Officers' Quarters: Keeping your hybrids happy

Every Monday Scott Andrews contributes Officers' Quarters, a column about the ins and outs of guild leadership.
This week's question deals with a topic that another recent addition to the WoW Insider team, Jason Lotito, has been covering in his excellent Hybrid Theory column. Of all the classes in Warcraft, I find that the true hybrids -- Druid, Shaman, and Paladin -- can cause the biggest issues when dealing with loot. Sometimes you can really find yourself in the lions' den, and in Warcraft those feral kitties have sharp claws! Here's a common problem:
Hey Scott,
I stumbled upon your column, and I'm happy to see that someone is taking the time to address guild leadership. My original guild started on Everquest, and moved to WoW when it came out. I was an officer/raid leader in that guild for eight years, then they recently split up [. . .]
I decided to pack up and start anew on another server, this time as Horde. A good chunk of players decided to follow me [. . .] So now we've leveled from 1 to 70, [ground] out our Karazhan keys, and blam-o, we're back to raiding again.
We used to use the typical earn DKP/spend DKP system, but I haven't decided to apply it in Karazhan. I figured it's a 10-man zone, and 25-man is the greater goal. So I've done with just rolling 1-100. But the other night, I had a problem that, as Alliance, I didn't have to face before.
The Beastmaw Pauldrons dropped off the "Romeo and Juliet" Opera House encounter, and the DPS shaman rolled vs. the hunter. The hunter sent me tells, very upset about the shaman rolling, mostly because if a shaman healing item drops, it'll likely rot to him, so he gets the best of both worlds. So my question is, how do I go about fairly distributing loot without a DKP system, without insulting people/causing drama?
Thanks,
David
Thanks for writing, David. With the release of the expansion, the issue of hybrids just got a whole lot more complicated for guild leaders now that both factions have all three hybrid classes. My officers and I have definitely struggled in the past with giving out loot when it comes to these classes. Like you, we don't use a DKP system for Karazhan. We didn't use a point system for Zul'Gurub or the Ruins of Ahn'Qiraj either. And let me tell you, we had some explosive arguments about it.
In one particular case when we were relatively new to raiding and epics were a big deal, the Fang of Venoxis dropped. The officer that we call our "Loot Tsar" ruled that for progression purposes it would be best to give the dagger to a mage or warlock for the spell damage bonus. Another officer, who was a shaman, argued that he could use every stat on that dagger and wanted to roll for it. I was very torn on the issue. It's a great dagger for many classes, obviously. In the end, I decided to support the decision of my Loot Tsar. However, the Fang argument got pretty nasty, and it soured the relationship between those two players for a long time.
As a result, we decided we needed to confront the issue of hybrid loot head-on to avoid that kind of unpleasantness in the future. That discussion got pretty heated, but at least now it was confined to the officers' forum on our web site. It's a thorny issue: a hybrid class can theoretically benefit from virtually any item they can equip, whereas specialized classes, like David's hunter, can only use very specific types of gear. The new multiset Tier armor drops have reduced the amount of grief that loot can cause, but there are still plenty of drops that have drama written all over them.
We're not a guild who forces all hybrids to spec healing. So we have had druids and shamans of all specs. (At some point we'll probably have tanking and DPS paladins, too.) What we decided to do in the end was to ask all hybrids to declare a role: healing, tanking, melee DPS, or spell DPS. When loot dropped for that role, they could roll on it alongside the pure classes of that role. But if loot dropped for a different role, they could roll on it only if the players in that other role were passing. That compromise has worked well for us for a long time.
In the case of the Beastmaw Pauldrons, we would clearly let an Enhancement shaman roll on them. But then if, for example, the Dragon-Quake Shoulderguards dropped from the Curator (and for some reason they seem to drop for us EVERY. SINGLE. TIME.), we'd let a Holy paladin roll on them over the shaman.
Some of your members who play pure classes are never going to be happy losing a roll to a hybrid. But I think it's an easier pill to swallow if your hybrids all have clear, predefined roles to fill. And now with Blizzard's somewhat controversial Armory feature, they can go look someone up if they have any doubts about a player's spec.
Loot in Kara is a little bit more difficult because yes, that Enhancement shaman in Dave's guild is probably going to get some spell damage and/or healing gear from the zone now and then. But honestly, if your hunter or any member begrudges a hybrid class some off-spec gear that's going to be sharded otherwise, that person needs to think about how well raids would go without all the great buffs the hybrid classes provide. Not every hybrid wants to heal 24-7, and if you force players to do something they don't enjoy, you're going to lose those players to other guilds. A guild needs hybrids to survive, so let them fill the roles they want to fill. It's another issue entirely if your guild is short on healers. At some point you have to face reality and ask your hybrids if they would consider healing for the good of the guild. But if you're all set on healing, and your hybrids can keep up with the pure classes while providing their awesome buffs and utility at the same time, everybody wins -- and your hybrids will thank you for it!
Send Scott your guild-related questions, conundrums, ideas, and suggestions at scott.andrews@weblogsinc.com. You may find your question the subject of next week's Officers' Quarters!
Filed under: Officers' Quarters (Guild Leadership)






Reader Comments (Page 1 of 1)
WatcherZero May 28th 2007 6:34PM
Way we handle it, We have every hybrid declare their spec, their expected to stick to it for conceivable future. We understand that sometimes hybrids are needed to temporarily respec and so we encourage all classes from warriors to priests to the traditional hybrids to work on their off-spec gear. This has actually vastly reduced the number of items we diss. Loot order goes like:
Tank priority>Main spec>Off spec>Trials>PVP>diss
Z May 28th 2007 6:44PM
The way Igenerally handle it is, whatever role you're functioning in that particular raid determines what you're going to get preference for. If the shaman is healing through the raid, he's not going to get preference for DPS mail; that's going to the hunters and enhancement shaman. Same with druids. DPS leather with tons of agility is going to the rogues before the healing druids, but the feral druids (we use 'em) are free to roll.
You can't handle what role hybrids have been before or are going to be down the road. You can, on the other hand, deal with it in the here and now and whatever role they're filling in the raid, it must be working for that loot to have dropped to begin with.
dru May 28th 2007 7:12PM
I'm about to start getting into end-game a little more heavily. And I'm a shaman which means that I've re-specced resto for the good of the guild (we're a small guild, and enh-spec, while more fun for me, means that we don't have our optimal set up). But I'm a much better enhancement shaman, and I'd like to gear up for that. When my guild really starts raiding we're going to need to ally with another small guild, and enhancement is probably my best bet for helping out a full 25 man raid. I've been rolling for shards, and if I lose I pay the cost of the shars and loot the BoP. This might not be possible when purples start dropping. Can I, in good conscience roll on off-spec gear, when it is really going to be my main-spec in the future?
Mats May 28th 2007 7:19PM
The best option is of course, USE DKP, it prevents all these issues.
Second, what has been said here: Hybrids get to roll by what speck they are currently raiding as. The raid does not deck out people in purple so they can go PvP or grind gold for epic mount, they deck them out to better progress in raids.
The good of the many outweigh the good of the one, your raid is the many, the hybrid who wants to DPS is the one. If everyone passes, and the shoulders are on there way to become a Void Crystal, sure he gets it. But if the raid has a option to benefit from putting it on a pure class, that pureclass should always get it first.
Sufferer May 28th 2007 8:51PM
Yes, use DKP, but do yourself a favour, KEEP IT PURE! as in, anyone can bid on anything if they have the DKP to spend.
Reason? it removes the rules complications. Each rule you add (e.g. the following 5 items are reserved for hunters), ends up subject to negotiation, exception, whining and complaining about, etc.
In my old guild, they went from a pure DKP, "spend as you like" system to one where you spent DKP, but all the items were governed by additional rules. Those additional rules in turn led to arguments, and further rules were created, until it was no longer a DKP system, but a system of assignment disguised as DKP. Ultimately, the guild suffered greatly because of it.
So, lesson: if you use DKP, keep it pure.
Pyro May 28th 2007 9:47PM
LOL @ 4&5. DKP in 10 mans. Worst. Idea. Ever. Learn to be happy for your fellow guildies getting geared, whatever the reason. If you lose the roll, deal with it. It's a game. There will be more loot.
Adam May 28th 2007 10:32PM
This is probably one of the issues that contributes to Karazhan being a "guildbreaker" instance. Prior to TBC hitting ZG, etc with short reset times lead to announcements of "If you don't get that item you really want, we'll be back to get it later!". Now with a 10-man on a 7-day reset, more people want to get in and we're faced with loot issues. By and large, everyone in my guild has been very accomodating on rolls, and very understanding (heck, my feral druid walked out one night with 4 epics...of course I'd just solo'd the chess event after our final Aran wipe before the reset, but hey). Basically guild leadership needs to law down the law on loot griefing - for us, if someone starts griping that they didn't get the Staff of Almighty Blasting because the RL let a boomkin(lol) roll on it, they get a little side-chat with the guild leadership to settle down, it's all really 1s and 0s in the end, you'll get a shot next week, etc.
Another thing that's helped is on the officer section of our guild forum the Class Leaders got together and parsed out the loot lists for all the bosses in Karazhan (and beyond) and put together our priority list for who gets to roll on what (and for hybrids, spec is included). We've got the A list and B list. Any class/spec from the A list that's present can roll on it, no kvetching from the rogues if a kitty rolls on a leather piece, no griping from the mages if a shadow priest rolls on dps magic gear. Nobody from the A list or they pass? Then B list gets to roll. No takers there? Then anyone who MIGHT use it but just ain't sure - then it gets rendered for its sweet voidiness.
James Stevenson May 28th 2007 10:20PM
@4 and 5,
DKP is the true suck of the guilds. I idea that someone who get items from a raid, but not be there is just silly and moronic. You do the raid, you get the gear. In past my guild ran DKP and it ruined the guild. In the new guild we have changed the DKP system to reflect how we operate. Once simple change, You do the raid, you get the loot. If no one NEEDS the raid needs the loot, the the guild can spend DPK, unless it is BoP. If it is BoP, no one in the raid needs it we reach out to the guild (those that are on at the moment) then we shard and anyone in the raid can roll for the shard, one shard per person, per raid. That has killed any fights and all drama went down hill. Hybrids or not, you only roll if you need. Maybe it is because the guild I raid in were older people, or just mature, but we get almost no drama, now.
DontLetsStart May 29th 2007 5:16AM
I really don't see why DPS classes can complain here. Being a pure DPS class is easy, only having to carry one set of gear around. Hybrids need two, three or even four different sets! Obviously they're going to take a lot longer to completely gear up than DPS classes, so if they get an item before a pure DPS class, so be it.
Everyone makes loot so complicated. What's wrong with the simple system of "If you're going to use it now, you can roll. If nobody will use it now, people who might use it for another spec can roll. Else greed it"? If you get a bad roll, someone else gets it, but at least you had a chance. That is IMO much fairer than any other system like DKP.
PoloDude May 29th 2007 6:45AM
I think the best way is indeed letting the hybrids role for their main spec, i'm a balanced druid and i would never roll for a healing or feral item. If no1 else needs the healing it's ofc obvious that if you don't have it yet you can always use it for when you need to backupheal. What i've always found handy to check is this website http://wow-loot.com/ , it can always help when being in a discussion. Think their's even an addon who adds something like that to the tooltip, based on that website (name slips my mind)
Tridus May 29th 2007 8:02AM
Ever notice how 99% of all loot arguments are pure DPS classes trying to stop other people from getting an item?
Honestly, some DPSers don't know just how easy they have it. They only need one set of gear (as #9 mentioned), and that one set of gear is good for everything. On top of that they've got the easiest job in the entire raid, half the time all they need to do is avoid pulling aggro.
Its too bad there's no way to make it a requirement that everybody has to tank or heal for a month before being allowed to DPS in a raid. Those who do quickly discover how much more work it is, and just how little that +300 healing mace helps you outside of a raid group.
Sylythn May 29th 2007 10:52AM
You hit the nail on the head Scott - it's not about class anymore, it's about spec. I play a warlock, so it's not too hard to figure out my looting - but my alt is a retribution paladin...so I'm going to be rolling with DPS warriors for my main gear. But if we get a tanking piece, or a healing piece drop - those are my off specs...I only get a shot at those if our tanks and healers don't need them. That to me, is a very fair system.
Arawn May 29th 2007 1:45PM
I'm sorry, I find this kind of argument to be whining, plain and simple. Roll for it if you feel you need it, if you win, hooray, if you lose, boo, but accept the roll and move on. The only rule that should matter to me is whether the player plans to equip it and use it.
dagevert01 May 29th 2007 10:17AM
It's quite simple, really. If you want those hybrid classes to continue filling the much-needed healing role, you'll toss them a bone every once in a while. I'm resto for raiding, but do you think for a second I would be putting myself through the utter boredom (or stress, when shit hits the fan) of healing if there wasn't a chance in hell for me to get gear for the enhancement spec that I prefer to play as?
Sandtiger May 29th 2007 10:21AM
I'm a paladin main tank for a raiding guild, and honestly there are few pieces that I can use from kara. Pally tanks have to spec (on the whole) substantially differently than Warrior tanks, due to our need for damage and healing. There are only a few pieces of "warrior" gear that I can use and subsequently roll on. We also have 2 pally healers as our main heals, and they already have all the gear from kara they want. (an aside, pally heals are the ONLY pally gear that drops in kara). As such I am now collecting a heal set because no one else can use it. I won't roll against them if they want something, but if no one else does, then its mine. Its the same way with all the other players - if no one else wants it and you can use it as a second set, its yours.
Also, my wife is a feral kitty, and she routinely out dps's the rogues / enchancement shammies in the raid. No rogue in our guild complains if she rolls on what they consider "rogue" gear, and it doesn't even always happen since druids need different gear (slightly) than rogues. Additionally, we give her any gear that is tanking gear (for a bear) over a rogue who may want it since she off tanks certain bosses. Its really whats for the best of the guild - tanks and healers come first. After that, dps shows up, and then off spec gear if no one else wants it.
As an aside, they really really really seem to want pallies to gear for healing, since in no raid is there a SINGLE PIECE of pally tank gear. And the dungeon 3 set gave me such hope....
crsh May 29th 2007 10:32AM
We currently have a problem in my guild, our hybrids were used to having to spec resto for raids, thus we had too many healers (not a common problem..), but now it's whacked because our druids and pallys (we have very few shammys, we're alliance) spec resto all at the same time, then they can't get a spot (too many healers) so they all switch feral and prot/ret at the same time too.
Oh and why aren't priests considered hybrids? Holy and shadow are pretty damn different roles.
Coherent May 29th 2007 2:38PM
I think Blizzard should abolish the "pure" classes such as priests, rogues, and mages and make everyone a hybrid class. Everyone who says DPS classes have it easy "because they only need one set of gear!" is an idiot. DPS classes CAN'T DO ANYTHING ELSE. So their 'advantage' is defined by a gross limitation.
Dyardawen May 30th 2007 5:47PM
The entire issue is mostly stemmed by those goddamn BOP items: Once anyone picked it, he cannot give it away anymore. The party members are forced to decide RIGHT NOW whom to give some particular loot.
Best solution would be if Blizzard would implement some extra rules so that BOP can be exchanged among the party members for a limited time (e.g. as long as the party exists). Additionally, the party leader should have access to a log that lists all green or blue items (or by any means notable), which are looted by party members while the party exists.
So the party members might loot left and right during the raid and they can later decide to whom some particular item should go. That of course doesn't prevent ninja looting (and leaving the party right afterwards), but it would help between guild members.
Second and for the time being the only solution is to decide IN ADVANCE to whom some particular rare item will go in case it drops. As most notable item drops are known anyway, I would consider these decisions a part of the raid preparation.
But that is only my humble opinion for I haven't attended any raid yet.
Byron May 29th 2007 6:46PM
Lots of different opinions on this issue, but I think the key point is that your raid decide IN ADVANCE how loot issues will be resolved, and make sure you cover all the eventualities. Last thing you want on a raid is loot drama, nip it in the bud before starting, and make sure everyone going knows and has (implicitly at least) agreed to it.