The Paladin Report: What changes are needed for endgame Paladins?
Every other week, Robin Torres investigates Paladin issues, interviews experienced Paladins and reports her findings in The Paladin Report.
After the release of The Burning Crusade, many Horde players raced to level a pally to 70. The addition of this new class prompted many raiding guilds to encourage this, looking to pallies to round out their endgame rosters. Sneet, guild leader for Grim on Daggerspine, was one of these players. He put aside his warrior, the Main Tank in most raids, to bring his new Belfadin to 70 as quickly as possible. This screenshot was taken in February, so, as you can see, he became a raid viable paladin pretty quickly.
Some of the comments for Elizabeth's first Pally column stated that Belfadins were too new to the class to be knowledgeable enough about it. I think that's bunk. A raid boss doesn't stop the action to ask the paladin a question about pre-TBC talents. This isn't a history lesson. We are writing about the issues facing current paladin players. (Though history lessons are pretty cool, too.) Factions are now getting similar raid experiences because they have the same combination of classes, causing post-TBC information to be more universal and therefore more valuable.
I asked Sneet what changes need to be made for endgame paladins to be more successful. I was pleased to discover that this was something he had analyzed extensively. Following are Sneet's views on endgame pallies and the changes he suggests to improve them.
(Robin's note: The following text is taken from whispers in WoW and edited only for punctuation and expanding abbreviations. It turns out that transcribing an interview from screenshots is a lot more work than copying and pasting from a chat program. Lesson learned.)
[Sneet]
From what I see overall with the three trees:
Holy right now is great, pretty powerful. If something had to be changed, maybe put in a heal over time or aoe heal. However, holy is already powerful. I have trouble split healing on large dps fights, if I am a sole healer. That's a problem I run into in Arena above 2v2. In a nutshell, we only have single target heals.
The protection tree right now -- I haven't put much time into it (Robin's note: Jason has), but from what I observe, the problem with the tree is itemization for tankadins. They have too low of stamina and their aggro generation is slightly gimped vs hard/slow hitting mobs.
Next is the retribution tree -- every paladin's hidden desire to spec into. (Robin's note: Not me, but I'm weird.)
The problem with retribution is:
a) People have a stigma of retribution paladins being very bad, mostly because most casual paladins are specced retribution and do not have the gear to support it, thus making the player look like a fish out of water -- totally useless. Breaking the stigma is going to be hard, because the problem with retribution is it's very, very gear dependent -- possibly worse than a Fury Warrior.
b) In a raiding situation, retribution paladins have group buffs that are cool, but not enough for people to give them a chance. Refreshing judgments and 3 Crit Melee/Spell Crit, raid-wide, is cool, along with 2% damage to everyone in the paladin's group, but it just isn't enough.
The good retribution paladins don't really need an increase in DPS, but more utility to bring to the group, to help others, to make up for the lower DPS they have. So talentwise, if they somehow added in a new buff/debuff, it will help break the stigma of retribution paladins being worthless.
One easy way they could try to fix it, is if they made the Vindication Talent proc on bosses again. The talent reduces the Strength and Agility of the target by 15% for max ranked talent. When it was introduced, it used to land on bosses. However, a patch afterward, they removed it from affecting bosses and made bosses use Attack Power instead of Strength/Agility. So, if they do that, they would have to change the boss stats. Also, the problem with that change is that Vindication is so early in the tree, people would argue that a paladin should spec Holy/Retribution and just melee, then go back to healing.
A better idea is to make Repentance a trainable talent or add in a new talent somewhere that provides a debuff. There are enough Hybrid group buffs. If it were my choice, I would want a talent that lands a debuff on the target boss that reduces their stats somehow.
Warriors have Attack Power and Attack Speed debuffs. Druids have Insect Swarm, which reduces percentage to hit. Paladins need a debuff to apply to a target that would be worth it to bring a retribution paladin into the further raid instances. I can't say what exactly -- there are a lot of noble ideas on the paladin forums -- but it would have to be balanced right, which Blizzard is actually good at.
[End Sneet]
Do you agree with Sneet's assessment of Paladins in the endgame? What would you like to see changed for the raiding Paladin?
Robin Torres is raising a couple of Blood Elf Paladins of her very own on two different servers, because one just isn't enough. In her search for knowledge about her new favorite class, Robin interviews more experienced paladins. If you want to be one of those paladins, please email Robin.Torres@weblogsinc.com for a possible future column.
After the release of The Burning Crusade, many Horde players raced to level a pally to 70. The addition of this new class prompted many raiding guilds to encourage this, looking to pallies to round out their endgame rosters. Sneet, guild leader for Grim on Daggerspine, was one of these players. He put aside his warrior, the Main Tank in most raids, to bring his new Belfadin to 70 as quickly as possible. This screenshot was taken in February, so, as you can see, he became a raid viable paladin pretty quickly.Some of the comments for Elizabeth's first Pally column stated that Belfadins were too new to the class to be knowledgeable enough about it. I think that's bunk. A raid boss doesn't stop the action to ask the paladin a question about pre-TBC talents. This isn't a history lesson. We are writing about the issues facing current paladin players. (Though history lessons are pretty cool, too.) Factions are now getting similar raid experiences because they have the same combination of classes, causing post-TBC information to be more universal and therefore more valuable.
I asked Sneet what changes need to be made for endgame paladins to be more successful. I was pleased to discover that this was something he had analyzed extensively. Following are Sneet's views on endgame pallies and the changes he suggests to improve them.
(Robin's note: The following text is taken from whispers in WoW and edited only for punctuation and expanding abbreviations. It turns out that transcribing an interview from screenshots is a lot more work than copying and pasting from a chat program. Lesson learned.)
[Sneet]
From what I see overall with the three trees:
Holy right now is great, pretty powerful. If something had to be changed, maybe put in a heal over time or aoe heal. However, holy is already powerful. I have trouble split healing on large dps fights, if I am a sole healer. That's a problem I run into in Arena above 2v2. In a nutshell, we only have single target heals.
The protection tree right now -- I haven't put much time into it (Robin's note: Jason has), but from what I observe, the problem with the tree is itemization for tankadins. They have too low of stamina and their aggro generation is slightly gimped vs hard/slow hitting mobs.
Next is the retribution tree -- every paladin's hidden desire to spec into. (Robin's note: Not me, but I'm weird.)
The problem with retribution is:
a) People have a stigma of retribution paladins being very bad, mostly because most casual paladins are specced retribution and do not have the gear to support it, thus making the player look like a fish out of water -- totally useless. Breaking the stigma is going to be hard, because the problem with retribution is it's very, very gear dependent -- possibly worse than a Fury Warrior.
b) In a raiding situation, retribution paladins have group buffs that are cool, but not enough for people to give them a chance. Refreshing judgments and 3 Crit Melee/Spell Crit, raid-wide, is cool, along with 2% damage to everyone in the paladin's group, but it just isn't enough.
The good retribution paladins don't really need an increase in DPS, but more utility to bring to the group, to help others, to make up for the lower DPS they have. So talentwise, if they somehow added in a new buff/debuff, it will help break the stigma of retribution paladins being worthless.
One easy way they could try to fix it, is if they made the Vindication Talent proc on bosses again. The talent reduces the Strength and Agility of the target by 15% for max ranked talent. When it was introduced, it used to land on bosses. However, a patch afterward, they removed it from affecting bosses and made bosses use Attack Power instead of Strength/Agility. So, if they do that, they would have to change the boss stats. Also, the problem with that change is that Vindication is so early in the tree, people would argue that a paladin should spec Holy/Retribution and just melee, then go back to healing.
A better idea is to make Repentance a trainable talent or add in a new talent somewhere that provides a debuff. There are enough Hybrid group buffs. If it were my choice, I would want a talent that lands a debuff on the target boss that reduces their stats somehow.
Warriors have Attack Power and Attack Speed debuffs. Druids have Insect Swarm, which reduces percentage to hit. Paladins need a debuff to apply to a target that would be worth it to bring a retribution paladin into the further raid instances. I can't say what exactly -- there are a lot of noble ideas on the paladin forums -- but it would have to be balanced right, which Blizzard is actually good at.
[End Sneet]
Do you agree with Sneet's assessment of Paladins in the endgame? What would you like to see changed for the raiding Paladin?
Robin Torres is raising a couple of Blood Elf Paladins of her very own on two different servers, because one just isn't enough. In her search for knowledge about her new favorite class, Robin interviews more experienced paladins. If you want to be one of those paladins, please email Robin.Torres@weblogsinc.com for a possible future column.
Filed under: Paladin, Analysis / Opinion, (Paladin) The Light and How to Swing It






Reader Comments (Page 1 of 3)
mick Jun 12th 2007 5:29PM
Are you kidding? STFU and QQ more noob. Paladins are the best healers in PVP and PVE AND have better survivability than any class. As soon as the pally bubble only absorbs 1-2k damage, can be purged and dispelled, and they can only wear cloth armor, then you can get AoE heals, hots, and a free crowd control.
Really just STFU and L2Play
Apollon Jun 12th 2007 5:33PM
I agree, just because you’ve haven’t been playing a class since Beta doesn’t mean you have no right to state your opinions/report on it. The self-righteous Alliance pallys who trolled the last one need to go back to the official forums where they belong. Also, they are the reason why I refer to my Pally as a Blood Knight, because it pisses them off to no end. Holy Warriors… /snort
Anyway, I enjoyed the last article and look forward to reading more wowinsider Pally commentary. Great job you guys! Keep em’ coming.
Coherent Jun 12th 2007 5:37PM
I'm a bit more concerned about the fate of Alliance Shammies, who don't seem to be enjoying the same success as their belfadin counterparts.
Jack Spicer Jun 12th 2007 5:47PM
I don't think that all three talent trees need to be raid viable. When was the last time you brought a fury or arms spec warrior on a serious raid?
ErsatzPotato Jun 12th 2007 5:54PM
@ Mick: "Really just STFU and L2Play"
Back to the official forums. Shoo.
"Some of the comments for Elizabeth's first Pally column stated that Belfadins were too new to the class to be knowledgeable enough about it. I think that's bunk."
Have sneet write the column. Problem solved.
Two columnists with shiny new paladins can and should write the My New Paladin Adventures blog. "We went to Uld..." They are not qualified to handle a serious class column.
Futura Jun 12th 2007 6:03PM
@2 LOL
Blood Knight? How emo.
Balasan Jun 12th 2007 6:05PM
Really I don't understand why alliance paladins look down on us. I mean WE'RE PLAYING THE SAME GODDAMN CLASS. Sure you've seen more ups and downs than we do and you've seen the changes that made or broke the paladin, but we share the same problems as you do TODAY and that's what matters most isn't it?
We were just as hurt as you were when blizz nerfed illumination. And as a paladin tank myself I can absolutely appreciate the fact that I have noticably less health than my warrior and druid counterparts and need much better gear to be at par with them, JUST LIKE YOU ALLIANCE PALADINS DO.
As far as the article is concerned, I don't see Robin trying to give tips to pallies or anything, she's collecting insights and discussions and issues plaguing us all.
Why can't you guys try and help Robin make a better article by emailing her about what YOU think are paladin issues instead of shooting her down? You never offered to write paladin articles anyway, so who's to blame?
I don't want to continue this quibble between alliance and horde pallies, coz we suffer the same nerfs blizz gives us. And only together can we help pressure blizz to give buffs to us like the other classes.
WatcherZero Jun 12th 2007 6:07PM
Holy is fine, doesnt need anymore changes, if anything its too strong compared to priests holy tree.
Prot is fine for non raid-boss tanking. I would agree with the lack of stamina and would say slightly more mitigation is needed, but as to threat ive seen no problem whatsoever. We can even keep aggro on a dozen mobs that are being all out AoE nuked by mages and locks which warriors struggle to do.
Retri is broken, its fine for soloing but doesnt bring more to the raid than is lost by a dedicated DPS or holy/prot paladin. Thing is though that not every tree needs to be raid viable, you dont see Disc priests, elemental shaman or demonology warlocks complaining theyev got one non-raid talent tree. okay maybe shamans complain a little :)
Skulltula Jun 12th 2007 6:23PM
What is really stupid about the hater alliance pally comments is that they dismiss what is said purely based on the grounds that anyone new can't have a valid point. They aren't saying that anything the writers are saying are flawed in some other way. If there really is a reason to troll they need to give a pointed analysis instead of crapping all over everyone.
bugmaster Jun 12th 2007 6:24PM
well tbh retri isnt as broken as most people say, atm we have this one paladin in the guild who can stay on par on dps with most of the mages in the guild, this might change once we progress further into the end game but atm pre ssc i dare say theres nothing wrong with dpsadins just as sneet sais its all gear dependend
Bugmaster out
Sylythn Jun 12th 2007 6:39PM
If you ask me, the problem with both pallies and shamans in raid situations is that they are expected to do 1 role, throughout the whole raid. Yet they're balanced in such a way as to be decent at 3 roles at the same time, with perhaps a leaning towards one based on spec.
That's why they both shine in 5-mans, where you don't have enough people to pigeon-hole the hybrids. You can have your retribution pally off-tank a 2-mob boss fight, or off-heal a particularly tough pull, or add their DPS to the mix to bring down the mobs faster. You take a pally or shaman into a 5-man expecting them to do it all...yet you expect them to do only 1 thing in a raid. And by design they're not stellar at just 1 thing, that's why they seem gimped to people.
The folks that gear and spec so tightly into on type of play are the ones that can overcome this and still be viable pigeon-holing themselves, but it's tough to do.
I think of like getting a PhD...you've specialized so narrowly that you're really not qualified to do what you used to do anymore. You're only good at your specialty now.
syco Jun 12th 2007 6:45PM
I recently respeced my mid-30's Ret pally to Protection, and I'm enjoying it, never played a tank before. I seem to have a bit more trouble collecting aggro than a tankspeced warrior, but it's not bad, and Righteous Defense makes grabbing mobs attacking my priest that's far away pretty easy.
The only problem is that, now that I have almost no int on my gear, I am a pretty terrible healer, which annoys some people. But Seal of Light seems to keep me in health, at least.
jayus Jun 12th 2007 6:51PM
New? My Paladin has been 70 for two months, I've main tanked every 5man normal, almost all 5man heroics (you could not PAY me to go into heroic bot), and I'm about to start main tanking Kara with a druid OT.
Oh and he's a blood elf... I think I'm ready to start talking with the same credability as the bitter healbots who've been playing since beta.
Arturis Jun 12th 2007 6:51PM
My main is a 70 Alliance side Paladin, who is currently specced Holy just for the benefit of the guild (we have a severe lack of high lvl healers). At any rate, I also have a Blood Elf Paladin, though only lvl 23 at the moment, thats specced Protection. Personally, I love the Paladin class, no matter if its Horde or Alliance, and I would love to see some of the changes that Sneet suggested go into the Retribution tree. I played from lvl 1 to 70 as Retribution, fighting up close and personal against whatever we had to face, and Id love to be able to viably play that way again.
Dipstick Jun 12th 2007 7:11PM
Our main enemy is stigma. Before TBC it was 'OMG we need priest Paladin's can't heal!'.
Now it's "let's take a warrior or bear druid, paladin's can't tank". I once offered to (as a level 70 protection paladin) run a group of 60s through HFC. When I joined the mage simply said: "Paladin's can't tank, they don't have a taunt!" and left the group. The others were still sceptical. Needless to say the run went flawlessly anyway. What can one do in the face of such mindless ignorance?
Similarly for Retribution paladins, they get the "pallies can't DPS", with frequent attempts to prove otherwise being put down to "your rogues/mages/rabbits suck".
I agree that if Vindication becomes a debuff much like Curse of Weakness then there will be a spot for Retribution Paladins in raids even if their DPS is still below average. As it is now the talent is a waste of space. Threat is also an issue for Retribution paladins.
Holy Paladins are fine, Protection needs some more work to put paladins on the same kind of level as Druids and Warriors, but here again we meet the brick wall of stigma and gear.
I welcome Horde paladins as they bring a new outlook to the class and usually rolled one for very different reasons to most Alliance paladins.
Nibuca Jun 12th 2007 8:21PM
Odd synergy, I wrote this earlier today WRT HoT:
http://warcraft.fibergeek.com/?p=196
WRT "What's broken?"
Holy: When compared to Priest or Druid healing, Holy is perfect. Really great single-target healers. Unfortunately we shouldn't be just like Priest or Druid. Paladin is supposed to be a "melee healer" and yet none of our healing skills (aside from Judgement of Light (which everyone seems to ignore)) are dependant on us being in melee.
Protection: The fact that I have to follow an exact list of what armor I need down to the specific enchants in order to be considered a viable endgame tank (http://warcraft.fibergeek.com/?p=144) tells me that either our stats or our itemization (or both) is broken. The DPS sucks.. but who needs DPS when you have threat? This tree is bloated and needs some pruning desperately.
Retribution: If Retribution is the Paladin's PVE DPS tree.. then retribution needs a threat reduction that can be used more often than once every 5 minutes. If Retribution is the Paladin's PVP DPS tree.. then it's probably fine (I've never spec'd Ret and I dislike PVP so I'm shooting in the dark here)
The biggest problem I see with Retribution is that no one can agree on what the tree is for.
euphorion Jun 12th 2007 8:28PM
I played my paladin from 1-70 as a healer. It was my choice, and I enjoyed it until a couple of months after TBC came out. It's a strong class, and I really don't see why ret needs to be raid-viable... every class has it's traditional "raid" specs and "solo/pvp" specs.
The spec really does seem to draw players who don't have a clue. These are the ones who never bothered to figure out their own Blessing system, don't refresh judgments or switch auras, and refuse to heal... auto-attacking with SoCommand up doesn't make you a DPS powerhouse.
Basically, Ret is fine for what it's supposed to -- burst DPS that is great for soloing or PvP. Blizzard doesn't need to revamp a fully functional tree just because a group of players insist that they should have One Spec to Rule at Everything.
Nibuca Jun 12th 2007 8:46PM
Does anyone every start off a 5-man by asking the Mage/Rogue/Warlock how they're spec'd?
Why -shouldn't- all three Paladin trees be at least 5-man valid?
"Sorry, you can't join our PUG because your DPS is bursty and you only add 2% to everyone else's DPS and you have no way to shed threat."
StormC Jun 12th 2007 9:08PM
Why a paladin report?
There a already the best viable, end game healers in the game. If theres to be a report on how the class should improve, paladins should be put way back.
Holy priests need their love too
twh Jun 12th 2007 10:26PM
@Jayus
"Oh and he's a blood elf... I think I'm ready to start talking with the same credability as the bitter healbots who've been playing since beta."
No, you're not. I mean, no. No. No. And no. You have to be a bitter healbot for quite a while, being treated like a second rate citizen with regards to loot, before you can speak with any cred on this class.
@Skulltula
The problem is that these new players, who've been paladins for less than half a year, are offering their advice on how to fix things when they've more likely than not, never touched the other aspects of the class in the first place.
See the picture in the article? That's the Purple judgment set... a HEALING set... and he himself has admitted to not putting much time into the other trees... see the problem here?
Granted, his ideas are not without merit, i.e. the Threat Reduction for Retribution, but it's hard to take the advice of someone new because we know what's wrong, we know what we need, and it's rather aggravating to hear someone miss the point almost entirely.
@Balasan;
the reason why for the hate is because of the idiocy endured from Horde players that claimed they were going to play them better than Alliance players did. Funny how most of them ended up as healbots and now they remain silent.