Patch 5.4 patch notes
Virtual Realms feature revealed
The Proving Grounds are coming
The latest patch 5.4 newsPTR Notes: Angry tailors vs. Blizzard
by Elizabeth Wachowski 
May 1st 2007 at 2:30PM
Sorry, clothie tailors -- today's not your lucky day. As Mike noted early, word from the PTR is that two of the BOP tailoring sets -- Frozen Shadoweave and Spellfire -- have been significantly nerfed, at least according to their users. As a set, Spellfire gains 29 int but loses 34 damage and 5 spell crit rating, while Frozen Shadoweave loses 34 damage and gets 24 int. The stats on the Primal Mooncloth set seem to be unchanged.
As expected, tailors are not happy about this. While it was widely acknowledged that some of the crafted sets were superior to Tiers 4 and 5, and were a big reason why mages, warlocks and shadow priests were out-DPSing melee, many tailors thought buffing the raid sets instead was the solution. Selected comments from the threads include "gg blizzard i hate you all", "this is a pathetic attempt by blizz to fix their raid game", and "This patch makes me want to kill a cat. Lots of cats. Kittens, even." However, a few casters are okay with the changes, mostly because they calculate it as a minor loss of DPS in exchange for int.
I'm not a clothie or a tailor, so I really don't have an informed reaction to this. What do you think? Is this a needed change, or is it a bait and switch for tailors who put a lot of money into their profession?
Update: Looks like angry tailors win.
Filed under: Mage, Priest, Warlock, Tailoring, Patches, Analysis / Opinion, News items
Reader Comments (Page 2 of 3)
Thallid May 1st 2007 4:26PM
@13
Apparently, this isn't something Blizz has been making much effort to improve. As @9 mentioned, Engineering is one of the saddest examples of their neglect. Come on! Who in mind would make a craftable Epic gun that awful?! And the plate healing goggles; well, if you're gonna nerf something, then make sure you don't throw more things for the thing that you plan on nerfing! (The extra spell crit with the nerf on Illumnation.)
Either way, as mentioned before, Blizz has a weird way of listening to certain people when they go out with their QQ riots and threatening to cut and hang themselves, rather than people who make reasonable arguements.
Halicante May 1st 2007 4:30PM
You people who are saying that the nerf was warrented are on crack. It was a 19% +dam nerf that turned some really nice PVE gear into side grades to blues and kara dudu epics.
The mats for spellstrike and frozen shadow weave are obscene. I just did a quick calculation, and a spellfire tailor using all his own cooldowns and none of his friends's would need 51 primal fires, 13 primal manas, 13 imbued netherweave (26 arcane dust, 12 stacks netherweave). In addition with the cooldown requirement it would take over a month to make.
Halicante May 1st 2007 4:33PM
Oh and that's besides the fact that leveling tailoring after 360 is about 100g in mats per point, with the points yellow at 360.
What a nightmare.
Halicante May 1st 2007 4:34PM
Yellow at 370 rather. sigh...long day.
Robert May 1st 2007 4:43PM
I wish, as a feral druid with 375 leatherworking, I could make a tier 5-equivalent BoP set. Really though I'd settle for a single piece at Karazhan levels.
The biggest question is what idiot at Blizzard designed the tailoring sets in the first place? Everyone knew how ridiculous they were -in beta- and now 90% of raiding casters have them in live and its too late to balance them.
Greg May 1st 2007 4:50PM
The sets are not overpowered. T4/5 are UNDERPOWERED. It's not a matter of the itemlevels, it's a matter of item budget allocation. Blizzard's item designers are spending item budget on stats that players simply do not want. If the item budget for T4/5 were reallocated in such as way as to correlate with the way players actually play their classes, then the T4, with an equal item level to the crafter sets, would be of an equal degree of power, while T5, with an item level higher by 15, would be significantly better. Instead, blizzard's item designers have loaded up T4/5 with things players do not want. Crit for a shadow priest? Dodge on the rogue shoulders? Tons of mp/5 for hunters? Are the item designers even playing the game, or are they just making stat selections by throwing darts at a board?
Let's look at warlock sets. T4, Voidheart, is dripping with spell crit rating. Affliction warlocks, which make up the majority of raiding warlocks at this point, don't want crit. We want spell damage, and maybe some spell hit. It's also loaded with stam, and int. Stats are nice, but the degree of stam this set brings is more suited to PvP, and the int would be better suited to a class that can't turn life into mana. It's a clear case of a misspent item budget. T5 is the same way - tons of crit, lots of stats, not enough damage. The fix to this issue is not a item level buff, it's a re-budgeting of how the item budget is spent. Blizzard needs to actually observe the ways in which players play this game, and use those observations to make T4 and T5 more alluring.
Pritchard May 1st 2007 4:58PM
#18...if you can out dps all the mages with those sets, why would you care if they were nerfed or not?
Doesn't make any sense. But you go ahead and think that way, noob.
Rich May 1st 2007 4:56PM
Man, I am glad they decided to keep it. I am 15 primal waters away from having the whole Frozen Shadoweave set. Although the "nerf" wasn't too bad, it defeated the purpose for me going after that particular set.
As some one who never planned on raiding, the BoP tailor sets were nice addition to the game. It gives me something to somewhat level the playing field with those who do raid. Some may think the mats are ridiculous, but I don't think its that bad, just really time consuming. There needs to be more stuff like this, but they need to drop the silly profession level requirement to wear thing. If I go through all the headache and time to get the mats to make it, I should be able to drop tailoring and get back mining so i can finish leveling my JC.
Pritchard May 1st 2007 4:59PM
@13.
Yes...because whining brings about changes. Right? Immature behavior on the forums and in-game gets results. Right? Priests staging spam protests in-game got you guys everything you wanted. Oh wait...it didn't.
You fail.
Thallid May 1st 2007 5:07PM
@28
Perhaps you can explain why there was a slight reduction to the Shadow Priest nerfs after all those riots.
What he and I meant to say is that it's dissapointing that people can get what they want just by QQing and making suicide or account cancellation threats. It goes to show that those who whine like that are spoiled children, and Blizz is the parent who gives in to such immature behavior.
And would you have any explaination as to why reasonable arguements don't get as much attention in comparison?
Scruffy May 1st 2007 5:26PM
@29
Much obliged for carrying it on so well.
Pritchard May 1st 2007 5:47PM
If I remember correctly, shadow priests didn't have the biggest complaints--holy priests did. Ask the average holy priest on the priest forum if they feel their concerns in the holy tree have been addressed...
Outrage is legitamite. It just doesn't produce the changes you think it does. Blizz has heard it all before.
Freak May 1st 2007 5:55PM
@29: I think it's ridiculous to generalize all tailors as QQ'ing about this issue, and all priests as being sane, sober, and intellectual about their continual nerfing.
What I see when I go to nearly any of the Blizz forums is the same as it's always been since I've started playing MMORPG's: 90% immature brats threatening to cancel their accounts over trivial nerfs, and 10% people who take time to explain their complaints intelligently and calmly. It's the same on the priest forums and the 'lock forums and the profession forums and the general forums and and and.
I have no idea whether Blizzard responds to any type of complaint more readily...I assume it matters on which GM or CM reads your complaint and who their boss is more than anything.
Sheala May 1st 2007 6:03PM
There is a few Key elements you guys are missing here in your Ranting and Ravings. First off, Do you even know what a train wreck tailoring was before these sets came out. The best thing we could make was a Bag. Did you also notice that there is no friggen possible way to make money with enchanting as you level it up. NONE. These is also a GOD AWFUL dependence on Enchanting materials to Create the high level tailoring items, We need damn arcane dust just to make a BOLT of cloth. What if you had to use Arcane dust to make a Bar of Metal?
We cant go out and fly around to nodes or Herbs, we have to kill humanoids, and HOPE they drop some cloth. Do you realize it takes 108 Pieces of Cloth, 12 arcane dust, 2netherweb spidersilk (a low drop rate items from spiders in outlands) for ONE FRIGGEN SKILL UP. I don't think you realize the crazy amount of money/time it takes to make these items. Not to mention once you specialize you can make 2 pieces of cloth, every 4 days, that require Farming for Primal Fires, etc.. and the tailored Robes need 20 or so of these cloths. What other skill hasa 4 day timer to make Material? All of the "sets" are BoE, and you have to specialize in that set to wear or make it. But the best part of this is when we get to max level, these 4 day timer items are the only things we can make money from. But guess what, the only people that want to buy or can use this cloth, IS OTHER FRIGGEN TAILORS THAT CAN ALREADY MAKE IT. So the only reason it sells right now is because people are impatient. I cant do anything Special to make money.
I mean seriously think about it. Only some people can farm ore, only some people can Pick Herbs, only some people can skin animals, only some people can disenchant items, or enchant your items over and over again. EVERYBODY CAN FARM CLOTH, EVERY TAILOR CAN MAKE EVERY DIFFERENT KIND OF OUTLAND CLOTH, I can make spellcloth, and shadowweave, I just cant make 2 at once... WOOPITY DO! Unless I have a Rare Epic Pattern, I have no way to make money from any other Person apart from other Tailors. Same thing is going to happen to tailoring that happened before. Mooncloth used to sell for a shit load back in the day. Once all the tailors had mooncloth items... it started selling like crap. Also unlike Enchanting the only other tradeskill that doesn't have a gathering talent to go with it, I don't have something that will ALWAYS be in demand. People will always get new items, and always want enchants. Where is tailoring's "riding crop." Why the hell do I have recipes that need elements from enchanting, and herbalism but yet they don't need anything from tailoring for their recipes. OH wait I forgot! We can make spell threads!!!! That totally makes of for it, we can enchant peoples pants. with faction earned recipes that require PRIMALS and vendor items. So like I said, unless a tailor gets some UBER RARE tailoring Recipe, we have no chance to earn money with this skill for long. Once the market is flooded with Primal mooncloth.. etc.. we are doomed. And if I want to keep on wearing my 3 piece set, I have to stay a tailor.
So before you start bashing on tailors and how "Great" our sets are. Consider the fact I went to BC 300 tailor, and spent ridiculous Gold/time, to the point that I got 70 3 weeks behind my friends, and 2 of my friends maxed Jewelcrafting, before I had my 3 piece set done. I was first on my server with the Mooncloth belt, at level 68 I couldn't even wear it. It took me about another 3 or 4 weeks of buying cloth on AH, Farming, and getting all the cloth my friends picked up mailed to me to get 375 tailoring. I had the materials for my Primal mooncloth robe, BEFORE i had 375 skill because it requires so much damn time and money, and OTHER PROFESSIONS MATERIALS, to level up.
I also failed to mention that if a tailor has a rare pattern they can make money with... its REQUIRES PRIMAL NETHER, So if you cant do a heroic, you are boned. Oh and if a Blacksmith, Engineer, Enchanter isnt already going after it.
Dont even get me starting on Cloth drops. A friggen enchanter can Get Green/blue items from EVERY instance, from ANY mob... But if its not huminoid, I have a chance to get Jack, and shit.
Leatherworks kinda has it bad too, but i mean they can make some Mail items, some Leather items, they can always get skin from a killed beast, What sets it apart is the fact that only a Skinner can get these items. So it makes them rare, and they can make money from selling the skins duel to a small market, or fun their own leveling up. The fact that a damn minor can pickup some cloth while farming for Ore, sell the ore AND the cloth that some tailor will buy cuz they need it to level up is what pisses me off. Also a Leatherworker's best items can all be worn by different Professions/classes... A blacksmith can wear all the cool leatherworking stuff, But not a tailor.
And dont even get me started on enchanting. I admit that it like tailoring doesnt have a sister talent, but what sets the 2 FAR FAR apart is that Enchanting is used by EVERY CLASS and EVERY PROFFESSION. Also the fact this game is bassed around Getting new items, and constantly upgrading over and over again. I mean I make a Robe for somebody, thats it, they got the robe, they never need crap from me again. While as an enchanter, I can end up enchanting the same guys robe 4 or 5 times as he gets new ones threwout his playing. And that hold true for every single player in the game. Mulitpliyed by 10fold if you have a rare enchant.
You can moan about how uber our 3 piece sets are.... but you have to realize the Sacrafice that is made on a tailors part to level up/ Make Money and get these "amazing" items, that we have to be a Tailor/Specificly Speced to even equip or use.
Blacksmithing was going to share a similar fate until Gems Came around and the fact Ore can be prospected for Gems which like enchanting are constantly changed and upgraded over and over, making Mining Ore a profitable Skill ontop of supplying Miners with materials.
Key point I am trying to make is... STOP BITTCHING
TheTreasoner May 1st 2007 6:04PM
Nerfing anything is a major mistake, IMO. They did a good job unnerfing this stuff, for the mats involved they were properly balanced. Kara and the like, epics blow. Why, when they actually did a good job putting points where they need to go on items, would they nerf them? Re-itemize Kara epics, please.
Oh, and for the love of god, improve engineering.
Pritchard May 1st 2007 7:09PM
Tailors's riding crop are the bags, which everyone needs many of (alts, banks, etc.).
Guernia May 1st 2007 7:49PM
@33:
[quote]We cant go out and fly around to nodes or Herbs, we have to kill humanoids, and HOPE they drop some cloth. Do you realize it takes 108 Pieces of Cloth, 12 arcane dust, 2netherweb spidersilk (a low drop rate items from spiders in outlands) for ONE FRIGGEN SKILL UP.[/quote]
I would take the rest of your paragraphitis more seriously if you hadn't added this part. This is kind of a deal breaker here.
I mean, yeah, it must be so tough that at level 70 you have literally hundreds of fast-spawning level 60-64 humanoids to totally own and loot for cloth, wheras miners and herbalists have it easy competing for relatively rare low spawning nodes and herbs. And enchanters, man, they've got it so good, what with the ultra-high drop rates for uncommon or better items.
Also, at level 65, doing the Terokkarantula quest (and the one before it) I managed to farm 6 pieces of netherweb spidersilk. Yup, tough droprate there.
12 arcane dust? Couple gold, which you probably looted from all those humanoids. Or, *gasp*, roll an alt! Or take enchanting as a second. Or hell, to ward off your previous incorrect point, take mining, fly around and get all that abundant free ore, AH it and buy your tailoring mats. Easy, right?
Thirdly, you mention that tailors make bags (which always sell well, since all 9 classes need them), then go on to say that you have no way of making money. Are you high?
Finally, 4 day cooldown. Yep, that's tough, all right. Maybe you should do what I did pre-BC for my mooncloth, and have 4 tailors? That works out to 1 piece per day. With the BC specializations, that's 2 pieces for day. What, leveling alts is too much like hard work for you? Tough. No pain, no gain.
Try leveling something really a pain in the ass, like blacksmithing, or jewelcrafting (if you neglected to hoard gems prior to TBC) if you want to bitch about tough-to-farm mats.
Oli May 2nd 2007 7:09AM
I mean, yeah, it must be so tough that at level 70 you have literally hundreds of fast-spawning level "60-64 humanoids to totally own and loot for cloth, wheras miners and herbalists have it easy competing for relatively rare low spawning nodes and herbs. And enchanters, man, they've got it so good, what with the ultra-high drop rates for uncommon or better items."
60-64 mobs drop 1 or 2 pieces every 3 mobs, yeah a fantastic drop rate.
"Also, at level 65, doing the Terokkarantula quest (and the one before it) I managed to farm 6 pieces of netherweb spidersilk. Yup, tough droprate there."
Have you ever tried grinding this? it took me 2 hours to get teh 8 pieces I needed last time.
"12 arcane dust? Couple gold, which you probably looted from all those humanoids."
Couple of gold? Arcane dust goes for between 40 and 50g a stack on nearly every server. It was this that really boned me when i was leveling my tailoring up, even as an enchanter I didnt have enough arcane dust to supply the need for imbued bolts fo netherweave, the 100g a skill point for tailoring at 360+ is in my opinion an understatement.
"Thirdly, you mention that tailors make bags (which always sell well, since all 9 classes need them), then go on to say that you have no way of making money." This is true, however competition is fierce and I rarely get more than a couple of g for selling a bag, maybe if bag creation was limited to the distinct tailoring profession it would be better, mooncloth tailoring would then become a viable path for more people and teh market would no be as flooded as it currently is.
Finally, 4 day cooldown. Yep, that's tough, all right. Maybe you should do what I did pre-BC for my mooncloth, and have 4 tailors? getting 4 tailors to 350 tailoring? do you realise how much that would cost? If I farmed the mats myself I would be playing till the next patch to get them to that level.
"Try leveling something really a pain in the ass, like blacksmithing, or jewelcrafting"
True, blacksmithing is one of the hardest to level, cant agree with jewelcrafting though, especially when matched to mining, people had this upto 375 within the first 5 day (And thats just who I know)
Most of this comment is an unfounded rant on the tailoring profession, before you start telling people to do the oh so quick and easy things (Ie lvl up four lvl 70s and get their tailoring to 350-375 I suggest you try making a tailoror at 375.
Cysne May 2nd 2007 7:15AM
Hello all,
It seems a lot of people think that the tailoring sets are overpowered, I for 1 would like to know how so? Do I have the wrong way of thinking? Or do others don't see it? I mean I play a mage and have the spellstrike and spellfire set. Sure the spellfire set has quite some damage for arcane and fire but this also means that my ice will be like 110 - 120 less powerfull then other mage's. It's all about sacrifice. the spellfire set sacrifices Ice power, Stamina and Intelect for power to the arcane and fire tree only. I have like 6060 HP where as other mages have around 8000 HP, and i managed to pass 6000 becuase I am a jewelcrafter and have the Figurine - Living Ruby Serpent, otherwise my HP would be 5700. My mana pool is 9000 where other mages have 10000+. So how is the spellfire set overpowered? It's like people are not seeing what u have to sacrifice for this set. Sure tier 4 and 5 will have a little bit less power for the fire and arcane tree, but the overall power and stats are much bigger, your ice power won't be a total wimp and you will have much more stamina and intelect. So i'm sorry but i don't see why the spellfire set is being considered as overpowered, to even have to get nerfed. It's a sacrifice we pay, to have more power, but to suck at another tree and to be able to get 1 shoted to death.
Jim May 2nd 2007 3:49PM
Wow, Cluffer. Does it hurt to be that stupid? The addition of Tailoring patterns does not nerf your Alchemy. The fact that your guildies don't want to run with mages who don't have Tailoring gear crafted is their issue, not mine. The issue is not whether your game experience has changed due to the addition of new content -- that happens constantly.
The issue is whether or not there should be refunds or free respecs when a purchased item, spell or talent is changed, not when someone else's is changed.
Please avoid giving your head a shake -- with all the empty space in there you might get a concussion.