Kalgan on Retribution
Everyone wants to DPS. And if a Paladin wants to DPS, he's likely to look at the Retribution tree. However, that tree has been somewhat de-emphasized as of late; the developers have out and said that the Paladin is a tanking/healing hybrid, and its DPS is meant to be somewhat sub-par. Of course, this implies that Ret is not a very strong talent tree: if Pallies are meant for healing and tanking, it stands to reason that Holy and Prot will probably be stronger trees than Ret.Indeed, many players are currently dissatisfied with the state of Ret, and Kalgan (a.k.a. Tom Chilton, the WoW designer responsible for classes, among other things) recently stopped by the forums to chat about Ret a bit. Here's what he had to say (the responses are scattered through this thread):
However, while I don't disagree that there aren't many highly rated ret pallies, it's worth pointing out that there also aren't many highly rated prot warriors, destro locks, balance druids, survival hunters, enhancement shamans, etc.
While trying to get each spec to be arena viable in the different formats is a noble goal, the reality is that it isn't an immediate goal for every spec to be optimized for every aspect of the game (arenas, battlegrounds, solo-ing, raiding, heroics, etc).
In the case of arenas, it seems to me that getting each class reasonably represented in highly rated teams is a more important goal, and unfortunately the paladin class happens to be somewhat grossly over-represented in this regard.
So...there's too many Paladins in arenas, therefore they can't buff Ret, because that would cause even more Paladins? Hm...
If you want to do damage in pvp as a paladin, then I'd say that ret is your spec. It just so happens that it's outshined by the reality that holy paladins are much more likely to help your team win.
Ouch! Ret Paladins, what do you think of that?
When asked whether the nerf to Illumination was a "direct result of our arena superiority," Kalgan replied:
The primary reasons to change this talent were for pve encounters and itemization (since it placed an excessive emphasis on spell crit... favoring spell crit is fine, but the power of that talent pushed the value of spell crit beyond mere "favoring").
The arena affect is secondary, although still a positive change. Of course, I say this from an overall balance perspective (obviously I don't expect holy paladins to view that change as "omg positive change for me!", but that's the nature of it).
So he wanted spell crit to not be as uber for Pallies as it was. My initial reaction was the same as a subsequent poster in the thread: Blizz writes the items; why not just reduce spell crit on Paladin gear? Kalgan:
So, solve the symptom instead of the problem? No thanks.
I'm not sure I follow his reasoning here. The "problem" is that spell crit is doing too much for Paladins. How is spell crit being all over the place a symptom of that? Ah well, I guess that's why I'm not a developer -- these things fail to make sense to me. On the topic of the Illumination nerf, by the way:
We're certainly keeping an eye on the 50% number.
I should hope so. That was a drastic overnerf, like Prayer of Mending's 20-second cooldown. And then as now, I think the smartest speculation that I've seen around says that they just threw the number out there (50% in this case, 20 seconds before) to see how it would do and how players react, and they always planned on reducing the severity of the nerf. This makes it almost look like the affected classes are getting a buff, when in fact that's only true in relation to the previous nerf.
Anyway, coming back to Ret. Players asked "if Ret's not for Arenas, what the heck is it for?" The response:
It's an effective solo'ing/questing/"grinding" tree. It's also an effective tree for damage in pvp, although most of our pvp is group oriented and your groupmates will generally prefer that you play a support role since their classes can often supply the needed dps but aren't able to supply the support a paladin is capable of.
It's also quite possible to get groups for 5-person instances as a ret pally, provided you aren't the type that will rule out healing in an emergency or for certain encounters provided it would help more at that moment.
This is definitely true. As someone who forms a lot of PuGs, I'm not in the least averse to taking a Ret Pally to fill a DPS slot. In fact, I rather like the buffs and occasional backup healing they can do. And finally, Kalgan claims (although I'm not sure I quite buy it) that Ret Pallies are viable raid DPS:
Actually, ret pallies can do some surprisingly strong raid dps if they're in a good melee group dps composition. Encouraging raid leaders to do this is the reason for this change:
- "Sanctity Aura" now increases all damage caused by affected targets by 1/2% and no longer increases healing done to affected targets.
Well, that's a lot to digest. Paladins, thoughts?
Filed under: Paladin






Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
ajpally Apr 24th 2007 2:37PM
I understand that they have to look at all aspects of the game when they look at talent trees and character balancing but arenas?
I don't think its fair to make decisions mainly or partially based on only one aspect of the game. It's not fair to solo out arena players or end game or pvp or questing to make your decision.
I personally don't think classes should be balanced. Not the point where we all end up player a hunter on easy mode (no offense to hunters) but if one class or one talent tree is a little more on offensive or defense than another class or another tree I think that is good and its good for the game.
Finding out what works best for you and your character is part of the game.
Flit Apr 24th 2007 2:40PM
Yeah. He's right on the mark. A ret pally should be for grinding and leveling, not another dps'er. If you want to dps AND tank AND heal, get real! My Ret pally is going to respec as soon as i get up to outland zones, so that I'm not another DPSer which my guild has soooo many of right now.
This is exactly what my Ret is for, going into dungeons, trying to dps the best i can, and healing when things get ugly.
Dyermaker Apr 24th 2007 3:14PM
What bothers me the most about the developer's actions with regard to Paladins, it suggests they have no real direction.
Long term Paladins might recall that photo from BlizzCon showing their desire to move Paladins into a melee role and away from the back lines with casters. This was their goal. The result of that goal was increasing spell crit gear without regard to Paladin talents which were targeting spell crit, making Paladins better casters. At the same time, they took all the focus away from anything melee! The developers say they want one thing, and yet, have only implemented the other.
Additionally, having a class spec that is so in line with the Blizzard official description of the class for 1-69, but which is frill at 70 is at the core of what many Paladins feel is the bait and switch. Priests are described as Main Healers, and yet their DPS tree is viable for grouping, raiding, and PvP.
Blizzard's vision of classes, especially this recent announcement that they are reacting to that which is most popular, suggests to me that they have no real plan. And that, more than anything, is the most disheartening thing in the game.
Astros Apr 24th 2007 3:11PM
Paladins have the best survivablity in the game...now you want more dps? Do you want god-mode too?
...and when paladins are outhealing priests on a consistent basis, there is something wrong. Priests are the games primary healers and it needs to stay that way.
Robert Apr 24th 2007 3:35PM
Slightly off-topic... but does this indicate more buffs for druids incoming? Sweet!
Viet Apr 24th 2007 4:16PM
Wow, after reading this article I feel bad for pallys. So they are "supposed" to be great healers or tanks. Every other hybrid (wars and priests included) can DPS or something else. And as another article said earlier, everyone wants to DPS. It sucks, but it seems the only way to make pallys versatile but not too much. So how about druids? They can do all 3 very well when specced. Are they next?
Also, this is not the place to argue this, but I disagree with #3. Wow has made both wars and priests hybrids (i'm a war). We can DPS/Tank and priests can DPS/heal. Your standings in the Damage/healing meters is based purely on your gear and skill, as I have seen all types of dpsers and healers at the top of charts.
Karl Apr 24th 2007 4:05PM
@3...Astros,
How do you justify the statement that Paladins are the most survivable class? Ever played a Rogue or Hunter, who can totally remove themselves from combat? I use my survival skills to make sure the group goes further.
I am a Ret Paladin. My DPS is usually 1st or 2nd in any instance I walk into. But, if another class is out-DPSing me, I don't cry about it. I welcome it. That means to me that they know how to do what they were brought into the group for. I like successful groups. Not only that, but I can still justify my slot with the buffs and the backup heals/Off-tanking when needed.
@2…Flit,
What I don't like about your statement especially is the fact that you appear to just be hateful of hybrids...and you state that you are one! “If you want to dps AND tank AND heal, get real! My Ret pally is going to respec as soon as i get up to outland zones, so that I'm not another DPSer which my guild has soooo many of right now.” Congratulations! Glad your guild has these. Why would you respect in Outlands when you get there? You still have 10-12 levels to go and I hate to be the one to tell you, but it will take a little longer as a Holy Paladin…which means you are doing your guild no good if they are trying to get to places like Kara. Maybe that is best for your guild that you respec though….
The point of this is that I cannot Heal, Tank and do DPS as well as the other classes. I can do ONE of the three as well as another, and then offer the group support with buffs and other nice to have benefits. I just happen to choose DPS. So, if you happen to find your niche in life as something other than Ret, good. But, don’t say that we should not have that option available. I’m pretty sure I know a few Shadow Priests who would agree.
TheDave Apr 24th 2007 4:05PM
While I agree that Holy Paladins needed something to take them down (and before I get flamed realize I play a Holy Paladin). I've always seen Paladins as the support class. They can melee in a pinch or heal. I've never thought about them being primary healers. However, I don't understand why if Spell Crit gear is the problem, why they aren't fixing the spell crit gear? To me, it seems like the drain is clogged so they decide to put in a new sink. The solution doesn't answer the intitial problem. I also have to say, I agree with the first post, I worked on MUDs before (if you don't know what a MUD is, think MMO except mostly text) and it's very difficult to create a perfect balance amongst classes IF you don't know where you want the class to go. Case in point, the Paladin class doesn't seem to have a defined role so every change that is made causes some ripples that affect it. With hybrid classes it's harder to plan out but I think Blizz needs to sit down and discuss a clear plan for each class and work from there. I think when they were working on talent trees that was a good step but it wasn't enough. Anyway, my 2 cents about it.
Karl Apr 24th 2007 4:09PM
Correction to post #6..."respect in Outlands" was meant to be respec...Word auto-corrected it.
Derbeste Apr 24th 2007 4:35PM
so wait.......
Did a Dev actually come out and say that certain trees are only meant to level up and then after that, it truly is useless?
That's the most bullshit I've ever heard.
If pallies aren't meant to DPS....DON"T GIVE THEM A DPS TREE!!!!
Change it to the other thing they are supposed to do well.....support!!!
Give them a PURE support tree (ie NOT healing) full of amazing auras, party buffs, CC abilities, debuffs, battle shouts (they are supposed to be "leaders"), battle altering chance abilities, and other ways to make the party better as a whole. What else could possible embody what a PALADIN is supposed to be about?
Hell here is an idea....how about judgements that you can use on PARTY MEMBERS that buff with a CRAZY buff them for 30 seconds. That ought to keep this spec of pally busy.
If a pally should be able to DPS on his own, let him disperse his DPS to the other party members this way.
There....problem solved!
Chadwick Apr 24th 2007 4:45PM
AFAIK weren't Paladins meant to be more a defensive hybrid (prot/holy) and Shamans (Ench/Elem) a more offensive hybrid???
With the off specs being slightly more off than normal.
With that said, buff shammies!
Jeff Apr 24th 2007 4:53PM
I don't think ret is truly as bad as everyone thinks it is. Sure ti could use a few minor buffs, but the bigger issue is players that don't know what they're doing with the class.
I'm sick of pugging with ret pallies that think they are DPS warriors. You know the ones, never bless the team, even when everyone stops to buff up, or if they do they use the wrong ones. Or your healer dies while a ret pally is near full mana and they don't attempt a single heal before the wipe.
And why do most ret pallies think that the only worthwhile seals/judgements are the ones that directly increase their damage. I love runs with ret pallies if they judge justice to stop runners and light to assist healing on mobs that die slow.
After the illumination nerf, holy won't be good to the point where it is the only spec worth playing, and we will see more skilled paladins rolling in the other trees and showing that in capable hands they can be viable.
majintor Apr 24th 2007 5:22PM
i agree with a previous statement that if we are supposed to be a prot/heal hybrid thats fine and i shant argue but wtf is the point of having a dps tree for solo grinding.....
kalgen needs to think before he opens his mouth and the developer teams as a whole need to have a serious think about where they want the paladin class to go (or become). I will continue to level my paladin (as i enjoy the support aspects) but should this not be fixed before WHonline comes out properly I can see me drifting off to check that out - I am a bit to fed up with blizzard at this point in time - I feel that the arena is praying (ignore the pun) to heavily upon theirs minds and that they want to make the arena balanced at the cost of pve (and leveling in general) as when the WSVG launches they dont want to see the same 3 classes fighting it out all the time (thus kalgens 'need' for balance in pvp).
god he pisses me off.
Aeralyn Apr 24th 2007 5:25PM
The problem with Retribution is that it has no real purpose in endgame. Certainly you can take a Ret pally to a raid, but it's like sticking a square peg into a round hole; unless you bring along a lot of other tools to help, it's not going to fit. I've run every 5-man dungeon in Outland (non-heroic) as Ret spec and done okay with it, but anything from Heroic content on up Ret simply doesn't cut it unless you outgear the encounter.
What many Retribution pallies want is _A_ place in endgame. Ret isn't wanted for group pvp: our burst damage is far too low in comparison to other players' stamina/resilience, our backup healing is too low in throughput and sustainability, and we don't offer anything else to the group. Ret also isn't wanted for group pve: our damage is streaky, we have no innate threat reduction (blessing of salvation goes on the other dps-ers too), and apart from the blessings any other spec of paladin can supply, we don't have any utility that isn't outdone by other classes.
So yes, Kalgan... you don't see many Prot Warriors in top-rated teams. But you also don't see many Ret Paladins in top-end raid groups, either. Almost every class has PvE and PvP trees, and we respect that. We'd just like our tree to fit into one of those and let us do well at it.
Freehugz Apr 24th 2007 6:51PM
Even if pallys did the same dps as other classes, only holy pallys would be getting invited to end game anyways. You don't need that many melee in a raid, and OT warriors/rogues/ feral druids already crowd up the backside of a mob enough as is.
Argent Apr 24th 2007 7:26PM
"After the illumination nerf, holy won't be good to the point where it is the only spec worth playing, and we will see more skilled paladins rolling in the other trees and showing that in capable hands they can be viable."
i gotta disagree with that. most 'skilled' palains who stuck with the class through months and months of oddball changes will most likley either stilll stick with holy due to it's raid viability (even in a greatly dimished capacity) or do what is usually far more likely: re-roll or quit WoW.
switching t ret makes little or no sense and those who want to go tank will propably have made the switch already (not that prot didn't get nerfed pretty hard as well with the SA changes.)
Kaziel Apr 24th 2007 7:38PM
Why don't they fix spell crit gear? The answer should be blindingly obvious... because Paladins can equip any material of gear. So lets say you remove a lot the spell crit from plate... Paladins still want their spell crit fix so instead they start looking at non-class specific cloth, leather, and mail, since those material types aren't being balanced through the removal of spell crit. So instead of getting tons of spell crit on plate for themselves, they start getting tons of spell crit on other materials, not fixing the problem and simultaniously depriving other caster classes of the gear they need. So looking at it from that perspective, there are two ways of fixing the problem:
1) Remove spell crit from all gear, penalizing all classes for something that's wrong with only one class.
2) Lower the effect of the Illumination talent, thus only penalizing the class that the problem exists with.
Honestly, I think that adequately describes why they couldn't fix it just by removing spell crit from paladin gear.
Guernia Apr 24th 2007 7:50PM
Illumination wasn't nerfed for Arena, as stated, since fight generally don't last long enough for it to matter. I'm anticipating it'll be de-nerfed slightly, but I wouldn't expect it would go higher than 70%, maybe 75% if we're really really lucky.
@Karl: I'm Holy, and I'm certainly not gimped leveling in Outland (well, except that I keep playing alts and limiting my leveling). A nice 2 hander with +heal/dam on it and plenty of other +heal/dam gear works wonders when coupled with the Holy tree's ability to also output holy damage, with fantastic heals to hugely increase survival.
As for Ret, I tried it early on, and it was okay, but the Prot AoE method was far superior at level 35 (imagine, prot > ret as far as total DPS output). I swapped to holy at 58 with all the +dam plate that started appearing and haven't looked back. I notice a huge lack of good Holy DPS gear in the tiered gear they've released, but since I'll be attending raids in a healing role that's not too disturbing. Most world PvE/grinding/solo'ing should be easily handled by quest reward or AH +dam stuff anyhow.
--
Given the damage abilities both prot and holy trees can do, the ret tree is really kinda odd, in that it doesn't give you anything much beyond what the other trees can do (increased burst, maybe) but also doesn't come with it's own set of unique abilities that make it shine like the other two trees.
Now, taking the example above, if you give the ret tree the same kind of damage output as holy and prot under their best circumstances, mix in a lot of support options not geared towards tanking or healing (so better CC, buffs, and maybe even a limited use ranged attack like the other two tres) you'd find it would be more viable in both PvE raids and PvP Arena. Give it a name change and you're golden.
twh Apr 24th 2007 10:15PM
I think it's safe to say that those tactless comments made by Kalgan show his lack of knowledge on something he's supposed to be working.
Ideally, all the talent trees should be viable in all aspects of the endgame. PvP, Arena, or Raids. There's no excuse as to why this shouldn't be.
Not enough healers? That's the fault of the genius that thought that pushing a single button for two hours was fun.
For pete's sake, it shouldn't be too hard to think of an idea that'll bring those that want to do more than heal to the front and help make the healing more fun for those that like healing, but no, they're too busy trying to build upon a broken system instead of trying to fix it.
Oh, and if you wanna see how Kalgan's comments were received, read the rest of the thread. It's up to over 30 pages and you can count the number of people that agree with him on one hand.
Andrew Herron Apr 25th 2007 12:18AM
I agree with #7 but also #17 - at least where the two arguments meet.
I don't have a problem with the illumination nerf; I'm a 100% holy pally (Spyder on Blackrock, look me up if you want) and I'm a fairly OP healer even without epics.
What I do have a problem with, and why I think the "drain is clogged so they decide to put in a new sink" argument fits perfectly, is they're not fixing our gear to fit with our spell crit nerf.
Talking to Paladins in our raid team, most of the endgame plate healing gear has crit instead of MP5 - and we'll now need a lot of MP5 gear to avoid going OOM. Unless blizz give us more options, that means priest gear.
At the end of the day though the only way this change will affect me personally is if I can't solo-heal a 5 man team. I don't want to dps or tank so there is no place for me if I'm not the primary healer. And if that happens, well there are plenty of other MMOs trying to get my money.