Ask WoW Insider: When is it fair to upgrade an epic?
by Barb Dybwad 
Jun 15th 2007 at 3:00PM
Welcome back to Ask WoW Insider, where each week we publish one of your questions. Last week we had some fun imagineering new battlegrounds, and this week we turn our attention once again to an issue near and dear to our hearts: loot. This week's question comes from Chris, who wants to know about etiquette regarding rolling or bidding for an epic drop to replace an item in a slot that is already an epic: All DKP ideas aside, when is it fair to upgrade an epic over an epic?What say you, readers? What factors should you consider when bidding or rolling on an epic drop that will replace a piece of gear on your character that is already shiny purple? Should you gear up those in blues first to help your guild, or is your dkp yours to spend on whatever you like with a free conscience? How much of an upgrade does it need to be to justify taking it over the lesser-geared?
Here is the situation: We are running Karazhan and the Staff of Infinite Mysteries drops. I, being a mage, have the epic spell blade form Thrallmar and epic off hand I got from turning in badges of justice. In addition to my weapons I have dropped all money making professions to take up tailoring and enchanting and power leveled them up to get the best gear and enchants possible to make raiding easier. Everyone else has just started doing the same thing finally and are a bit slow in the progress.
Now, every DPS squishy wants the staff because it's an obvious upgrade to their blue weapon and I want it because it's an upgrade for boss fights because of the +hit and secondary stats. Would it be fair to roll for the staff seeing as how I have worked hard to get where I am at and still consider the staff to be an upgrade? Or should I just let the people that haven't worked as hard to get geared out take it in hopes it helps out the raid progression a bit faster.
My opinion is that passing on loot to help those less geared out is like taxing the smart to help the dumb. Perhaps you have a better theory.
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Filed under: Items, Raiding, Ask WoW Insider
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
mark Jun 15th 2007 3:16PM
You shouldn't be penalized because you did the pre-raid work by gearing yourself up to help the raid as much as possible. You should definately roll on that staff and I hope you get it. I'm tired of the lazy people in my guild who won't even enchant their stuff. Gotta do work to get rewards. You did the work- now comes the fun part.
LanceG33 Jun 15th 2007 8:56PM
You seem to have worked 'I am a harder worker' into the equation. It appears you have posed the scenario in such a way to recieve favorable responses to support a case or some such.
Duncan Watson Jun 15th 2007 3:18PM
My basic line here is simple. If you are there for the drop you have the option to spend the dkp on the item. You can't ignore dkp as dkp is what keeps the high attendance people in check grabbing every item.
I am also an advocate of bid dkp systems so first and early drops of particular items tend to go for more dkp. Thus consuming the dkp of the top 10%. These types of systems keep it fair and balance the desire to no penalize the high attendance members vs the newcomers who need gear badly.
Tinwhisker Jun 15th 2007 3:19PM
I've always been of the opinion that helping gear the group as a whole should take priority over individual progress (at least in raiding).
We don't use DKP in Kara/Gruul's/etc and things like that staff are free-roll. The idea though is that a 20% upgrade to someone in blues is better for the group overall than a 2% upgrade to the epic players.
Sure, you may have worked a lot harder but you're now to the point where it doesn't matter what you do. You can't progress by yourself, you need other (geared) players to go further. By taking that weapon you are only holding yourself back.
Is that really fair? Maybe not. But at least try to be happy for that player in blues who's week you just made.
Saavuori Jun 15th 2007 3:36PM
Helping gear up the rest of the raid helps you progress, which helps you to get even better gear quicker. Sure you could go for the staff now, but if you let a blue-geared caster have it, it will help you down even better bosses, with even better upgrades for you. So it's far from a waste to help your other guild members gear up. Furthermore, it creates a better working atmosphere, and said guildie might pass on a small upgrade for him when it's a big upgrade for you later on.
It's basically a choice of being a team player, and helping your raid progress, or trying to horde all the loot so you can be higher on the damage meters.
Tseran Jun 15th 2007 8:00PM
Okay, I am going to say, the analogy the questioner gives of taxing the smart to help the dumb is a very unfair analogy and I am sure many will find it quite offensive.
The deal of better geared players vs. worse geared is not just a matter of "I geared up faster and better then anyone else, therefore I am better then everyone else" is a horrible attitude. People who focus on getting better gear constantly and ignore everything else are probably the ones who end up using other folks to get their stuff, making runs into instances on and off heroic mode just to make themselves better. That is fine. If you want to play that way, go ahead, that is how you play the game. Not everyone does though. Some people like to take their time, enjoy a fun quest or two, and go at a more leisurely pace. Other people may not be able to play as much as you so cannot excel as fast as you. Are you saying that they should be punished for that?
Now, all those arguments aside, gearing up the entire raid is ALWAYS better. If you got sick and could not attend a raid, and you were the main one all epic'ed out, then the raid would suffer when you were gone. If the purples were all spread out, then one person being gone and replaced by someone else wouldn't be THAT big of a deal. Here's the thing, if you want to progress further, you have to gear up EVERYONE, not just yourself.
Rod Oracheski Jun 15th 2007 3:28PM
I agree that a player shouldn't be penalized because they took the initiative to get rep rewards or do constant Heroics to get Badge rewards, while others didn't bother.
Helping the group is fine, but I draw the line at items that you had to get 'on your own' like rep rewards or a drop from grinding.
If it's upgrading an epic that you got in Karazhan on an earlier run, then I'd pass. It does make sense to improve the guild over yourself. I just don't like the welfare players taking advantage of that.
Jared Jun 15th 2007 3:31PM
I think it comes down to how "together" your guild is.
If your guild is hardcore and hangs out all the time, then maybe you are friends. I would trust a friend to use the items he gets to help me. So if something dropped and either I could get it for 2% upgrade, or my friend could get it for 20% upgrade, it would go to the 20% person. This is a group mentality.
However, if you do not trust your guild, and you feel no attachment to it, or certain guild mates, then a self-centered point of view may be in order.
Another factor is the size of your guild. If your guild is only 25 strong, and you are doing Kara and further, it leads me to believe you have a good team going. This might mean the 20% would get it.
If your guild is 540 strong, and you have many different groups doing Kara sometimes, you might not have a strong team built. Your success may rely on some people coming to the raid being really good singularly, because some people coming will be horrid. If your guild is 540 strong, not all will be good players.
If you owe someone something, give it to them.
If you do not owe someone something, you can do what you want.
If your guild's rules are ridiculous, change it or leave.
Hidden_Agenda Jun 15th 2007 3:35PM
Had you recently gotten an epic weapon from another raid, then I would say you should probably hold off. Since that is not the case however, and you did a lot of work to purchase you current weapon, then you should not feel guilty about taking the new weapon. Sure, passing on it may help someone with a blue, but you (having the better gear, will no doubt be to the majority of raids, and thus will be helping out the guild more than someone who has not put in as much effort.
Rex Jun 15th 2007 3:43PM
IMO, you should have passed. If you take all loots like this, your going to be far ahead from the rest and eventually just have to wait for everyone else. If you let others get gear, they can perform better and overall be better for the raid. This has happened to me... being left behind like this really sucks. You get a gear upgrade, then you get picked for more raids. As a result you get even more gear and totally overpower others in your guild who also need raids. Just my 2 cents.
Kire Jun 15th 2007 3:43PM
IMO Rolling rules in groups/raids should be very simple. If you need the "need" it. Otherwise "greed" it. Meaning that if the item is a definite upgrade for your toon at the time of the roll aka you can\should equip it immediatley. No alts should be considered. Dont need just so you DE.
As far as some ppl who think they work harder than others is a too general statement that, although will fit a lot of WoWers, doesnt fit everyone that has poor gear. My character doesnt have the best gear but I will never get it if I dont have a chance for it. I play wow cause its a fun game. I dont want to play just to farm a thousands in gold and spend half that on over priced enchants that has the possibilty to be replaced the next time I run an instance.
Falconous Jun 15th 2007 3:47PM
It's the responsibility of each member of the raid to prepare themselves gear-wise, consumable-wise, and to do their homework on the fights. If you have guildies walking into Karazhan without the best gear they can get their hands on, then it is their own damn fault. Not showing up to a raid 100% prepared is letting down everyone else in the raid.
The exception being of course is if your in a casual guild that only raids once or twice a week and isn't worried about progression. At that point its a different ball game.
But if you guild is serious about progressing, or simply strives to their best in raiding then simply put you should roll on the item.
iggypappa Jun 15th 2007 4:24PM
I think it all depends. If this person is in your standard raid group then yeah give them the item. I would just let the person know that if u let them take it, that you expect to get the dagger from the prince if it drops (that really would be the best item for you). I think that would be the best upgrade for the group and you need all 10 people to be geared to be successful in kara. I understand that you’ve worked real hard to get the gear you have but a group is only as good as the weakest link so that would be my choice. I am sure everyone knows and appreciates your effort in the guild.
tedger Jun 15th 2007 3:52PM
I have go agree with Tinwhisker. I'm in a small guild and although that changes things a little we still have to deal with people of higher and lower skill, fortunately we're at a relatively close gear level. That being said when things like epic tanking trinkets drop in heroics it's generally understood that if our main tank is there you pass so the group as a whole can move on.
That being said if someone hasn't spent a copper on enchants because their epic flight skill (or a more heinous situation which I've seen where pre-BC a paladin refused to use greater blessings because he was trying to save for said skill which wasn't even available yet) we've got another issue all together and that person is being greedy which in my mind hurts the group more then not trying to spread the loot.
lolwtfstfu Jun 15th 2007 3:53PM
rep rewards don't count as epics imo cause everyone can get it and its easily farmed for
JJ Jun 15th 2007 3:55PM
Do you actually like the people in your guild? If you then maybe you should start offering to help your 'competition' get the items you have now? It's true that it may be more work, but 1) they get the same thing you have so they can't be pissed off that you're taking a minor upgrade 2) convince them to 'pay it forward' i.e. have them help others so you have even less people with the gear and 3) suddenly you have a bunch of people with better gear in the guild who are happy with you for helping them.
Of course, if you don't care, then just roll anyway.
Frogs Jun 15th 2007 3:56PM
In my opinion, give first priority to the person wearing blues who shows up for raids, plays well, brings consumables etc., then to the person for whom it is a smaller upgrade who is prepared for raids and plays well, and last to the person who is wearing blues but doesn't show up all that often and isn't a very good player.
Matt Zell Jun 15th 2007 4:05PM
It is "OK" to roll on this if it is an upgrade.
However, if you run weekly with these guys, you may have to ask yourself if it is more important to upgrade your equipment, or more important to advance the raid so you can get more total drops and/or move on to higher level raids. It may be in your long term interest pass for that reason.
Freehugz Jun 15th 2007 4:05PM
I say it depends on how your guild is going on karazhan. If you have it on farm status, then go ahead and roll on it. If not, then you should probably do what's best for progression and pass.
Tinwhisker Jun 15th 2007 4:09PM
For those of you like tedger (#11), you're right about people who don't get things enchanted; they don't deserve the drops (usually).
But it's a relatively moot point as you shouldn't be taking those players to raids anyway. They likely don't have the gear to even survive the trash pulls.