Who needs CC anyway, amirite!?
by Mike Schramm 
May 1st 2007 at 3:25PM
Crowd control is definitely helpful, that I'll agree. It's much easier to do a Shadow Labs run with two mages who know how to sheep. But I also have to agree with sydney over at WoW Ladies: CC is far from necessary. You can have a great group and still fight all of the mobs all of the time.Gear, of course, makes a big difference. If your shaman has a few epics on him, chances are he can take a few hits before the tank has a chance to grab a mob off. And a group with tons of DPS can do really well at tearing down a mob as they pull them-- I've played in groups where we never once bothered with sheeping. We just had so much DPS that when we pulled something off of the tank, we killed it before it could hit anyone.
Not to mention that even if you have a group without CC, there are plenty of abilities that you can use as CC. During my Heroic Slave Pens run this past weekend, we had me (a resto shaman), a prot warrior and a holy priest, a moonkin druid, and a warlock. Whoops, no sheeping or traps, right? Nope, but we did have cyclone, chain fear, my elemental pets, and mind control. Ok, well, my elemental pets did drop pretty quick (it was heroic, after all), but incredibly (even though we were a little undergeared for the instance), we made it far enough to pick up two Badges each. Yeah, the mind controller gave us a little trouble, but it was getting late anyway, so we called it.
CC helps, and you do kind of need the basics (tank, healer, and DPS, although it's true that even with those, you can make some subs that don't seem possible), but the truth is that the limit of your group is the limit of the players in it. All of the classes have some ability to keep mobs out of play (or just keep them busy for a little bit until you're ready to fight them). It's just up to players to think of creative ways to do so.
Filed under: Mage, Rogue, Warlock, Analysis / Opinion, Tricks, Instances, Classes
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
Shandar May 1st 2007 11:07PM
Sheeping allows a group with many weakness to experience content that they otherwise would not be ready for. 2 mages sheeping makes many runs "easy mode" but is not a requirement.
Scruffy May 1st 2007 3:38PM
Dear Mike,
More CC plzkthx.
>>-- Priests~ :D
(No, MC doesn't count since it takes me out of the fight as well.)
ebayes May 1st 2007 3:39PM
OK, that is it. I have sat idle listening to how mages are getting the nerf, that they are not needed, and that we are a worthless class. You know what, throw at me what you will. I will not change class, I will not back down, and certainly won't let any other class put me out because of being worthless. We hold our own and we are DEFINITELY needed. The difference in not having a mage in the group/raid - repair bills and chance on death. So please, keep saying that we are "useless". You'll find out in the long run.
Rython
Blackhand - US
ebayes May 1st 2007 3:41PM
One more thing, you may have gotten that last mark if you had mage CC.
Aaron May 1st 2007 3:47PM
Seems odd to me you don't mention your Warlock has CC ability: Seduce. It only works on humanoids, but there are more than a few naga it's worked really well on.
Or does CC only = poly in peoples minds?
Lothy May 1st 2007 3:48PM
Hear Hear! I play a mage as my main and CC actually is probably one of the best things in SLab. Oh look, that assassin came at the start of the pull...oh look, he is a turtle now =P The mage class is the epitome of DPS and control (esp. frost). I have only known one rogue to out DPS me and he is in 25-man epics. And yes, MC is only good if your priest is not your MH.
Mike Schramm May 1st 2007 3:45PM
Man you mages are testy. You got your tailoring change rescinded, back off for one article, please.
And, Scruffy, did you see that I play a resto shaman? If there's a line for more CC, I'll be in it right behind you.
But my point is that CC is helpful, but not necessary. Rython, I don't think mages are a worthless class by any means-- I always need free water. But they are not *necessary* to have a successful group. No one class should be.
Jeroboam May 1st 2007 3:46PM
I've done a lot of the heroics without CC for lack of a mage. We did heroic Steamvaults with only one Priest for MC as CC and did just fine. In none heroics, it's really not needed though.
Once you get geared enough, its just chain pull and AoE through the 5 mans. A group with my pally tanking, two mages, and a shadow priest can go through Shadow Labs in 45 minutes and have Shattered Halls down to 30 minutes.
Klatz May 1st 2007 3:50PM
I love sheeps, er in a purely platonic CC way, as a mage. But I will say that use off CC tends to slow an instance down with marking and what not. I'd rather just burn through one as quickly as possible.
Mike Schramm May 1st 2007 3:54PM
Aaron, yeah our warlock didn't trust Seduce in a Heroic. I've never played a warlock, but from what I understand, the DR is pretty harsh on it (it's meant more for PvP where things move fast), and any damage will break the spell. It was just easier for us to keep them feared.
Cailleach May 1st 2007 5:33PM
Funnest SL run ever? Moonkin, holy priest, shadow priest, shadow priest, prot pally. One hour 15 minutes end to end, no deaths. We had lots of CC, but not 'typical' CC, and just ran though the Labs like a hot knife through butter. Heck the .. that boss the calls the blueberries.. didn't have time to call a second one before he died! Let's hear it for non-stereotypic groups!
Karl May 1st 2007 4:04PM
I like to have Mage CC when possible, but I don't feel it is absolutely "needed" to be successful in any instance. When I am playing my Pally, I use Righteous Defense on a Macro with the healer as the target, and I spam that sucker. No one goes near the healer...ever. I am Ret spec and will fall if too many mobs gank me at once, but with stuns and repentance to help, I keep focus on one or two mobs while the group can kill off the rest. The healer is free to heal me when I need it. Rarely have any issues. Tanks love me too for backing them up when stuff goes wrong.
Hunters (All hunters are bad, mmmkay?) can be useful for temp CC as well. Silence shot is a saving throw when used correctly, and traps make healers warm and fuzzy. As long as the Hunter is not an idiot (good luck finding one of those), and does not feign death, you can get far.
My warlock is great for fear kiting if needed. I don't care for the Succy much, but it looks promising to use after the patch. Still, I don't think they will be a truly valid form of CC.
Rogues...If you can sap it, good. If not stun lock the dang thing.
Druids using sleep when needed make life easier, but I rarely see it used anymore.
I don't think Priest MC is a good method, so let them stick to either healing or DPS (although I still haven't seen a truly great Shadow DPSer, not saying they aren't out there).
Warriors should be your main form of CC...Don't pull aggro from them and keep them up. Great CC.
Shaman don’t offer much for CC, but a well played one can support the group enough to make up for it. Totems, some armor and a good choice of specs can make them worth taking in place of a Mage.
Like I said earlier, Mage CC is great, and I prefer it when it is available, but don’t let someone tell you that the group is doomed without a Mage. I have run Shadow Labs so many times it makes my head hurt. Done with and without a Mage many times. Again, I run it with my Pally most of the time, and I can just spam Righteous Defense to make up for the loss. I haven’t tried SL on my Rogue or Warlock, so maybe I should reserve judgment on group make-up when there isn’t a Pally there.
Sylythn May 1st 2007 4:27PM
Well maybe we're just not geared well enough - but my first experience in Heroic Slave Pens revealed that we didn't have *enough* CC. We had Fear, Seduce, Sheep, and Mind Control - and unless we got the group down to 5v1, we were done. Worse yet, there's a known bug that the bogstrok are immune to standard humanoid CC like seduce and mind control. I agree if you're running content that is far below your ability level, you don't need it - but if you're at level or trying something new, it's very necessary.
ganksauce May 1st 2007 4:30PM
@4
yeah i've heard enough about mages for one day. leave one article a day please.
@2 WTH are you talking about bro?
Robert May 1st 2007 4:33PM
I don't know what instance you were running but nothing in heroic underbogs casts mind control.
You are half right - crowd control is often unnecessary, even in heroics, with a well geared tank. However all of the things you list (kiting, cyclone, fear, mind control, kiting) are forms of crowd control, anyway. In another sense, so is an off-tank. Perhaps the point you're trying to make is that classes other than mages can CC. Did people really not know this?
Also tell your warlock to stop sucking. Seduce has no DR in PvE, it IS meant to be used as crowd control in instances, some stuff in heroics is immune but a lot isn't (even less after 2.1), and any warlock who says otherwise is in serious need of some l2p.
Finally mages are one of the worst CC class in heroic underbog. The only pulls where CC helps are the elementals near the beginning (i.e. banish), the larger bat packs (your moonkin should sleep) and the humanoid packs (seducable, but they hit like little girls). I run with a mage and we hardly ever sheep anything in there.
Mike Schramm May 1st 2007 4:36PM
Robert, you're right, I ran both UB and Slave Pens this weekend, and this run was SP.
Robert May 1st 2007 4:50PM
Ok, your post makes a lot more sense in that context :) Heroic SP does have a lot of mass humanoid pulls and if your warlock wasn't seducing that's a lot to deal with at once. Your main problem though was running two full healers, you need a lot of DPS in heroics, and with a good tank, DPS > CC.
Gazoo May 1st 2007 5:00PM
Hunters can out-CC almost any class. Period.
Hunter Traps affect practically everything, we can trap a mob where we want it (not where it happens to be standing) and we can keep the traps going almost indefinitely.
Temp CC? Hardly.
You know what makes Hunter traps break? Warlocks who insist on dotting everything in sight. Mages who Frost Nova the crap out of everything for no reason except a mob was running at them (instead of letting the Hunter deal with it)... and so on ad nauseum.
YOU make the Hunter CC temporary, not Hunters.
Most Hunters are not horrible, most Hunters do not need to L2P, YOU need to learn to play with a Hunter and allow them to play their class the way they are supposed to.
There are no more bad Hunters then there are bad Mages, Paladins or anything else.
tomhennessy May 1st 2007 5:18PM
Sooo...what you're saying is that any group is fine, as long as it's overgeared or you're ok with not finishing the instance? Yes. Yes, you're right...
Scruffy May 1st 2007 5:19PM
@4
Heh, but you get mail and a shield, too. We get... Power Word: Shield (now with 20% effect from +healing :P ) and fear (great for a wipe in crowded situations).