Paying it forward in PUGs
by Mike Schramm 
Jun 7th 2007 at 1:36PM
How much, asks Tobold, do you owe a pickup group? He uses the example of Seaforium charges on locked chests-- they can "cost" up to 5g in mats, so is that too much for the engineer to contribute to a group of people he basically doesn't know? Potions are the other big question, but I'd expand it to include everything you bring to a pickup group: just how many times do you need to wipe in a pickup group before you're free to ditch them and move on?I happen to be pretty much like Tobold. I'm not rich in the game or anything, but the money doesn't mean much to me (this is, after all, a videogame), so I'm more than willing to pass out potions at bosses, or stick with a PUG until my gear is red. I guess there are some things I wouldn't spend on a pickup group-- repair bots are just too expensive to use among people you don't know, and while I'm often willing to give lower level enchants away, the higher level enchants I usually save until there's a guildie around that I know can and will use it.
Tobold says, rightly, that groups are "worth" much less in WoW than earlier MMOs-- because you literally can solo all the way to 70, a lot of bad groups can be avoided, whereas in older games, you had to suffer through a lot of bad groups just to level, because there was no other way. But of course it is still just a game-- a good social experience is worth way more than a potion or two, and you never know if the Warrior you give an Onslaught Elixir to today might end up being your main tank tomorrow.
Filed under: Analysis / Opinion, Odds and ends, Instances, Quests, Raiding
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
Udderdude Jun 7th 2007 2:00PM
I go under the "Three wipes and I'm out" rule. Tank repair bills suck. :(
Sylythn Jun 7th 2007 2:03PM
I'm usually almost entirely self-sufficient and selfish in PUGs...I'll bring everything I bring to a guild run...but I'm only gonna pass out renewable resources - healthstones, buffs, etc. As for the wipes - if a PUG wipes 3 times, usually it's not going farther anyhow...most PUGs I know that get to that point mutually decide to call it.
Ender Wiggen Jun 7th 2007 2:15PM
Regarding wipes:
In general, i'm out after three wipes. Of course, if there are four bosses and we only wipe once on each, im not gonna call it just before the final boss, ya know? Or, if we wipe twice on the first pull, i might call it after only two pulls.
Regarding consumables:
I generally don't use or passout consumables during instances and i DEFINITELY won't use them during a PUG. I would rather use ten consumables during a raid boss that we are close to killing than on an instance with strangers.
TV Genius is a Dumb ass Jun 7th 2007 2:21PM
Right away I can usually tell if a group is gonna suck. For instance...if a guy asks "...so um where is Hellfire Citadel?" when were in a group for BF (Heroic), I am usually like "Well its bout time I hit the old dusty trail." As for owning them anything? I'm a rogue with low...i mean LOW lock picking (forgive me for rushing to 70), and I catch a lot of shit for not being able to open stuff, so if I can open a chest I will usually say "I can't open it" and wait till the run is over and go open it when every1 leaves. Selfish I kno, but I'm a rogue...I'm suppose to be a dick :P.
spamcatcher Jun 7th 2007 2:24PM
I'm not big on using consumables in PUG's and I DEFINITELY do not use them in pugs as a general rule.
I will occasionally use a spell damange elixir or a mana potion if truly needed to down a boss and the group has been friendly and sociable. If I did something stupid I will usually try and save myself using a health potion as it was my mistake that got me into that situation. You definitely don't get free potions from though. I've spent the time to farm up the mats/gold for them, so should they.
I usually use a 3 trash wipes rule. If we've wiped on trash mobs 3 times, I'm done. If we wipe on the same boss three times, I'm usually done unless there has been a huge improvement in each attempt. If we wipe once on each boss, I'm reluctant to leave because the group is probably semi decent.
Derelict Jun 7th 2007 2:26PM
For me, it depends on why we wipe.
Bad luck, weird disconnects, or just poor timing are ok. It's just part of the game.
Shooty McPullsALot tagging two different groups of MOBs while I'm sitting down at 20% mana? For the third time? Done deal, they've lost a priest for that run :)
I have started doing heroics, often in PuGs. They can be very rewarding, or very frustrating, depending on the PuG. A three wipes rule doesn't really apply if the group is good ... although a good group shouldn't wipe three times. For me, it also matters whether or not there's wipe recovery. If it's a 2 minute down-time to rebuff / recover, wipes are just inconvenient and a little expensive. If it's a runback each time, that gets old quickly.
As for consumables ... I fully expect (as a priest) to use them. I also fully expect the others to pass on superior mana potions if I've used all of mine :) It often happens, even in PuGs ... folks like the healer to have mana for some strange reason ;)
I often enchant for PuG folks if it's a good group. At the end of the night, if they need an enchant I have and have the materials, I'll gladly do it for them. If it's been a bad experience, I don't offer.
D
annoula Jun 7th 2007 2:42PM
If the healer needs some potions and has been doing an OK job I'll usually pass them along if I have any. Usually once I pick up a few of the new mech/bot/arc only pots I'll pass them straight onto the healer in the group once I have one or two for myself. I'll rarely use buff pots in a PUG (too expensive).
As far as wiping goes it depends. If I have a good group that's been pretty consistently doing well I'll withstand a few wipes (especially in a heroic). But after some point you just need to call it. For example I had a pretty good group doing blood furnace but we kept wiping on this one like 6 mob pull that resets if you don't down all the mobs. After wipe four I just said we didn't have the ability to down everything.
Halicante Jun 7th 2007 2:54PM
I'm on the 3 wipes and out rule for a genuine formed-in-trade-chat pug. I hardly ever really pug, but I've been doing it a bit to finish out the thrallmar rep i procrastinated on. I can usually lead most any group to somewhat of a semblance of success if the tank doesn't suck. If the tank starts talking about his "leet dps" then i gtfo because this means I will be tanking more of the mobs than he will.
And I never use consumables for pugs. Forget that noise lol
Oldbear Jun 7th 2007 3:11PM
With my warrior alt, I like to pass any mana items on the the casters - If it was a good group, I will hand out weapon-chains or spurs if I have the mats. A good PUG needs to be revisited... so I try to leave a better than good impression.
ben1778 Jun 7th 2007 3:22PM
On my warlock I always soulstone the rezzer and do the soulwell for healthstones. It doesn't matter to me if I use 10-20 shards in an instance. I just replenish them when I go farm some primals. I can avoid giving away anything that costs cash to replace and still provide useful services.
I like the 3 wipes rule with the caveaut that the reason for the wipes is taken into consideration. I went through heroic Arcatraz all the way to Skyriss with one wipe, and that was an issue with pulling aggro from a pat that appeared a safe distance away, but apparently was not. We wiped 4 times trying the end sequence of prisoners and Skyriss, but that's okay we weren't too lucky on the prisoner selections pre-skyriss. Oh, and the multiple heroic mindflays are no fun at all.
So will the new trinket change allow us to trinket out of that stun-type mechanic with Skyriss' mindflay?
Menawa Jun 9th 2007 1:47PM
Ive stayed after 5 wipes and left after one. It all depends on the group. If we wipe on the first trash pull because the tank has no idea what he is doing and the healer shaman is throwing earthshocks and spamming LB, I'm out. If we wipe 4 times but its just being too low for the instance, i'm actually kosher with it since I'm probably getting exp and good drops from it. Also I don't PUG on 70's, its just not worth it. The way I figure it, 30-50% of the people who don't suck are in good guilds by 70, so there is a very good chance a PUG is going to end badly.
Thingy Jun 7th 2007 4:38PM
I only pass out potions and other items in guild 5-man runs. If it's a PUG, they get what I picked up in that instance, nothing more. They only get it if I feel they could get more use out of it than me (ie, healer keeps running short I'll pass him/her/it the mana pots I grabbed in that instance, but not ones I grabbed outside it, rogues/warriors the health pots etc).
As for how long to stay in a group, it depends on how well the group is playing their roles. If they aren't looking out for each other, just nuking away without a care and I'm the only one CCing, watching the healer or not pulling aggro from the warrior, aggroing unnecessary mobs, then I'll be out of there at any excuse I can get. If it's just dumb bad luck or us being under geared, I'll stick it out for as long as the group can.
Chris Jun 7th 2007 5:19PM
I generally use the three-wipe rule on trash but like others have said, you have to see how the group is playing together. I stayed in a SL run after 7 wipes because most were just bad luck. I left a SH run after the first 5 pack because the mage wouldn't sheep and the warrior wasn't holding aggro for shit - my pet pulled aggro off him 4 times (and the last three I had growl off). L2Sunder/Taunt! and I have left the group.
Gazoo Jun 7th 2007 6:29PM
Mike, this is the kind of topic I'd like to hear more from you about.. was somewhat disappointed in this articles brevity. Hear a lot of discussion about this in guild chat, and I have always found it interesting to see how group dynamics work and evolve within the game.
Do you use the 3-wipes rule Mike? if so, how did this evolve for you, was it always like that for you? if not, what are your rules of thumb?
Shrug..Im just interested...:)
I try to judge a group on its own merits, but that can be difficult when there is one key player of truly epic suckage proportions (like a bad tank) and the rest of the group is pretty great.
Jashin Jun 7th 2007 6:46PM
Pretty much the same as others have said.
I will put my full effort if others in the group are. I know there is always going to be that one ace-hole who is going to mess things up. But I will always give them the benefit of the doubt. But if they persist on doing things wrong and causing wipes... "sorry, guild is asking for my help... I have to go". But thats rare for me.
Or if the group make up isn't there.. same deal. You can keep slamming your head up against a brick wall, doesn't mean its going to give.
But on the flip side.. i have seen some crappy pugs work out if you just stick with it. Not only that.. when some people don't play well, you learn to play harder. You shouldn't have to pick up the slack, but you definately see how good you are when you can turn a crappy group into a good one. Or turn a wipe in action to a "how in the hell did we survive that?" situation. The feeling is great.
In everquest my main was an enchanter. My job was support and crowd control. With dumbasses over pulling, breaking my mezzes (sheeps, if you never played eq)... I became one of the best enchanters on my server because I learned how to play harder because other people sucked.
As for passing out things. If I know the group is trying hard, I will pass out a health or mana pot or two. But mainly before a boss fight that i forsee we might have a problem with. I would rather walk away with a boss kill, then wipe because the priest went oom, or the tank dropped after getting crushed.
I've been playing for a while. And back in eq, you had to deal with pugs to do anything if you couldn't get a guild group. But honestly.. i think people in wow are kind of wussies when it comes to wipes. Its too ezmode. 3 and out?
lmao...I would love to see you all break into the plane of fear. If it went bad, you were fighting mobs naked.. and you had to learn to stick with your group just to get your gear back.
I say stick it out, you might learn something... or show someone how to play better. If you never tell a newb he is screwing up.. he will never get better.
Mike Schramm Jun 7th 2007 6:49PM
Hey Gazoo. It really depends on the PUG for me-- some PUGs have a few guildies in them who just aren't very good players, so I'll stick around at least until my gear is red. And sometimes I really need a boss killed for a quest, so I'll stay with a not-so-great PUG for a while. Generally, I like to give people the benefit of the doubt, although there are days when I'm just not interested in wiping any more and I give it up after three right away.
If there's just one bad player, I usually whisper the others in the group and we all try to talk to the player about what he's doing wrong exactly-- I believe that some bad tanks can be taught to do better. But if, for example, I'm tanking, and the mage keeps pulling aggro and the healer shields me after the fight is over (and long before we pull again) and the hunter keeps moving in for melee instead of staying ranged, I'm very likely to just give up. That's pretty hopeless, IMO.
Tyy Jun 7th 2007 9:50PM
I am going with the altruistic approach and usually hand out food and elixirs, always to the priest. I even gave a flask away after too many failed attempts in Black Morass.
Why? Because I do not run a lot of instances, my server is kind of empty and I cannot afford to run it over and over again. I want it to become a success on the first try. People usually appreciate it and try harder.
...and I am a nice guy that farms and fishes.
steve Jun 9th 2007 12:10AM
I _HATE_ pugs (And instances in general...), but they are a necessary evil. Sometimes you get into a good PUG, with helpful people who are free with tips, suggestions, etc and and are willing to let the mistakes of a new tank go when they see you're trying. The PUGs that have people whispering about how much the tanks sucks and NOT talking to him about what changes he might make before suddenly getting kicked from the group is outrageous (yet it happens...happened to me). I've been in pugs that wiped several time on 'trash' mobs but stuck with it until we nailed the first boss in one of the Auchenai instances, getting my main, the tank, his tanking shield. That group ROCKED for sticking to it and not bailing and letting me learn a lot while doing it. Not everyone is able to do instances any day of the week, so I was doubly grateful for having that make my weekend such a roaring success.
Scalin Jun 8th 2007 2:59AM
I wouldn't say I owe a lot to a PuG (seeing as how they usually irk me one way or the other), but being a tank, I'll stick around for as long as everyone else will. Soon as someone zips out and we gotta wait more than 5 minutes for a replacement, I'll call it and hearth. Repairs bills aren't that scary for me anymore, even though I'm not rich (I've got about 1/10th my epic mount money), so I don't let money be a factor.
Now, for consumables, the only ones I ever have are ones I need. I need health pots for when the healer lags or Last Stand is about to wear off. I'm a blacksmith, so I don't really deal with consumables. Now, on my hunter in the past, I'll happily give the tank a stack of healing pots at the start. Easy to farm and make, so that's no real skin off my back. Most of the time, when the tank dies, that's GG and unless the mob is nearly dead (read as: I can finish it solo) I'll FD and count my blessings.
RSH Jun 8th 2007 4:38AM
Generally I'll stick around as long as it takes to get the job done, unless the group is utterly hopeless or if we're good players but undergeared/unprepared for an instance. Repair bills don't worry me much since I'll at least break even on almost any instance run, and I'm in it for rep/questing, not money. My main is a rogue, so any mana potions I pick up during an instance go straight to the healer (same with Bottled Nethergon Energy in TK instances), and if we're having trouble with a boss but getting close to downing him, I'll pass out potions from my personal stash if I have any that haven't been put into Injectors yet.