What would it take for ret pallies to raid?
by Elizabeth Wachowski 
May 11th 2007 at 2:05PM
Retribution pallies have a pretty bad reputation among a lot of raiding guilds. They're widely believed to have inferior DPS and low utility. And even as feral druids, prot pallies and shadow priests have become accepted in non-healing roles, ret pallies have been left out in the cold. Megas of Hakkar is frustrated with this situation, and asks the forums: What class changes would it take for a ret pally to get a raid spot in your guild? A healing factor like shadow priests have? Some form of group mana regen? The group buffs of ret pallies include a small healing-received (DPS in the next patch) aura and a judgement that can increase crit chance on a target by 3 percent.
Most of the respondees noted that they couldn't think of anything that would cause them to give a ret paladin a DPS raid slot. While there's no real hard numbers on ret paladin DPS, a lot of the raid leaders have had very bad experiences with pallies at the bottom of the DPS meters, and in the current bleeding-edge 25-mans, you can't really have inadequate DPS. There's a lot of talk about how to make ret viable in the paladin forums, but a lot of holy and prot pallies think ret is a lost cause, and it gets pretty heated in there.
I don't personally have enough experience with ret pallies in a raid environment to judge their DPS. My own pally went prot at 45 and never looked back. But I do think that people who rolled pallies to DPS in PVE may want to rejudge their choice. Paladins are possibly the best single-target healing class in the game, and make respectable tanks for most instances and superior tanks for multiple mobs. One class can't be the best at everything, and in difficult raids, raid leaders are going to min/max to get the best DPSers/healers/tanks there are. I'm content for paladins to be tanking/healing hybrids.
What do you think about ret pallies? Underutilized DPS resource, or waste of a raid spot?
Filed under: Paladin, Analysis / Opinion, Raiding
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 3)
Druid dude May 11th 2007 2:13PM
What would it take? Give say, Hunters, Mages and Warlocks healing spells!
Ecko__18 May 11th 2007 2:22PM
Completely underutilized, Ret brings a lot of utility (as long as the paladin knows what he is doing). A well geared paladin can put out a substantial amount of DPS, but is missing some of the tools that would help make us a viable replacement in a raid over a pure DPS class. If we had some sort of burst heal built into out melee based on the DPS we do, or have vengence affect the DPS of those in the pallys group, I think we would be a lot more desirable. Now granted, i dont want to top the DPS charts or anything like that, but I would like my spec to be competative in end-game. Also, a good ret pally always has his healing set with him in my opinion, we are hybrids and meant to be played as such.
Maedhras May 11th 2007 2:25PM
I wonder how high the same ret pallies would score on the dps meters if it factored in the extra dps the other 24 raiders got from his/her blessings/judgements (and the fact that 1 ret pally can keep all other pally judgements up on the mob by himself).
Once again, relying on DPS meters only to know who to invite and who to reject can make you lose some quality players.
superbeef May 11th 2007 2:31PM
Man... when will the Ret Pallies learn? I'm a paladin myself and I almost wish they'd just get rid of the ret spec entirely.
Blizz has stated several times: Ret is for soloing and PvP. Paladins AREN'T Druids. Retribution is NOT Feral.
The retribution tree itself should really just be changed away from doing any damage and focused on judging more. The way things are now, if a raid wants a Ret paladin (which they don't) they'll only want one. And even then, the ret pallie better be ready to cure.
Yes, we're a hybrid class... but that doesn't mean we can fill all the roles. Paladins are meant to, even by flavor, be the lowest melee dps job in the game. Retribution isn't meant to change that or even put you on par with a dps job, it's to close that gap while still allowing you the versatility that makes us a hybrid in the first place.
Rabbid May 11th 2007 2:32PM
Ret pallies are good for one thing:
Farming primals for the real paladins.
infection May 11th 2007 2:38PM
I'm not understanding the problem. Now we have a class that can tank, heal, and dps. But that is not good enough.
Do rogue gets heals? Tanking? No, they are a dps class. Same as a lot of other classes.
@2 you said it correctly, you are a hybrid class. Why do you want to be on the level of a dps character in the raid. Play another character, or be satisfied you can actually do 3 types of play mode.
It's just getting ridiculous now. Let's give plate characters comparible dps (plus the ability to heal) to keep up in a raid.. and totally screw over other classes and unbalance the pvp system all together.
Pallies have argued their way into being able to do anything on the server now. Lets add more to it please, it's not enough. Thx
Beorin May 11th 2007 2:39PM
Is it stands, there are already four classes capable of outputting raid-viable melee DPS: Rogues, Warriors, Shamans, and Druids (Shaman being a weaker link but still notable); all four classes exceed Paladins' DPS capabilities by a large margin in TBC. Retribution should never be a viable choice for raid DPS, because that would squeeze a spot that already has more than enough players contending for it. Healer and tank spots are far more scarce, and those just so happen to be the two areas at which Paladins excel. Are Paladins the only class incapable of dealing damage competitively? Perhaps, but considering the other strengths of the class, I don't believe this is unfair, just as Moonkin are not rationally expected to compete with Mages and Warlocks on damage (regardless of their limited group utility, they are rarely a sought-after spot filler.)
In my opinion, in lieu of great DPS, Paladins should be made much stronger tanks, equalling or even exceeding Warriors in most circumstances. In keeping with the tradition of Diablo II (from which WoW drew nearly countless influences,) Paladins tanks should be shield-reliant with a greater number of strong auras and self-buffing abilities. Whereas Warriors should be high-HP soakers who are inferior for long-term fights like bosses, but who are great for big groups with abilities like Cleave and Whirlwind. (Ignore the fact that in Diablo II, Paladins also did absurd amounts of damage, albeit through game mechanic loop holes like Crushing Blow.) It'll never happen though!
Rich May 11th 2007 2:41PM
@1
Uhhhhh, Locks already have healing spells.
All self-healing stuff except for the cookies and cookies jars.
Ecko__18 May 11th 2007 2:44PM
I think another thing that is holding Ret back from being accepted in raids is the community of people who rolled a pally to just heal. There is a large group of pallys that try to put down any play style that is not their own, and they are usually Holy specced and are just elitests. Just because its not the way you play, doesnt mean its the wrong way to play. Not saying that all, or even most holy pallys are like this, just seems to be that they are the loudest.
RogueJedi86 May 11th 2007 2:47PM
People can say Paladins can't/aren't supposed to DPS, but look at the Lore that defined Paladins. Prince Arthas and Uther Lightbringer weren't famous for being healbots, or even taking 20 mobs at once. They were famed for being warriors of the Light, capable of slaying many, many foes. Retribution Paladins just want to be like the Paladins from the Warcraft Universe that they love, that made them roll Paladin in the first place.
Calgar May 11th 2007 2:52PM
It comes down to a couple of simple facts IMO.
1. There are 9 classes and 3 specs for each, making 27 possible combos. Now, most raids will take at least 2 prot warriors, and 2 of each type of healer, specced healing. So that leaves about 6-10 class/spec combos out in the cold all things considered. Balance, Elemental shaman and paladins are all good, but are often the first to be cut. Non-combat rogues, and non-marksman hunters are rare...etc. My point is, with 3 tanks, 8 healers, that leave around 14 spots for DPS, and given the choice between another rogue/hunter/mage/lock and a paladin, it's not tough.
2. Paladins can heal, REALLY well. The same justification can be made against shadow priests/druids, but ATM most consider paladins to be THE healer to have. Also, most guilds aren't short on dps, they are short healers, and losing one of the best healing classes in the game to moderate DPS is not wise.
3. @3. You can't go factoring the 3% crit into the paladin's DPS unless you factor all the classes buffs into themselves too. Eg. That WF totem that is increasing a pally's dps would be counted for the shaman. Battleshout counted for warriors....etc.
As for the question...what would it take? It would take my guild getting an influx of about 5 more people all hardcore dedicated to healing, and the loss of an equal number of DPS classes. It would also take the paladin proving he can do good DPS and maintain is for a decent amount of time too.
I think a SINGLE ret pally would be excellent for a raid...there's just no room in a 25 man to squeeze them in in my opinion. 40 mans is where they would shine ironically with their raid wide crit buff.
Robert May 11th 2007 3:01PM
It would take a lot.
As a comparison, what it took for feral to become viable in raids:
- Cat form damage made competitive with pure DPS classes.
- Party auras buffed significantly
- Bear form buffed to competitive, or even superior, tanking ability versus warriors in certain situations (hateful strike I'm looking at you!).
- Sweeping itemization changes allowing druids to OT and DPS with the same gear.
- Tranquility buffed to be an extremely strong emergency AoE heal.
- Innervate becoming baseline.
This created a useful niche for feral: a tank/DPS hybrid that is a better choice than stacking prot warrs, yet doesn't displace the MT. What would paladins need?
- Ret damage becoming competitive with pure DPS classes.
- Ret-specific auras and judgments buffed significantly.
- Ability to raid tank (or heal) with a ret spec.
- Itemization and game mechanics changes allowing a ret paladin to switch roles between tanking, healing, and DPS in the same fight, in the same gear.
- LoH becoming a more useful emergency heal.
- Possibly BoK becoming baseline.
I don't see it happening, at all. Unfortunately, unlike druids, Blizzard hasn't realized that paladins and shaman need a niche specifically designed for hybrids, one where it is possible to play two roles at one time in the same fight.
Frankly were I a paladin right now I'd reroll if I didn't want to heal any more. Oh wait.. haha, I already did.
Nick May 11th 2007 3:02PM
Two things should be done.
Take away plate for ret, and only let them wear mail.
Give them more sustained DPS.
superbeef May 11th 2007 3:08PM
@10 except for your not Arthas or Uther. You're a basically a bum off the street who somehow ended up at an abbey, possibly through drugs/beer, and then started telling everyone "Hey! I can wear plate, hael (misspelled for hilarity), and DPS!".
No. No you can't. You want to be like Arthas? Fat chance.
Metaphyzxx May 11th 2007 3:15PM
Make them group dependant for effect. THey can cast seals and judgements; let those seals and judgements affect the damage. What I mean is, the concept of "summary judgement"... a few seconds after being judged (with a cooldown like priests weakened soul), additional hits yeild additional damage/buffs/debuffs. THey judge, and anyone that hits them melee in the next 15 seconds gets a Mana HOT, or any heal it receives in the next 2 minutes causes the healer to be stunned. Heck, they're supposed to be holy warriors, show that the light is 'down' with what they're doing.
Maedhras May 11th 2007 3:15PM
Calgar, that was exactly my point, you can't judge a person's utility with DPS meters. There are countless factors that interfere with the exactitude of DPS meters, and a raid should be evaluated as a whole, not as a collection of individual players. Maybe a Ret Pally is just what your raid needed, maybe the moonkin simply gets his class right and is much more useful then your warlock.
My point is: stop asking for things to be handed to you. Great players didn't get there by being buffed, they did it by finding how to play their current class well, and adapt with the changes. I can name at least 1 amazing boomkin, 1 incredible tankadin, 1 unparalleled full holy priest, and the list goes on with class/specs that everyone laughs at, yet that become much more useful to the raid then cookie-cutters thanks to inventive, ressourceful players who just understood what this underdog spec was all about.
Rabbid May 11th 2007 3:17PM
Aye, I play a holy paladin. But that has nothing to do with it. If you want to raid, you respec to a RAIDING SPEC. If your guild already has it all on farm, and it's just a weekly grind for gear, then maybe they would let you pick whatever spec you like as long as they have their veterans in the raid to fuel the progress.
Sure, you can say "that's not my playstyle", then your playstyle != raiding. Sorry. Ret is great for PVP and there are lots of nice purples for you there aswell. QQQQQQQQQQQQQ
Sylvina May 11th 2007 3:24PM
Oh boy... a topic I'm familiar with. I've had a lot of issues with this, and I say throw DPS out the window, or atleast remove that as the primary focus of the retribution paladin. I want awesome melee based procs and abilities, I want to have awesome debuffs that I apply, whether DoTs or whatever that come from me swinging my weapon in melee range. I don't care if I'm being out DPSed by a mage's wand, what matters is that I'm actively supporting my team.
Blizzard themselves have stated that the Paladins are going into a direction that they never planned for. I think they're unsure of how to massively change the paladin, and if they make changes, is it just going to be a complete reversal of the Holy Paladins and others whom have become accustomed to their role screaming "OMG! I'M AT THE BOTTOM OF THE HEALING METERS NOW!".
If you want to make retribution a viable slot in your raid, it won't be for DPS but it will be for the support and auras, maybe if Paladins had more 'melee' abilities they'd be great, but... all they have is Crusader Strike, warriors get executes, cleave, heroic strike, etc. etc. and yet this melee hybrid class called Paladin has the auto-attack, and a skill he can spec into from Retribution.
If you're interested on reading more about Paladin releated subjects, check out my blog @ Seal of Blood, as long as you can handle a blood elf talking about Paladins.
Sylvina May 11th 2007 3:24PM
http://sealofblood.scvs4hire.com
::points to his above comment:: Whoops, forgot to link it.
RogueJedi86 May 11th 2007 3:33PM
@#14/superbeef:
But if they're basically more heroic versions of player Paladins, then why aren't they beefed-up versions of Paladins, with them basically being healbots*1000?
When it comes down to it, I'd say that Blizzard just messed up their implementation of Paladin, going so far as to completely contradict the portrayal of Paladins in all previous Warcraft games. At the least, they should make Ret into a Shadowpriest-type deal, with healing-through-dps.
This blog post with a forum excerpt fits what I'd like out of Paladin:
http://paladinsucks.blogspot.com/2007/04/what-paladin-class-should-have-been.html
In particular, this suggested ability:
Righteous Strike
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An instant strike that deals 50% weapon damage and restores 300% weapon damage in health to nearby party members. Also reduces threat.
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Something like that could help make DPS-adins more viable, while also helping the group, and yet not completely making Healadin useless.
And I do play Paladin, being that I only have one character, and it's been Paladin since day 1, Ret since 39/40.