Why does the Horde always lose Alterac Valley?
by Elizabeth Wachowski 
Jun 12th 2007 at 9:19AM
Alterac Valley seems to be the hot topic on the General Forums this week, as "Horde ... you just don't get it", "BLIZZARD is FLIPPING THE MAP" and "How does flipping the AV map make it fair" have risen to the top of the forums. Basically, the Horde says that the Alterac Valley map favors Alliance, since Horde have to make it past the bridge chokepoint and the Stormpike graveyard is more secluded and defended than Frostwolf. The Alliance, on the other hand, blame the Horde's perennial losses on AFK people, a defeatist attitude, and a lack of defense, and note that Horde seemingly has no problems steamrolling Alliance in WSG and AB. In response, the Horde has issued a challenge for Blizzard to flip the AV map and see if the Horde's win-loss ratio doesn't turn around.
Now, it's hard to generalize about who wins AV more, but judging from the forums and my own experience in AV (dozens of losses and, like, two wins), it seems that the Alliance win more overall. Is this the fault of the map? Could be. The bridge and the graveyard are always giant roadblocks, and the Horde graveyard is woefully open. But if the Horde wanted to, they could make a similar roadblock in the one building that Alliance have to go through to get the last graveyard. Fight for that like the bridge and Alliance won't win so easily. At least back in the day, Horde lost AV because of all the AFK cavejumpers, the fishers, the level 52 warriors screaming orders, all the people who would leave when Balinda was dead, and the magic summoning stick Alliance used whenever they were losing to get everyone in Tier 2.5 or greater to queue for AV at the same time.
Alliance, how do the battleground terrain maps look from your side? Does flipping all the BG maps for a month or so sound like a good idea?
Filed under: PvP
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 5)
Gill Jun 12th 2007 9:26AM
The last few times I played AV, the Horde steam rolled us. The difference? They actually played defense, mostly camping inside with Drek. It delays everyone trying to get to Drek and his WMs, and also gives ample time for the offense to punk Vann. Turtle matches also seem to favor the Horde.
So no, I don't buy the argument that "AV map favors the Alliance!" If only the Horde can put up some strategy on the defensive end, the victories even out in the end for both sides.
Mad Cow Jun 12th 2007 9:32AM
Back when I PvP'd like there was no tomorrow ... Horde NEVER lost AV. IF an AV lasted more than 30 minutes, people went apeshit. We'd have Lok up before the first bunker fell and the game would pretty much be over.
I haven't PvP'd since 6 months before BC came out (got my rank, did my time) so it may be different now with the gear matching system ... but back in the early days of cross-realm BGs, Horde owned AV in my battle group.
Warsong was a different story =/
WP Jun 12th 2007 9:32AM
horde always lose? ..huh? seems like every BG i get into they lay waste to us in no time. i think the article should be about why the alliance always loses.
edthurston316 Jun 12th 2007 9:32AM
If that's so, flip the map and see. What's the harm in testing the difference for a month... playing without your chokepoints for a while? ;)
SeiferTim Jun 12th 2007 9:31AM
Now, I don't play very much PvP. I haven't played AV in a few months, but both of my level 60+ characters are Alliance, and I distinctly recall losing EVERY match I've ever playing in all the BGs. I can't recall a single time that Alliance has come close to winning. I think it's just a matter of perspective.
Blake Jun 12th 2007 9:39AM
The big difference was that you could capture the horde's aid station in stealth before and you couldn't get the alliance one do to mob placement. This made it incredibly easy for a couple alliance rogues to take over the closest GY to the keep and bum rush straight through all the checkpoints.
That has changed as of 2.1 i believe so now it is a little more level, but the fairness of the map is a good question. It does seem though that devs are working to make it more level even though the minor thing mentioned above took a couple years.
Sylvina Jun 12th 2007 9:40AM
It'd be interesting to see what happened with the map flipped, maybe it'd just be psychological and the Horde would have a better esteem/desire to win assuming the match is already in their favor due to the map flip.
Personally though, I really do agree it's the AFK people and defeatist attitude, everyone is there for their marks, and that's about it. Alliance also have superior zerging skills, kekekekeke.
Prauche Jun 12th 2007 9:42AM
1, 2, & 4 are employing a new forum strategy...."if we say we always lose then maybe they won't flip the map."
"I suggest a new strategy R-2, let the wookie win."
=D
Dacool561 Jun 12th 2007 9:50AM
well now we know where all the alliance read their wow info lol. So let me enlighten you guys on how the Horde view AV. I admit that horde have no concept of Defense, i always jokingly say in my AV games when they all want to rush "Stupid alliance exploiting that defense thing!"
1. Horde has to follow a narrow path to get to alliance base with SP and the bridge being a huge choking point. Alliance have a much bigger area to work with.
2. Horde base is designed so u can skip 90% of our npcs. Alliance base is so compact that a untimely AE will cause the wrath of a billion elite NPCS.
3. Towers are much easier to ninja flag cap than bunkers ever could be.
4. Aid Station flag is right in front of Generals room. While Relief Hut is away from the horde's general room. This means that any idiot who pulls all the marshalls out, wipe the horde forces right there at the flag point and alliance can ninja.
These are just minor points though. The main point and i agree with most people here is that horde just dont know what defense is. and if we can't get a good zerg from the start we will just play half-heartily to get our single mark and some honor.
ben1778 Jun 12th 2007 9:52AM
I use a mod to track the wins/losses of my BGs and in the Stormstrike Battlegroup the Horde dominates in WSG and AB. I've only played 22 games of EotS but it's pretty even (Horde have been 13-9).
I want to call attention to the fact that this past weekend was AV weekend and the numbers/outcomes of the battles during AV weekend never match up with the avg numbers from the rest of the month. During the AV weekend the alliance win about 68% of the time. I've started counting avg afk-ers on AV weekends vs other weekends and there's an average of 5 more afkers per battle.
That being said, on a non-AV weekend the Horde in stormstrike battlegroup can expect to win 73% of the AV matches according to my addon (from the past 200 or so games).
I think I am one of the few people out there who actually enjoy playing AV.
Angael Jun 12th 2007 9:55AM
Thats a pretty dumb post I would say. Doesn't even make sense. On our battlegroup horde wins 80% of the time, except on AV weekends when its about 60%.
The horde has map advantages over alliance as well. For instance their starting cave is closer to our base. Also they can guard the alliance RH much easier since its the location where war masters get pulled. Where as alliance has to keep 1-2 people on guard at all times to look out for rogues trying to cap RH.
In our AV games Alliance goes for honor and Horde goes for marks, I assumed it was like that everywhere.
Seper Jun 12th 2007 9:55AM
nooo I've been pvping a ton over the past couple weeks. We lose in Ab and WSG CONSTANTLY. Av alliance usually wins (but the math has been like 35/40%-65/60% for alliance.)
Eye of the storm has been pretty much equal.
If anything alliance should be qq'ing about the battlegrounds.
dagevert01 Jun 12th 2007 9:58AM
AV *is* unbalanced for Horde. The imbalance doesn't make it impossible to win but it's definitely harder. Here's the problems I see:
The bridge. Yes, that one, in Alliance territory. It's an awesome choke point that slows us down a lot (assuming we make it past stormpike, there's no question that GY is a lot harder to take than the Frostwolf GY is.) Our equivalent chokepoint is IB GY...however, that chokepoint more often than not ends up working against us. As soon as IB GY is capped, rezzers are forced to our starting tunnel. When that happens, we now have to ride past the now-Alliance-held IB GY, and more often than not a handful of Alliance players camping there can easily send us right back to the tunnel. (I *HATE* THAT DAMN TUNNEL.)
The Alliance base is much better laid out as well. Towers are placed more strategically and Horde invaders are pelted with arrows that hit pretty hard given what they are.
I've been on a battlegroup where Horde *ALWAYS* lost AV...hell, before the whole cross-realm battlegrounds thing kicked in, I got to full exalted in AV without seeing a SINGLE win. I've also been on a battlegroup where Horde almost always won. But even on that battlegroup, Horde wins took substantially longer than Alliance wins.
Ryan Jun 12th 2007 10:01AM
1) The bridge.
2) Honor-leeching hopping afk-bunnies.
NewDark Jun 12th 2007 10:00AM
I play alliance and AV fairly often, and i'm normally one of the bastard hunters shooting from some unknown spot at stormpike.
I do agree that the map favors the alliance a little bit, but I never see any horde defense at all.
Alliance + Defense = Win
Horde + No Defense = Lose
I know if they switch it up im still defending the graveyards even if its a little harder for me to have a sniper position, and that little tower hut thing in the horde base IS a chokepoint, but not used... sad really....
jiki Jun 12th 2007 10:01AM
Long time reader, first time poster. Just had to respond to this - I play horde and we win at least 50% of the games in AV. I have some fubar addon that actually keeps track and right now our win rate over 215 games is 55%. Over the past 2 weeks it's about 68% win rate. I don't buy the "AV favor's alliance" argument at all. If you can get 8-12 horde to play some D, we stomp all over Alliance. Even 4-5 defense can slow them down enough to where we get Vann first. That bias argument really just seems to be a way that AFK'ers justify to themselves and everyone else what they do.
Endir Jun 12th 2007 10:01AM
The map is balanced for premade vs premade, because everyone understands the map and knows what they are doing -- and DON'T want a turtle. Of course, premade vs premade is now pretty much impossible.
The map is alliance biased for PUGS.
If Horde uses their comparable choke points vs a PUG, there is a huge risk of a turtle, which no one wants.
Also due to graveyard placement and topography it is easier for a lemming pug to see, on alliance side, what they need to guard and what they need to do etc.
Viet Jun 12th 2007 10:06AM
Perhaps different battlegroups have varying experiences, but on Ruin, Horde dominates WSG and AB. Both of those maps require defense as well, so you cannot blame AV losses on lack of defense as we do defend on those maps. The Horde has grown accustomed to forgetting about defense because it usually does not help and only drags games out to an eventual loss. I've seen it happen countless times back in the day.
Both sides have AFKers, and even that I do not see as much anymore.
It is easier to defend from the alliance side due to the choke points being where they are. We cannot skip the majority of NPCs as the Alliance can. The map really is biased as several posters have already pointed out, and if they flip the map for one week, I am sure we will see Horde dominating AV as we dominate all other BGs.
I for one would love to see this change.
Quoi Jun 12th 2007 10:30AM
I love how the Horde complain about Alliance choke points.
Hello?!? We have to go through a tower and an 8 foot wide path fenced in on either side!
NH2 Jun 12th 2007 10:09AM
Before BC I did a bunch of PVP in the battlegrounds. Sadly I don't have access to my HonorFu mod here at work so I can't quote my exact win/loss ratio but I think I only won 5 or 6 games of AV out of the 50 or so I was in.
The perception, at least in my battlegroup, is that Horde always loses AV and always wins AB. I'd personally play defense in a lot of those games just to slow the alliance down (though 1 warlock against 20 or so alliance isn't good odds.) It gets sort of frustrating but it wasn't as bad as WSG. In AV, at least you still get a decent amount of honor if you lose. In WSG if there's a flag standoff and you still don't manage to cap a single flag you've pretty much just wasted a large amount of time. That and the premades... /shudder.
I'll have to go back at some point and see how everything is working after BC...