Officers' Quarters: Surviving Karazhan
Every Monday Scott Andrews contributes Officers' Quarters, a column about the ins and outs of guild leadership.
Last week was an exciting week for me with the premier of my new column. I've had a week's worth of questions piling up, so let's look at one of them today.
I was wondering what you guys do to address straight-up performance problems. We've been successfully raiding Karazhan for about a month now, but when we swap in other warriors/healers we always seem to have performance problems. We've had sit downs and group meetings. We've discussed things in open guild chat and privately with the ones we're having problems with. Just seems like nothing will effectively get through to them. I've never played WoW with a group of people that just don't seem to care about how well they do. They don't seem too interested in progressing their gear or play experience outside of Karazhan. They're not really breaking any guild rules, they're online during raid times, they try to participate, but I hate to decide on raid spots between a player who has rock solid attendance/performance versus a player with solid attendance but poor performance. Any thoughts would be appreciated.
Thank you in advance,
Ty from Hellscream
Thanks for writing, Ty. Kara is a zone that has created a lot of problems for guilds who are used to bringing 20 or 40 players on raid nights. Suddenly officers have been confronted with the reality of exactly what each player can contribute in a small but challenging raid. As we make judgments for who gets to go, who's on which team, and so on, friction is inevitable. Guilds have been undone by Karazhan -- don't let it happen to you!
It sounds like Ty's guild has two types of players: Those who want to excel and rapidly move on to other content, and those who are happy to work their way through Kara at their own pace. Many guilds who aren't exclusively "hardcore" raiding guilds have to deal with this mix of personalities.
There are two ways you can handle this. First, you could put together a team of the most talented and motivated players your guild has. Find a night or two every week that works for all or most of those players. Then set out to learn, clear, and farm the entire instance. Once your "Dream Team" has mastered the instance and obtained the gear to make up for a few less talented players, they could open up the runs to others and help them to learn the encounters one step at a time. I firmly believe that most WoW players are eventually capable of handling any encounter they have the gear and consumables to manage, as long as they clearly understand what their job is during the fight. It just takes some people longer to learn the rhythm of the encounter and to avoid the costly errors that cause a wipe.
The key is to explain to your members exactly what the plan is for Kara. If you go for this first option, many of the players who aren't invited will become resentful unless they know that it will be their turn soon. If you're afraid some people still aren't going to like sitting on the sidelines, it may be necessary for you to set objective standards for this team. Set minimums like AP or spell damage for DPS classes, defense and stamina for tanks, etc. Don't create a Catch-22 by setting the minimums so unreasonably high that they can't be reached outside Kara. Also, make it clear that expensive enchants and consumables aren't optional for participation on this team. If a player thinks they have what it takes to contribute, they'll go out and get what they need -- and now by default they're more motivated than they were before. Hopefully that will carry over to their raid performance.
Some of your best players may not want to go back to Kara once they have everything they need. In this case, it's your job to remind them that moving on to Serpentshrine Cavern and beyond won't be possible unless they help to gear up more than just the original 10-man team.
If you have enough members to do so, your second option would be to form two teams: one team for your highly motivated individuals, and one for your more laid-back players. Typically those in the first category are harder on themselves and each other and can't stand to fail, whereas those in the latter group will tend to be more forgiving when people make mistakes. It's often this clash of perspectives that leads to arguments in raids. With this option, your motivated members won't be held back or frustrated by the others (at least in Kara). And those on the other team might find more motivation to play well if they aren't getting carried through encounters by better players.
Again, it's important to communicate how and why the teams have been chosen. Some of the players who aren't very good will still probably want to be on the highly motivated team. That's where your objective standards come in. At some point if one team is geared up as much as they can be, you might decide to mix the two teams together so that gear is put to good use and items aren't getting sharded left and right.
However, the bottom line is this: some people just aren't cut out for places like Kara. Overall, it's not an unreasonably difficult dungeon. However, encounters like Curator require a certain minimum overall dps, and Aran is notoriously unforgiving of carelessness. You might want to reevaluate in what direction you'd like the guild to be headed. Is it worth keeping players around that won't spend the time to learn how to optimize their class performance or prepare themselves properly for a raid, even after discussing it with the officers? Once you move beyond Kara, you're going to need 30-35 players you can count on. So if your plan is to progress beyond this 10-man raid, you need to either mold the players you have into solid raiders or find others who already are.
On the other hand, is it worth paying the price of progression if it means losing players that you enjoy having in the guild?
Ultimately, Karazhan is a place that forces you to decide what your guild is all about.
To my readers, how has your guild dealt with this instance? Are you raiding Karazhan, or is Karazhan raiding you?
Send Scott your guild-related questions, conundrums, ideas, and suggestions at scott.andrews@weblogsinc.com. You may find your question the subject of next week's Officers' Quarters!
Filed under: Guilds, Raiding, Officers' Quarters (Guild Leadership)






Reader Comments (Page 1 of 1)
Matt May 14th 2007 11:36AM
I never thought I could be a raider because I'm 30, have a job, wife, etc. However, now that my guild has become more serious about raiding, it's opening up a whole new world to me. I'm at 69 and a lot of the top players in my guild are now actively helping me run the instances I want to get geared and get my flying mount. They want me ready to run Kara with them.
This is really the first time I've been actively involved in the guild and I love it. I don't know if I'll be able to commit to more than one (maybe 2) nights to RAID but I want to now. It has also motivated me to stop playing alts and focus on my main. I had a level 70 guildie send me a superior shield with the request that I focus on getting to 70 and gearing up for Kara. I have to say this "shift" in thinking has really increased my enjoyment of the game.
jess May 14th 2007 11:42AM
My guild is having a problem trying to work a schedule where we can have multiple teams doing it. We have a pretty large pool of people who are keyed and have done a lot of the encounters but it's hard to get a good schedule going and a lot of people get saved to a certain instance so they get stuck in a certain group.
Seper May 14th 2007 11:43AM
Our guild is super casual. We play with first timers (to kara) alot. We even 9manned opera. Our group make up is usually the worst. Min. 4healers a run >.<
But we pull through. Not everyone is geared up like a hardcore person would be. But it just means we have to change our strats.
After every wipe we take a minute or two to reevaluate our strats. People learn.
ALSO
I reccomend letting the lower lvl members of your guild listen in on your kara runs. It works for our guild members. That way they know a bit on how the encounter goes. When we wipe and discuss new strategies or reasons why we wiped. They learn from that as well.
Nice article.
yepyep May 14th 2007 11:50AM
Our guild has 2 active kara groups with a 3rd in the works. Group 1 has kara on farm, Group 2 is on shade. We are curently looking for a few good healers for our kara raids, we are on Emerald dream - horde.
Rich May 14th 2007 11:52AM
I would have added another thing, get a realistic feeling for where all of your guildies (individually and as a group) end-game plans are. We all know that for raiding guilds that goal is Hyjal. But you have to be realistic also, some people just either don't have the skill, time or drive to progress that far. Things change also, one of your best players may need to cut back for whatever reason. You can't necessarily kick them.
That's were Kara comes in. For the players that can't or won't progress all the way to Hyjal, you can use them as the well geared players that know the instance to help gear the new players and alts. This way, the new characters can be ready to help with out putting a dent into the 25 man raid times.
Kara needs to be looked at as a stepping stone and not a bottle neck.
Fondren May 14th 2007 1:24PM
We've had good luck recruiting server transfers who prefer a late raiding time (9pm pacific time). Suggest you find something unique about your guild that would attract transfers and then expand your recruiting efforts beyond your server.
Remember - the bigger your pool of candidates the higher you can set your standards.
Fondren - The Dream Team - Blade's Edge
cggrubb May 14th 2007 4:07PM
Along with the dps or defense requirements, provide any gear lagging players to wow-loot.com and use the gear guide for their class to find out where to get geared up.
Chad May 14th 2007 1:42PM
Very good article. This is kind of ironic because my guild just imploded over the weekend because of Kara.
What I don't think people understand is that getting keyed for Kara is different than being prepared for Kara. Having a prerequisite minimum AP/Spell Damage/Armor Bonus/Whatever is a great idea. And I think it is overlooked by the majority of the people that want to be in Karazhan.
I'd love to find a website that does a per class gear recommendations for the Karazhan and higher raids.
Astros May 14th 2007 2:01PM
My guild is too casual to be hardcore and too hardcore to be casual; but, we have 2 teams in Kara and we have tried a number of different team combinations moving/swaping people to different groups every week. Since we have more than 10 active/skilled players, making a dedicated "varsity" squad becomes quite a problem as a few of the people get moved down to "JV" and progression comes to a screaching hault.
So now, we try to divide up our most skilled/experienced players so that both teams can have a good chance at clearing.
Currently both teams are downing Prince each week, but the problems come when a "non-experienced, no skilled" player wants to join in on the epic looting.
There is always that one guy who is on everyday begging for invites but no one has the balls to tell him, "NO! You suck, gtfo!" These types of players are the only ones slowing us down because they don't even realise they can't play their class well and hurting the raid progression.
If Kara has taught me one thing it is showing me who can play their class well and who can not. Who gots the skills to pay the bills. With 10 man raids, there is no room for anyone to "piggyback" for free loot, and it becomes really obvious who the bad players are very fast.
Renagade242 May 14th 2007 2:01PM
This post really made me stop and consider whether I am ready for Kara. I've been in the process of gearing up (still need 23 Durn/BM runs for KoT exalted and that nice dagger), but I was thinking I could be ready for at least the first few encounters.
After some extensive searching online, I came up with the following minimums for DPS melee classes:
6500 HP
1100-1200 AP
180+ Hit rating
>24% crit
All of this should be pre-buff, with some of the higher encounters requiring much more, this is a good starting point, however.
I found the main place I am lacking is my stamina, I focused a bit too much on the AP/damage side of things.
I know this is a little OT, but this is where this post took me. I've already been in one guild that split over Kara drama, and made a server transfer as a result of this.
GL everyone who has yet to brave this haunted mansion, and GL to everyone working past it!
Ana May 14th 2007 2:10PM
We're looking at Karazhan as a blessing in disguise. Many, many guilds on my server ended up fragmenting into the "hardcore" and "casual" teams. I use those terms in quotes because a lot of times, the "casuals" are more hindered by a lack of knowledge than lack of concern. Many of my guildies - older, married, with kids and without - don't realize that it's possible to do more with your character than fill in your talent spec and press buttons.
Linking wow-loot in our forums has motivated many of them to start looking for new ways to improve their characters. It takes patience though. Telling one of my 'locks "you need to up your DPS" does nothing except get him or her upset. Reading up on 'locks, and starting a discussion about what pet to have out when, not only gets results but reinforces the fact that we really do want them to do well. That's what we're here for.
Karazhan is a blessing because it forced us to have those conversations, and to really embrace the teaching aspect of running a guild. And it's so worth it when see our guys wtfpwning these instances and having a grand old time doing it. ;)
blackangely2k May 14th 2007 4:00PM
My guild is currently sporting two teams, and both are on the Shade. We play in two different time slots, and have a "prime-time" and "late-night" group. This time segregation is for convenience, and eases the elementary schoolyard approach which always alienates the people who don't get picked.
My experience as a guild and raid leader has been that if you push players to do better, they inevitably respond by doing so. Not all do so at the same pace, so it is important to coach and identify those players that need extra help. The time spent with these members one-on-one will be repaid handily when they begin contributing.
So this suggests a third option, unmentioned by the author: go at the pace your guild is capable of without segregating them based on skill. As gear improves and members' skill increases, Karazhan will go down and the way to 25-man content will be opened.
The irony is that if a guild does as the author suggests, then what they have successfully done is split their guild into cliques, ready-made to splinter off and destroy the guild in the process. So DO NOT follow his advice! If you are a guild leader looking to preserve your guild whole-cloth, you have to avoid this temptation. Nothing will destroy your guild faster than anointing a special Elite Squad. What must be done is to prepare people for the fact that not everyone will be in the Black Temple in July. Remember: less than 10% of players ever saw a BWL boss go down. Just because you aren't scoring world or server firsts does not mean your guild is pointless, what matters is that everyone truly enjoys being part of what the guild accomplishes.
dave May 14th 2007 5:28PM
Our guild is too small to do Kara, but we'd like to. We're fairly competent at PvE and PvP and have middle of the road gear and are working up to getting keyed - just have to finish the marsh I think. That said, we're kinda bummed that we may never run Kara as we can field a good 5-man team, but don't really have enough friends in Azeroth that are decent raiders. Has anyone out there had success with a "split guild" run? Say 5 each from 2 different guilds?
John May 14th 2007 5:48PM
I think many raiders never really geared for 40-man back in the past.
The moment they hit 60, they were dragged to MC. Some went through BWL without even getting an Onyxia key.
Jumped from green gear to epic tier 2 gear. Since the tier 2 was probably going to be disenchanted anyway.
---
Come expansion & Kara, they get keyed and expects instant epics. But they aren't geared for it. They are nowhere near the reputation needed to run any heroics or are even mostly in greens.
Then the group has a hard time in Kara because performance (gear related) is just bad.
Lokse May 14th 2007 7:44PM
Here's a cut-paste from a post which I made to my (ex) guild forums somewhat recently, and I thought that it might make a potentially interesting read for someone, or become an expanded topic from the article author on this site in the future.. I hope someone enjoys this read.
My original post was as a response to a large number of people atetmpting tonominate "Class Leads" for the beginning raid guild wihch I had joined on a somewhat young and low population server. As most of the people who were arguing over this had obviously never been an officer or understood what the position might entail, I said this:
-----------------------------------------
This is my "formal petition" to take a second look at the necessity of having "Class Leads" at all, because I've been seeing lots of formal petitions in this area lately:
------
1 - The server population is low enough that few classes in-guild are having an unchecked influx of players. Combined with a respectable number of people who are still "cming into their own" getting keyed to the higher-end content, and levelling to 70.
2- The level of content we are currently workin on does not call for experts on specific classes, for someone to organize each particular class along specific strategic "raid" lines, or for a single entity to keep track of all other members of their particular class. We don't even know the content yet, why establish "experts" in it so early?
3 - Certain classes in-guild do not even have TWO people I can name who are consistant, knowledgeable players for that class. Who's our best paladin? Expert on rogue DPS in a PvE raid setting? Shit, we don't even have two HUNTERS at 70, who play regularly. I may be wrong, but how many people could name our 70 hunters from memory? Every guild I've ever been in that required class leads, had at least 4 to 10 players of every class, that were regular, contributing players.
4 - Due to fundamental shifts in how endgame content is run, there is not necessarily a need to have a specific officer to wrangle up the players of their own respective class; when you do not have 4-7 players of a single class running in the same group - at the same time - you really do not need someone micromanaging within a 5 or 10-man group. When this happens, people get overanxious and tend to flare their tempers pretty quickly.
5 - We haven't been running endgame as a guild long enough to really recognize the most effective players in each particular class. Is it truly a good idea to give Class Lead position out to a person, simply because they are/were the only representative of their class in the lead-up to endgame which the guild is going through? Our best rogue might be hanging out pvping at level 39, our best shaman might have been busy with school last semester and be able to raid 24/7 during the Spring, etc..
Class Lead is not a position which can be stepped away from gracefully, most of the time. Making a bad choice now or setting a precedent of HAVING class leads, then later realizing they are completely unnecessary, or causing internal strife, has the potential to cause all kinds of drama.
I have previously been in the position of having my authority and skill level as a Class Lead called to question due to internal guild politics (A powerful officer was working to insinuate his IRL friends into key positions in a literal power-grab within the guild, in the few days before they literally broke away from the guild in a mass-gquit exodus, because this specific person wanted to run a guild instead of be a powerful officer in one) and was quite dismayed to log in one day and see that anotehr player whom I had a low opinion of, was suddenly promoted to having the same rank and position as I had. I was not demoted, and redundancy is generally a good thing, but it both caused me to second-guess my own value and abilities, as well as giving the rest of those players not "in the know" about internal politics, reason to believe that I had lost my position because I was somehow unfit to do my job!
I really would not want to have any members of tihs guild go through a similar processas I went through. It's similar to being dumped without an explanation, including all the neuroticism which stems from going through that process!
-----------------------
I don't want to be a stormcrow about this, and i'm not insinuating in any way that the server is dead, the guild is underpopulated, or that our players suck, etc etc. However. you just don't want to lay down carpet before the windows and ceiling are on your house!
citrik May 14th 2007 8:10PM
Thanks cggrubb for the posting about www.wow-loot.com, that 's a great resource!
Robert May 14th 2007 9:18PM
Segregating Karazhan groups by player skill is a fast way to annihilate your guild.
The good group will be done farming it by the time the bad group kills Aran. The players in the bad group will become frustrated as they are left behind, and each of them will think they're stuck in the bad group and deserve to be in the good group. The players in the good group will be frustrated at the inability of the bad group to down seemingly easy content, and "hurry up so we can start Gruul". This is how Karazhan ruins guilds.
A better approach is to assign players so that each team has an equal chance to progress.
Bill May 29th 2007 12:26PM
Yeah, this is exactly what's happening in our guild. The GM has segregated the groups based on who the "original, core, A-team" group of raiders are, and the "B-team" players. The B-team feels generally looked down on, even though many are at least as good players as the A-Team. The A-Team feels entitled to be the first to experience new content in the guild, the first to get gear, etc, because they are "better", or have "worked harder", when in reality they have simply been raiding Kara a little longer. They are oblivious to the resentment being generated by this arrangement, and put it into the "not my problem" category. A guild split is on the way for sure. I wish I knew how to tell the GM that this is happening, but the GM is also the raid leader of the A-team, and as long as he is getting what he wants, he doesn't see any problem.