pull 5 mobs at once in close quarters, among others.
Zuuler Mar 21st 2007 12:35PM
PUG wipes can happen for a number of reasons. A runner whos not caught in time, a mob that can MC, a mob that can fear, lots of reasons.
The only time I have looked at a player as a cause of a wipe is when a hunter doesn't turn off scatter shot when around CC mobs. Becomes a real agitation when the seduced/sheeped/sapped mob gets hit by a scatter shot and goes to town on your PUG.
Glocky Mar 21st 2007 12:38PM
KTM is your friend. Replace "warrior" with "tank" and tank can mean druid, pally and warrior. Just keep in mind the differences in talents and how they can take aggro back (or not) if a squishy / dps gets it.
The higher the tank sets the "threat bar", the higher DPS can nuke under that bar. If the fight lasts too long, the tank needs to make more threat so the DPS classes can pile on more damage.
I do like to nuke... I have had tanks say "Thanks for the workout, I had to go all out threat generation." My question is... shouldn't tanks be going all out, all the time? If they max out threat every fight, dps can max out damage and shorten the fight, even on trash. And that will keep everyone's repair bills down as well as sharpening skills. (or keeping them sharp!)
Luckily for me, I seldom pug, and the tanks within the guild and associated guilds are very talented.
Toolio Mar 21st 2007 3:19PM
You can actually find a warrior tank for your PUGs? Kudos to you!
Zuuler Mar 21st 2007 12:46PM
OOOOH then there was the smart mouthed priest who was upset that our group consisted of a mage, 2 locks, a druid, and him. He said there was no way he could keep a bunch of clothies alive unless everyone could hold their own, at which point our mage soloed a giant tree and quit, our druid got disconnected, and the other lock left because he could see the PUG was a waste of time.
Never asked that priest back for any other run ever again.
BoBoTheChimp Mar 21st 2007 12:58PM
I have a Warrior that just hit 39 last night. I've specced Arms because it seems to help me level faster. My guild is quite small so large man raids aren't in the near future. If the time comes and there is something wrong with me being arms, I suppose I'll just re-spec. I had a shield until about level 25 when I realized enemies died quicker when I used a 2 handed sword ;)
andy Mar 21st 2007 1:00PM
Cmon mike, you are just looking for the usual response like that...
Heres my suggestion for the next Mike Schramm special:
WARLOCKS ATE MY BABIES, BURNT MY HOUSE DOWN, STOLE MY WIFE, LOST ME MY JOB, MADE ME RUN OVER THAT OLD LADY, MADE LOVE TO MY DOG THEN TOLD ME TO QQ MORE. NERF LOCKS.
Karl Mar 21st 2007 1:00PM
Hunters cause wipes...because they are bad people...yep. The poor Warrior is probably taking the blame for the bad Hunter. Even if there is no Hunter in the group, the Hunter did it. Dang Hunters.
Warriors are only one of the five other (assuming you are PUGing a 5 man), and each of them are different. Sure, if you have a bad tank (any class tank), you are likely to fail. This can be said of healers as well (any class healer). The bottom line is that if you are playing with a group that has a key member who does not know how to play their role, you are going to have trouble. Warriors are just singled out in this, because if they are not tanking well, it’s not as if you can tell them, "No problem, just heal instead and (x class) will tank." Warriors get a raw deal on that. A Hybrid tank can always step out of the role and heal or DPS instead (spec dependant), and it will likely not affect the group as much, as long as another tanking class is also with the group.
In support of the OP though, I will say that if I get into a PUG and see a Warrior running around with a two-hander or dual-wielding and claiming they will tank the boss, I will be honest with the tank and the group and let them know I cannot be a part of that PUG. If a guildie wants to play around and see if he can hold aggro (and the rest of the group is not in a dire need to blow through the instance), I will generally enjoy the fight and see what happens. As a PUG though, I have no time for certain doom. Also, I am a person who is not afraid to PUG quite a bit, so IMO I have a fair and unbiased view on the matter.
Seper Mar 21st 2007 1:01PM
Ive lvled with my warrior friend from 1-64 now. He and every other warrior who tanks cant hold aggro. I launch one heal (druid) they are on me like flys. I throw down a cat form ability BAM aggros on me. If i go into bear form... omg watch out.
However this isn't really about tanking.
Warriors are almost never the reason a group wipes. Groups wipe because of a group that isn't doing their respective jobs. Being a resto druid my job is too make sure people stay alive. If I go down it falls to one of the other members. If the tank goes down they didn't have a good healer. Etc. etc.
If i could throw out my own random numbers.. i would guess that 80% of my server does not know how to play there classes. My warrior friend is very stubborn and because hes my friend i dont tell him how to play his class. But if he wasn't i would tell him off. He is also lvling a mage with me and he doesn't seem to do that right either.
So to conclude my ramblings.. most people dont know how to play there classes. If a group wipes its because of the group not the tank in 99% of the cases.
Mike Schramm Mar 21st 2007 1:02PM
Andy, I think we can all agree that the Warlock wife-stealing powers need a nerf. And that their dog-loving power is OP, imho.
Derbeste Mar 21st 2007 1:06PM
"My question is... shouldn't tanks be going all out, all the time?"
No. Not at least for a pally. There is something to be said for managing your mana pool.
That being said, with the right gear, pallies can keep aggro just as well (if not better) than a prot warrior going "all out" while still managing their resources.
Tank is one of the few jobs in WoW that ALWAYS requires true finesse and constant awareness of your surroundings.
Healing you focus on HP bars.
DPSers focus on mobs and their own aggro alone.
But tanks must be aware of all of those things.
In short...I do agree that things tend to go wrong with the tank first.....
BECAUSE THE TANK HAS THE HARDEST JOB!!!
Karl Mar 21st 2007 1:08PM
@6. Yep, you will notice that until around level 50 or so, it is still fairly easy to "tank" for a group as arms or fury. Not too much out there that can actually do a lot of damage that the run-of-the-mill healer can't handle. After 50 (a major turning point for most classes), you will probably want to respec to Prot if you are planning on running instances to level. If you are going to solo or just run through grinding levels with your friends, stick to arms/fury specs. At 70, if you are not Protection, you will likely not be welcome to tank in many instances. It's a sad but true statement for Warriors. Although, if you learn to tank well, you will find that your guild and even PUGs will gladly welcome your skills to help them out. You will be in high demand end-game.
Anyone else agree/disagree?
Brikk - Dragonblight Mar 21st 2007 1:11PM
I think pinning this on Warriors, or even tanks in general, does not accurately reflect what's going on. I think the thing that causes wipes should be termed 'a failure to control aggro.'
Tanking is a team sport. It can be only practiced in groups. And, more than just the tank learned how to get and control aggro, it also involves other party members learning how to leave aggro on the tank.
The first shot into a group gets the aggro from a group. So, if anyone other than a hunter or the MT pull a pack and get pounded, that is not the tank's fault.
If a dps class is used to going full out while soloing and then tries to continue to go all out in parties, it's easy to blame the tank for failing to hold aggro. Any experienced player knows that tanks cannot keep up with a dps class going all out. The dps guy needs to dial it back a step. Yet, often, the tank takes the blame for this.
PUGs will often not use focus fire (everyone targets and downs the same target). Then, the tank has to keep grabbing different targets, rotating aggro between them. The tank cannot consistently build aggro on one target, and then people want to say the tank cannot hold aggro. That's riduculous!
Tanking/controlling aggro is a team sport. Before blaming the tank for not being able to hold aggro, take a look at what other people are doing. As often as not, they have created a situation where the tank could not hold aggro no matter how good they are. Everyone has to work together to control aggro.
J-bob Mar 21st 2007 1:12PM
In my experience the main cause of PUG wipes is miscommunication:
- Unfocused DPS is a killer: ever try to tank 3 mobs when the DPS is spread out? everything is aggroing different DPSers and nothing goes down quickly so incoming damage stays high - it's a healer and tank nightmare
- Early pulls - as a druid tank I hate it when someone pulls before I can enrage to fill up my rage bar, No rage = hard to tank; or pulling before the healer has mana
- Early DPS - good tanks can work through this but if DPS is going crazy before the tank can get control...bad news
The main difference between good PUGs and bad PUGs has been communications. The times we were able to get on vent or waited a few extra moments between pulls made all the difference.
roar Mar 22nd 2007 7:54PM
I totally agree with J-bob. My main is a 67 Tauren Warrior (mostly Prot). I need to grab and hold 3 of the group we are focusing on. Other class, cc the other 1-2, please, while we burn down my group. Mostly, yes, we need to communicate (i.e. people need to listen). Lack of comm causes all kinds of things. DPS too soon, cc being broken. But, yes, for me as tank...hey I have a bunch of armor and HP, i'm ok, let me get 3 sunders on the main target and 1-2 on the other 2 before dumping DPS, plz. kkthx
Kaziel Mar 21st 2007 2:46PM
80% of all statistics are made up, on the spot.
Think about it...
Shat Mar 21st 2007 1:29PM
@11 BINGO! WE HAVE A WINNER!
Zotiko Mar 21st 2007 1:39PM
@#13 - I agree with you completely. My warrior is only lvl 5x, however I am the only tank in my small guild. Because my guild is small, I run a lot of PuG's, unfortunately. It is very difficult to hold aggro (even with 5 sunders) against a dps class going nuts. Combine that with 3 dps classes on 3/4/5+ mobs (crazy mage), it makes it nearly impossible for a warrior to tank b/c it costs more rage than you can generate with a shield.(not to mention the ADD you need to see everyone's aggro gain)
I did do a PuG with a pally the other day and he was pulling mobs off me like no ones business with consecration. Much grats to him for that, and I just wish thunderclap could compare...at all. IMO warriors can gain threat once every 6s with taunt, and hold it 'to a fair level' with sunders, but it is way to easy for anyone to pull aggro off, esp healers, since a heal is an aoe aggro gain. It is also most unfortunate that our good aoe aggro tool is on a 10min cooldown, but the discussion of cooldowns is for another day. (What other classes have 2-30min cooldowns again?)
I will admit I am under-geared for my level, and not specced prot as I am still level grinding. (Tried arms, but will switch back to fury)
Perhaps there is a more experienced warrior tank that can lend expertise. Or perhaps Blizz will give us tanking back AND make us a viable solo pvp candidate. (Please don't die laughing)
johnnyamerika Mar 21st 2007 2:55PM
Well, all I know is where vanilla wow was harsh on pugs, BC is ridiculously unforgiving. Boss encounters require tons of coordination, as well as each member of the group knowing what to do. Any one member of a party that sucks makes a dramatic impact now, whereas pre-bc you could still get by with even 2 or 3 bad players in your group.
The other major factor I see is that solo-leveling to 70 requires players to spec a certain way, and that usually precludes being successful in 5 mans. Warriors tend to not be prot, healers tend to not be resto/holy, and many rogues don't have imp sap. Who can blame these people really? Are you going to gimp your leveling just to perform well in pugs? For this reason, I tend to like druid tanks in pugs, because they are probably specced feral for leveling anyway, which also helps them tank. Sorry warriors.