Forum Post of the Day: Are PvP weapons balanced?
by Dan O'Halloran 
Jun 15th 2007 at 6:30PM
The forum is ablaze over at WoW's official European site. And it all has to do with the upcoming Arena Season 2. The patch just hit the test server this week and the dps on the new weapon rewards is...eye popping.One player wonders why should she be raiding 5 hours a night, 7 days a week for months to get a weapon that can be earned quicker in PvP? Her guild is only on Serpentshire Cavern, but she worries about her motivation to continue the grind towards Black Temple when she can acquire the same weapon much quicker by PvPing.
Is Blizzard making a mistake making high end PvP gear more accessible than PvE raid gear? Do they expect players to both PvP and PvE to mix and match the best gear? Shouldn't non-raiding PvPers get their game best gear also? Tell us what you think.
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
HankD Jun 15th 2007 6:43PM
Drysc's post on the matter, on the forums...
[I]I get the irony being portrayed in this post versus the other one, and I have to admit I also take some small pleasure in seeing these accusations thrown around, because... they're ridiculous.
If you're in the arena, and raiding is so much easier, then go raid.
If you're a raider, and the arena is so much easier, then go do arenas.
You're not actually concerned that someone else is getting something easier than you, because you would go do it and wouldn't look back. You're either unable or unwilling to switch to what you perceive is the easier route, and want what you're invested in or willing to do made easier based on what you perceive matches the effort invested in the other.
It goes either way, posts pop up with both viewpoints. Arenas are so easy, you just sleep your way to epics, or raiding is so easy, you just sleep your way to epics. If it's all just so easy then why don't you take the easier route? The grass is always greener.[/I]
Tiforix Jun 15th 2007 6:58PM
It really depends on what you want gear for.
That is, WHY do you want more powerful gear? Obviously, to kill more powerful monsters and/or kill other players faster.
To do either as efficiently as you can, you need specialized stats. It's worth nothing that raid gear and PvP gear are NOT the same. PvP gear favors stamina and resilience, on the assumption that you'll be taking lots and lots of damage. Raid gear, on the other hand, is specialized for long, controled fights rather than short bursty ones. For boss fights, casters and healers need lots of mana, but not as much health and defense.
Presumably people raid because it's fun. I know I definitely enjoy seeing new bosses and the thrill of killing them for the first time. Arena PvP might offer gear faster, but that gear simply isn't suitable for boss fights. To kill bosses I need the gear that drops in raids.
In short, there should be no quarrel between raiders and PvP'ers. The gear is specialized for what they like to do.
mattyt17 Jun 15th 2007 6:59PM
I for one, love raiding and hate arena and I completely agree that raiding is more work but I would never give it up to go pvp...
I believe rewards should reflect the work you put into them, and the raiding drops should at least be on scale to arena in every respect.
Gurei Jun 16th 2007 1:17AM
Sure pve takes a lot more than the ez mode arenas,but then if arenas didnt have the same quality rewards,pvp would be under pve and both are suposed to be on par.
On a side note,pvp BG weapons(honor) should also find a way to be on par,its unfair that its now downgraded to blue set.
alex Jun 15th 2007 7:24PM
BlizzCon 2007 Tickets: Sold Out! - 6/15/2007
Dipstick Jun 15th 2007 7:25PM
Once upon a time 80% people doing of PvE content were doing so to get gear that would help them kill other players in battlegrounds/world map. This was due to the fact that the old PvP honour system was unrealistic for people wanting to play more casually.
Now the tables have switched somewhat, you only really do PvE content to experience game content due to the fact that better stuff for pvp is available for less raiding effort (potions/elixirs/flasks/learning wipes) with the new honour system and arenas.
That's fine by me though, I always enjoyed PvPing on my paladin so made a warlock for PvE content. Weird switch huh? :P
Savok Jun 15th 2007 7:33PM
For christ sake.
Just do the Arena and pick up a weapon for raiding if you think they're that spiffy. Isn't raiding about doing everything to help the raid? Do the Arena and you're helping the raid.
Thorgrim Jun 15th 2007 7:35PM
The solution is to make the gear more specialized. Resilience isn't enough to differentiate weapons for DPSers. The PVE stuff should be given some sort of bonuses that make the PVE weapons more attractive for PVE without affecting PVP at all; that would preserve the desire to PVE for better gear for people who like PVE, and take away the "requirement" to PVP for arena weapons in order to progress in a raid.
It already works for tanks; the PVP weapons are not really great tanking choices. Things like -threat flat modifiers and procs, stuff that only procs against mobs, whatever. Give the PVE weapons desirable effects for raiding that don't affect PVP, and you'll have your solution to the imbalances. You just need the pvp weapons to be better for pvp and the pve ones to be better for pve.
Of course, then some people will complain about having to get *both*... but, honestly, screw those people. :P
Steve Jun 15th 2007 7:41PM
For some people, the PvP weapons are definitely better than items they can get in raids, due to their guild's PvE progression. However, the notion that they are "easier" to get is vastly overblown.
I quit raiding when the expansion came out (I used to run a guild that raided Naxx & AQ40 and what nots), and turned focus to PvP because it didn't require as many people & commitment.
Our arena team doesn't have a good class balance that took advantage of the imbalance in 5v5 arena games, and many of our arena team members are also time restrained, meaning we're going into arena in level 70 blue & green gear.
We got killed by teams coming from raiding guilds. Hence our rating really wasn't great, and our point tally on a weekly basis wasn't great either. At three weeks before the end of Season 1 I finally have enough point for a MH weapon, but of course, by that time we knew that Season 2 was coming, and I didn't spend any of my points.
It takes a lot of skill, time, dedication & learning to be one of the higher rated Arena teams, and if you have good PvE raid gear, you would beat up on a lot of teams that doesn't have the same level of gear. I am one of the most well geared for my team (providing most of our DPS & what nots), and I spent hours and hours grinding honor to get all the epic PvP honor gear, after spending hours and hours trying to procure the best blue gear to fill in the rest of the spots.
The idea that getting Arena gear is easier than raiding is vastly overblown. If you don't have the skills & gear, you'll consistently find yourself barely breaking 1500, or perhaps below that rating. Most people on my server with great PvP gear, started with great PvE raiding gear, which allowed them to progress their ratings faster (often playing more than 50 rated games a week) and led to great Arena gear. If you started without raiding gear, it is very, very tough to progress in Arena.
Many of the PvE-only raiders, especially on PvE servers like mine, don't have the skill & reflex to be successful in Arena. So how is that "easier"?
drakar24 Jun 15th 2007 7:41PM
It's a wash really. If you look at the Talon (sword from SSC) and add in the extra dps from agility and AP it's pretty much the same thing as the slicer from season 2. If I already had a Talon, I wouldn't waste my points on the slicer.
However, I don't have one. We're still meandering through Karazhan at the moment. And I will get one since the DPS will last me till SSC. The next best sword off-hand isn't until Mt. Hyjal which is a long way off for us.
Mats Jun 15th 2007 8:33PM
For healers and Tanks this is not much of a issue. But currently any DPS that raids should look toward Arenas for there gear. Get a night per week that you usually raid, spend 1-2 hours and get all your 2v2, 3v3 and 5v5 brackets filled up. After 2-3 weeks you will end up with the required arena points so that every DPS in your raid will have better DPS gear then what you are currently raiding at.
It seems like you have to go into Arena now to get your weapon. Raiding won't bring you the required gear, and without the required gear, you won't progress in raids.
notahero Jun 15th 2007 8:49PM
@11
Exactly. I'm a Tank for a guild that is just finishing up Gruul and so I am almost done with my T4 set. It took months for our guild to progress with getting the strategies, the people, and the drops. I still have never seen the belt off Moroes, at almost 20 kills - that's 5 months of raiding. Yet our rogues and mages were able to pick up weapons and gear within our first month in KZ. By the time I see our first T5 token drop most of our DPS classes will have already gotten Arena gear equivalent and will have had them for a while.
I suppose I should be thankful they enjoy raiding, because obviously they don't desperately need the gear. They just seem to be filling in the gaps that Arena can't give them. ;p
Yes, I could go into the Arena and get some T5 equivalent gear, but something tells me 38% crit with devastate spam isn't going to kill Illidan. Then again, by the time we are getting to him, perhaps the Arena people will be gearing up with T6 or T7?
Steve Jun 15th 2007 8:54PM
@11
I think some of your information is incorrect, if I'm reading what you've posted correctly.
"spend 1-2 hours and get all your 2v2, 3v3 and 5v5 brackets filled up."
You seem to imply that if you play all 3 brackets, you get pointed piled up from all 3 brackets. That is not true. You are only awarded the points from the "highest" of the 3. Since only 5v5 is awarded 100% of the points, you would need significantly higher rating in 2v2 and 3v3 to get the same points as 5v5.
So the point accumulation isn't as fast as you seemed to have implied.
cluelessnoob Jun 15th 2007 9:12PM
@11 ... you couldn't be more wrong.
> Get a night per week that you usually raid, spend 1-2 hours and get all your 2v2, 3v3 and 5v5 brackets filled up. After 2-3 weeks you will end up with the required arena points so that every DPS in your raid will have better DPS gear then what you are currently raiding at.
You clearly haven't tried pvp. A player only receives points for one team size, not all three. If your 2v2 earns 200, your 3v3 240, and your crappy 5v5 only gets 220, then you as a player earned 240 arena points that week.
The arena calculator at mmo-champion shows that a 5v5 team rated 1500 would earn 376 points a week. That's seven weeks of breaking even to earn the 2625 points for a one-hand weapon, or 11 weeks of breaking even to earn the points for a two-hand weapon. That assumes you don't buy any armor along the way.
Anyone who thinks arenas are easy mode should try it sometime. Many of us have raided and pvp'ed both, and raiding is by far the easier of the two ... just more time-consuming.
mike_a Jun 15th 2007 9:56PM
Blizzard are desperate to keep their failed pvp concepts going. That's why they have to tempt players by buffing the heck out of everything. Bring on warhammer....
Asspigeon Jun 15th 2007 10:59PM
"Is Blizzard making a mistake making high end PvP gear more accessible than PvE raid gear?"
YES!
freehugz Jun 16th 2007 12:51AM
"Is Blizzard making a mistake making high end PvP gear more accessible than PvE raid gear?"
NO!
(see what i did there?)
Asspigeon Jun 16th 2007 3:06AM
There are two reasons why Blizzard shouldn't be buffing PVP gear to the level that they are.
1. The PVP gear coming out for season 2 is equivalent to T5, something only a handful of the best guilds on each server can get from PVE. This will allow anyone with a reasonably skilled PVP team to outfit themselves by the end of the season. Meanwhile, there are still only going to be a very small number of people with actual T5. This makes raiding useless for gear, and relegates it to something only hardcore PVErs take part in.
2. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Obviously, Blizzard had a successful formula going with Azeroth and the old world. Raiding was where the best gear came from and PVP was enjoyed as a afterthought and by a few hardcore PVP fanatics. Now, with the drastic changes they have implemented, the tables have shifted. PVP has become the best place for gear (assuming T5 and arena season 2 gear are equivalent), and PVE has become the "grind-fest" that the old PVP system once was. I for one love raiding, and do not like the new direction the game is taking. The recent decline is players could easily be interpreted as thousands of PVE players leaving the game.
Scalin Jun 16th 2007 3:28AM
As both a non-raiding 70 and a non-PvP'er (warriors suck at it unless they have superb gear), I'm torn.
For the purely dps classes (hunters, mages, locks, rogues), sure, I'd rather spend a few hours a week with a good friend or four and get Arena gear since the stats are sexy enough to work in PvE raiding.
For everyone else (which have hybrid roles), PvP might be good, and it might not be good. I'm not going to find good tanking gear for my warrior by PvP'ing. A healer might not find as good healing gear through PvP'ing. But then again, these classes might find that fun dps set for solo'ing.
So complain, uproar, or just get over it. Go raid, go PvP, or like normal people who care, do both.
Birthmark Jun 16th 2007 5:08AM
I'm not gonna visit this site anymore. Too many PvP haters writing articles. No... the gladiator weapons aren't out of control. Comapre them to craftable weapons. Are the craftable weapons out of control? Why not ask that instead? What's the matter? Do you happen to be a blacksmith with a deep thunder?
Pfft everyone knows that it's craftable gear that's really out of control. Not arena gear. The craftable weapons are infinitely easier to get yet have similar DPS and better top end damage. And if you know anything about this game, top end damage is VERY important.
If anything what we should be talking about is why were the PvP weapons nerfed from 3.8 speed to 3.6?
If Arena truely is so easy then go get the gear from it? Is it because you know Arena is hard as hell and getting 250 points a week isn't exactly a quick way to get leetsauce weapons?
I'm sick of people trying to get PvP gear nerfed. Get a life. Stop raiding. Arena rewards skill. Get over it.
And you're exaggerating how often this person raids. Atleast I hope you are. It took me like 2 weeks after we first started doing Karazhan to get a Gorehowl AND a decapitator. I got an emerald ripper and despair like a week later not to mention the other dozen or so epics I got out of there including 2 Tier4 helms.
It took me over 2 months to get my two hand gladiator weapon because my teams were only rated like 1800 for a while. We finally got better as a team and broke the 2000+ bracket. But that was like 3-4 months after the arena season started. We were only getting like 500 points a week for like 2-3 months. Now we get over a 1000 but that's because we're the best players on our server.
And the gladiator gear, including the weapons, cost 15% more for season 2 which is totally retarded. Go ahead and go get your 5/5 gladiator + weapons. If you can do it in under 7 months then you can talk about nerfs.
Good luck getting all that EZ mode arena gear with your typical 1597 5v5 arena team...