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All of the latest Mists of Pandaria newsWhat would it take for ret pallies to raid?
by Elizabeth Wachowski 
May 11th 2007 at 2:05PM
Retribution pallies have a pretty bad reputation among a lot of raiding guilds. They're widely believed to have inferior DPS and low utility. And even as feral druids, prot pallies and shadow priests have become accepted in non-healing roles, ret pallies have been left out in the cold. Megas of Hakkar is frustrated with this situation, and asks the forums: What class changes would it take for a ret pally to get a raid spot in your guild? A healing factor like shadow priests have? Some form of group mana regen? The group buffs of ret pallies include a small healing-received (DPS in the next patch) aura and a judgement that can increase crit chance on a target by 3 percent.
Most of the respondees noted that they couldn't think of anything that would cause them to give a ret paladin a DPS raid slot. While there's no real hard numbers on ret paladin DPS, a lot of the raid leaders have had very bad experiences with pallies at the bottom of the DPS meters, and in the current bleeding-edge 25-mans, you can't really have inadequate DPS. There's a lot of talk about how to make ret viable in the paladin forums, but a lot of holy and prot pallies think ret is a lost cause, and it gets pretty heated in there.
I don't personally have enough experience with ret pallies in a raid environment to judge their DPS. My own pally went prot at 45 and never looked back. But I do think that people who rolled pallies to DPS in PVE may want to rejudge their choice. Paladins are possibly the best single-target healing class in the game, and make respectable tanks for most instances and superior tanks for multiple mobs. One class can't be the best at everything, and in difficult raids, raid leaders are going to min/max to get the best DPSers/healers/tanks there are. I'm content for paladins to be tanking/healing hybrids.
What do you think about ret pallies? Underutilized DPS resource, or waste of a raid spot?
Filed under: Paladin, Analysis / Opinion, Raiding
Reader Comments (Page 2 of 3)
Ecko__18 May 11th 2007 3:33PM
A lot of these people are the same holy pallys that were looking for sympathy when the holy nerfs were announced. Especially people who make the comments like "QQQQQQQQQQQQ". The ret community is not asking to be on the top of the dps charts or anything like that. If you look around the forums, you will notice most of the stuff ret pallys are asking for is along the lines of more utility. We need something to seperate us out, add utility to those around us, and put out a little dps on our own.
And so people dont think im just talking out my a$$ here, Im the only Eckozealot on any server, I also run a Latros with the Spellpower netherwing sheild, and my heal gear is at +1000 for now untill I get my rep up. 20/0/41
Askia May 11th 2007 7:43PM
I would be interested to know if any other class has been explicitly told by Blizz that one of their talent trees is ONLY for soloing and PVP, because that's what Kalgan told the Pally forum about the retribution tree. My response to that was to take back my $15/month and say thanks for the memories.
Flit May 11th 2007 3:35PM
STFU and roll a DPS class already. Pallies are dps any more than Warriors are healers. Get over it and stop QQing yourself to death.
Kire May 11th 2007 3:43PM
I used to be a Ret pally until I reached the Outlands and was told by a high level friend that Ret Pallies are not sought after. Which is true. As a Ret pally I thought my DPS was descent however not the best in the game obviously. However I dont think they should really be ditched without some consideration. I found out by grouping with others, while I was still Ret spec, that I fit in best playing a multifuntion role. As an OT (1st or 2nd OT spot), back up heal to priests, and a protector of the "Backline" (the ranged DPSers and healers). Because we can still use Righteous Defense to draw up to 3 enemies off of someone and we can deal enough damage to keep them off and maybe even eliminate them in time to resume our duties. I think poor Ret pallies have left a lot of bad tastes in everyones mouth.
Ichigo May 11th 2007 3:44PM
Senseless debates such as these, added to the fact that Blizzard has no clue how to properly deal with their hybrid classes, is why my Paladin is sitting in the AH in Org as my new bank while I level up my Warlock.
RogueJedi86 May 11th 2007 3:51PM
"22. STFU and roll a DPS class already. Pallies are dps any more than Warriors are healers. Get over it and stop QQing yourself to death."
Except the Lore has shown in the previous Warcraft games that Paladins were DPS. They never showed Warriors being Healers, so unlike your comparison, Paladins doing DPS is a valid expectation.
And I guess it's good news, but one of the EU Devs has seen a list of Ret Paladin concerns:
http://blue.cardplace.com/newcache/en/285172648.htm
Is this a sign of future changes?
Argent May 11th 2007 4:09PM
if you gear exceptionally well, ret paladins can pretty much hold their own against enhancement shaman in a 25-man raid environment.
i think what kinda kills them is they lack a lot of small scale utility in 5 and 10 man. f.e. a mage, warlock and rogue all have CC abilities. a ret paladin does not. even if their dps was all equal, who would take the non-CC class?
also the people who play paladin and contionously attack one antoher based on spec really do nothing to improve the class. having ret paladins basically go around and say 'ha ha u got nerfed' to holy paladins does not make the *CLASS* better.
having holy paladins belittle people for wanting to play ret does not help the class either.
druids, shaman and priest have functional dps tree options as well as functional healing options (ok, shaman less so -- but still, one would take an enhance shammy over a ret pally into a raid, no?), it wouldn't be too much to ask to kinda extend that just a little.
though i do think blizz is kinda nudging intot he right direction with some of their recent changes. giving ret paladins abilities that amp up raid damage imo could be a very useful tool.
Guernia May 11th 2007 4:17PM
A couple of random points in no particular order.
Blizzard have already stated that some specs for some classes just aren't for raiding, and that's Working as Intended. (See Tseric on Shamans for a recent example).
Blizzard have also stated paladins aren't supposed to be strong at DPS.
Blue just got through poking the paladin community with a stick by posting paladins in PvP are more useful when they're holy spec.
That ret puts out more DPS is up for debate. More burst DPS, yes. But prot will always put out more sustained DPS due to it's AoE/dmg reflection nature plus it's good for tanking. Holy puts out decent DPS in the short term, plus ups survivability with excellent mana efficient healing.
I wouldn't say Ret is broken, but it doesn't bring any utility to a group that can't be gotten more easily through some other class/means.
ridestowe May 11th 2007 4:21PM
lest we forget the abandonment of the enhancement shaman at 70?
MartinC May 11th 2007 5:52PM
Pallies can't DPS (on par with primary DPS classes). It quite simple. The option is there if you want to solo grind, but I would *never* give a Palladin a DPS slot in an instance.
There's a reason we call them Retnoobs.
twh May 11th 2007 9:04PM
Is it too much to ask for all three trees to be viable in all areas of the game for all classes?
Argent May 11th 2007 9:13PM
'retnoob' is more of a state of mind than a state of being. anyone who actually knows about the game ought to know that by now.
as for ret dps:
a skillful and well geared ret paladin can dps quite well when compared to equally geared melee dps classes. i've seen it done before and it shouldn't be terribly big surprise to anyone who has actually played with these hunted-to-extinction type players.
i don't really think the game benefits from having extreme pigeonholing like this because it pretty much reduces a players liberty to enjoy himself within the game environment. if someone is wanting to play ret, willing to do what it takes and whatnot, why is it that the game basically says 'you're limited to solo'ing and not much else'?
and why even have ret options for the tier 4-6 and pvp gear?
Blaise May 12th 2007 12:53AM
Heres my 2cents. This all comes from a basic misconception about WoW raiding. People still think it is like leveling, an individual game with a team aspect. You spend most of your time grinding or questing alone then occasionally you get a group together and beat on stuff together. Ret is great for this. Then you get to the endgame and they still want to be the way they were for leveling. However in the endgame, especially raiding, it becomes a team game with an individual aspect. What your character needs to advance is replaced with what the raid needs, and more often than not that is healers and tanks not dps. People who want to still be dps, kind of remind me of the whiney kid in little league who HAD to play first base. He was always way too short to play first base, and had terrific speed and was good with fly balls, but he wants to play first base because its "exciting" and the outfield is "boring". Also as far as I am concerned respec costs are low enough that people being "anti ret" is kind of dumb. Telling you to go spend maximum 50g so everyone else can get healed is NOT that bad. If they were saying "pallys suck, go roll a shaman" that would be one thing hours of grinding constitutes you BEING your class so to speak, but "hey we have too many dps, not enough healers could you heal please?" isn't a big deal for anyone who wants to raid, its just switching roles, you ARE NOT your spec.
Two more things to cap my rant: the reason people say "retnoob" is because of the sad fact that 95% of the gankers, ninjas, noobs, and just general toolbags out of paladins are ret (the rest got found out and went holy, they still dps the same way just not as well:). Also to say "in the lore paladins dpsed, so we should dps in raids." is ridiculous. I actually read "war of the ancients" and the Priestesses of Elune war platemail and kicked ass with swords. So should priests be getting plate in an upcoming patch?
Also that is the real story of how Arthas killed his dad (if you listen hard in the undercity). Dad was all like "Look we got a bunch of rogues and huntards when we joined with the Elves, mind respeccing Holy for the raid this weekend?" and the rest is history...
Ballad May 12th 2007 1:00AM
I love all the posts saying that if Retribution Paladin's were to get comparable DPS they take away plate. That's like saying because Feral Druids can have comparable damage, we take away Bear.
The mere fact that a player wants to be able to dish out some damage and contribute in away othe than healing/tanking with their character (which they love and have played with for 70 levels) is exactly the same plight that our Druid friends went through. Lo and Behold, they are quite good and fulfilling almost any role (not that they weren't already). Also note, a like a Druid, we cannot Tank and Heal and DPS all at the same time.
If we were to complain about Ret, why not the Shadow tree for Priests? Surely THE healer does not need a damage tree. And what of Shamans? Why does and offensive hybrid need any healing? Your arguments are all moot, if one class can do it (even if they are an off-spec) why can't we?
twh May 12th 2007 1:40AM
Furthermore, it astounds me at the sheer ignorance of not only the person writing this article, sorry Liz.
In the pally forums, the Holy paladins, a significant portion consisting of priest rerolls (get em out!), are hell bent on shouting down both Prot and Ret pallies because they want to do more than just heal. As a result, there's a lot of hostility between Ret/Prot and Holy.
Another is that there are more paladins asking for more utility than actual DPS in a raid setting. That's where you, the author, and the majority of the people err. Granted there are a few that believe in paladins doing DPS comparable to DPS classes, but the majority of them just want to be up front hitting stuff. Is that so wrong?
And again, you say paladins want to be the best at everything. WE DON'T! We just want to be useful for whatever we spec for! That is not wrong to think. If we want to spec for damage, ideally, we should spec retribution and have the utility to deal damage, NOT DPS! How hard is that to grasp? If we want to tank, at the expense of our healing and damage, we spec to tank and tank on par with warriors and druids. And, as much as I hate to admit it, we can heal very well, but we shouldn't be, considering we're a melee class first.
Lastly, you may be content with us just healing and tanking, but those of us who wanted to actually fight and stand a fighting chance want more than that.
A poster in the thread noted that the reason why so many people shout down Ret pallies is because they want to keep pallies healing and ONLY healing. As tin-foil-hattish as that sounds, it's not impossible.
Vaelin May 12th 2007 11:20PM
Blizzard failed at the Paladin. You spend 69 levels beating on things with a melee playstyle, and most of your endgame lifetime as a caster with a small toolbox. Paladin tanking is redundant and unnecessary, since Warriors and Druids can fill the role just fine (and lack the problems like blocking crushing blows and/or lower base HP).
Ret Paladins don't all necessarily want to do more DPS. They just want to play endgame with the same playstyle they leveled up with, and be wanted for it. The Paladin should be a melee class all-around (like it was originally promoted). The changes required to accomplish this would be drastic and fundamental, which is exactly why it won't happen.
Most of the Paladins who lament what the class has become, if they haven't already quit or rerolled, will be leaving for Warhammer Online - a game that seems to have gotten it right from the beginning.
http://www.warhammeronline.com/english/gameInfo/armiesofWAR/Empire/Careers/warriorpriest.php
Thallid May 13th 2007 2:33AM
@31: Exactly. I mean, what's the point of putting a talent tree if no one is going to use it? In addition to the pally ret tree, the priest's holy tree are severely lacking in talents that are actually worth putting into.
And I don't see how the whole deal of Holy Pallies berating Prot/Ret Pallies even started in the first place. (I would assume that people would QQ more about other classes instead of QQing about THEIR OWN class.)
Cosmina May 13th 2007 11:06AM
I think the problem is still spell damage. Admittedly i made a huge mistake and rerolled Shaman, but i did a fair bit of PvE Ret DPS back in the day.
I geared up with Crit, Strength, and a little +hit. My damage was very nice - and this is before the PvP patch came out, gave us Crusader Strike, and all the free epics. I've no dount my DPS would've been very nice then if i'd not gone Protection.
Sure it's been nerfed back, but i still think it's viable and just not utilised well enough.
I think the DPS can be okay, not great, possibly not even decent, but ok, if geared properly. You're there for two things as a Ret Paladin
1) DPS.
2) Judgements.
You could switch the order, but they're as important as eachother. You want to deal some damage and help everyone out who is beating in the mob.
As an Enhancement Shaman i know i'd absolutely kill to have a permanent JoWisdom up on a boss. Ditto Improved JotCrusader, and i guess JoLight would be the other natural choice for raiding.
Back in the day i was told the difference between a good Retribution Paladin and a bad one was what judgement, if any, he put up. I'd always put up the best one possible for the group, and mix it up where required. Now that we can stick up to three up at once and have one person refreshing them the whole time, i have no idea know why we don't.
Maybe with the incoming nerf to Holy we might get a few more Ret Pallies running around, and the Shaman will all go back to Restoration, so people can try it out more. Here's hoping.
aaron May 15th 2007 12:43PM
I have also been thinking about this. Some kind of shadowpriest'ish skills would be nice. Go the other way though, not healing or mana regen. Damage absorbing buffs. Ret pallie grouped with a tank, proc'ing party damage absorbtion buffs while dpsing. Reducing the damage taken on the tank, providing a devo aura and keeping light up.
Anroth May 15th 2007 5:44AM
whoa...
pallies are sounding a lot like druids pre-bc...
i hear you brothers, it´s very hard to be pigeonholed. :(