Breakfast Topic: Spec for yourself, or for the guild?
by Krystalle Voecks 
Jun 17th 2007 at 8:02AM
![[Yes, that's really old gear. She's been shelved for a really long time.]](http://www.blogcdn.com/wow.joystiq.com/media/2007/06/fireball_mage.jpg)
This question actually came from Guild Chat in <It came from the Blog>. A few evenings ago, there was some question about the best spec to level a Druid with, and while many people returned Feral, just for ease of soloing, it actually brought up another point. You see, our little Insider guild on Zangarmarsh is very much focused on being completely laid back. This means we have no intent of running endgame raids, or anything of that nature. Obviously, this means you can level as hybrid or off-spec as you like -- points in all three, or points in none if you're out to try something completely off the wall! But this got me to thinking about a guild I had been in. Once upon a time my main was a Mage, who I took to endgame on a combination Arcane/Fire spec that I had an absolute blast playing. Once I got to endgame, I specced her Frost as all Mages at endgame were then expected to spec for raiding. After raiding for a while, I got incredibly bored with her. I wound up switching full-time to my Rogue when the chance came. Now that Burning Crusade is out (and my Rogue is comfortably at 70 with my Druid catching up) I've finally taken my Mage off the mothballs. After speccing her back to Arcane/Fire, I'm having a lot of fun tearing around and burninating the countryside with her again.
For those of you who have ever switched a spec for a guild/group/battleground, how did you feel about it later on down the road? Did you miss being able to tinker with your build? Did you resent having to do it? Did you get bored with it? And for those of you who say that you would never spec for a guild's progression, would anything ever induce you to reconsider? Have you ever switched back, progression be damned -- or even left a guild over being required to keep a certain spec?
Filed under: Analysis / Opinion, Odds and ends, Breakfast Topics
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
Acariquara Jun 17th 2007 8:32AM
TROGDOR!
Elra Jun 17th 2007 8:40AM
God protection tree as a warrior is boring. If you take it, you have to put atleast 51 point into it, so there goes all other points than 5/5 parry and 4% crit.
imtraum Jun 17th 2007 8:59AM
I attempted Protection when I was assigned secondary tank in a budding raiding guild, and hated it. I left shortly afterwards, since they refused to allow me to spec Arms even though I was the secondary, not primary, and already half-geared in epics from my previous raiding experience. Haven't raided on any of my characters since and love the freedom.
golffuul Jun 17th 2007 9:20AM
To me, I think if you are in a guild which is going to do any end-game raiding, then you are, essentially, leveling your character for that class's primary purpose, i.e., Warriors are tanks, Priests are healers, Mages, Warlocks, Hunters, Rogues are DPS. The only real wiggle room you have in terms of options would be the hybrid classes. I always think its crazy to see people who go against what the natural ability of the class is, and, more importantly, how the developers forsee it to be used when they created the Boss Encounters and mob fights for the various instances, and just go with some crazy spec that gimps them in their raid dps, but it might allow them to do better in pvp. What I say to that, is if you have 2 toons...that you reserve one for raiding and one for pvp/questing/farming, that way you don't have to worry about respec'ing and such.
There are 2 problems that exist for guilds that label themselves as casual.
1) Usually there are enough people in a "casual" guild who want to raid, and they should be allowed to. But with saying that, normal "casual" guild policies are that the guild never forces anyone to respec. BUT!!! For the raid to be as successful as it can be, people will have to adhere to certain rules and more importantly, roles, so that the raid has the best balance and chance of succeeding.
This leads me to my second point, which is an offshoot of the first point.
2) If you have a portion of your guild that raids, why do you have to label yourself as a "casual" guild at all? Why can't it just be a guild with many facets that everyone can take pride in? Why does it HAVE to be one thing or another? Can't all of them coexist and still be friends without having to limit a players' ability to enjoy all the content that the game provides?
I've been in a couple different guilds, due to the rising and falling of interest that existed in them and their ability to keep a population above 10 players on per night. Both of them started off as a guild that raided. All the officers raided 2-3 nights a week...all the members wanted to raid when they had available time. But then they both got to a point where they decided the best move to cater to everyone was to just be a "casual" guild, and this ruffled my feathers quite a bit as that was not why I had joined these guilds at all. Promises were made that couldn't be kept, yadda yadda yadda....and I left for where I felt was the best fit, ultimately even changing servers to do so. Now, interestingly enough, one of the guilds has returned to raiding with a small contingent of people in Karazhan. The way they did it was, essentially, by having to dictate who could and couldn't come for the sake of the raid to be successful and they have had amazing results...downing illhoof and almost shade of aran on their SECOND TIME IN THERE. This all leads back to the point that I am trying to make, and it is this:
If you choose to raid, you should be prepared to respec for the sake of the raid. The decision is yours to raid and be under the leadership of a raid leader...so please don't get upset that you can't bring your retribution pally, when the raid needs another healer and you can easily respec to holy. I have raid lead on many occasions and a singular frustration to me, is someone who specced improperly for their class and is "gimping" the raid because they decided to get lightwell instead of 10 more points in holy. It's something that everyone has to consider going in. You ask for 3 full healers and if you can't get them, you can't run the raid and if one person is holding it up, than how fair is that to the other 9 players who probably did respec or spec'd themselves with raiding in mind?
Another thing to mention is that if people come out and say, "What does the guild need?", than be honest and straightforward and say, "we need dps" or "we need healers" or "we need tanks". Give them a goal to work towards and help them to accomplish it. That way everyone feels like they are contributing to a team effort, no matter how "casual" a guild it may be.
Jason Jun 17th 2007 10:00AM
@4: I disagree. Wanting to experience content at max level has nothing to do with creating your character to fill its primary duty. It has everything to do with gearing and specing to fill a particular role that your class is capable. Once you've done that, it's about learning how to execute that role to the best of your ability.
As far as casual guilds go, casual guilds can raid. However, unlike Nihilum, Curse and DnT, to name a few, the casual guild isn't there for a world first. They're not there for loot. They raid simply to experience the content. They do it for the thrill of the hunt, the joy of the kill. There's no set schedule for any of this. If they don't have enough on for an attempt, fine. If they don't have the class balance available, same thing applies.
Ultimately, experiencing content doesn't make a casual guild a raiding guild. Raiding guilds are the way they are due to a mentality; same thing goes for a casual guild.
Sterling Jun 17th 2007 10:56AM
Agree with 5; disagree with 4 :)
Back in the day (pre-BC), I was a fury-spec warrior trying out main tanking for a guild in ZG that was casual-based. After doing what the guild considered was an amazing job, I voluntarily respecced to protection. Since I had never been prot before, I had an unusual learning curve "learning to play" as the hardcore wannabes like to say. After doing a few raids as main tank, I quickly regretted being protection spec. FYI: this was back when each tree had 31 point trees. I had no DPS and constantly lost aggro from being prot; doing boss encounters that required 2+ tanks was no problem in me passing over tanking duties.
But, when I went back to a dual wield fury build, I was able to tank again. Granted, I wasn't a steel safe with a squishy core meant to be waled upon anymore, but I actually felt like I contributed to the raid ... my beating on the boss actually did some damage vs. just keeping its attention. Being in def stance with a flurry proc was one of the things that both surprised the DPSers and helped keep aggro. Also, class rewards and drops from ZG and AQ20 weren't specifically geared towards "tanking"; they were geared for multipurpose use: both tanking and melee DPS.
In the end, being a warrior not just standing there spamming sunders and waiting for the next heal but having DPS and tanking abilities working together made raiding fun for me. The guild didn't mind that the fight lasted a few minutes more either, which helped out a lot. We had ties to a couple other guilds where a warrior in full Tier 2 would tell me how to "do my job," but I've been playing since the original closed beta, so a guy that wants to narrowly focus his attention on one role a class can possibly play has little to no influence on how I play.
CVJ Jun 17th 2007 11:31AM
@6
"I had no DPS and constantly lost aggro from being prot;"
I was prot for the longest time and it was easy mode for keeping agro and was always at the top of the threat meters, you were more than likely doing something very wrong or your guildies were terrible about managing their threat.
Lunada Jun 17th 2007 11:43AM
I was a doomchicken druid all the way up to 70 and further. But then i got bored a bit and in the true spirit of the druid i wanted to see what the other specs were like. So far, I respeced for the first time and i took everything in the feral tree. And, although feral druids are a dime a dozen, i can see why people take it...its great for pvp and farming. Also it gives me the perspective of tank and physical DPS without rerolling. And soon i will respec restro tosee what that is like and to give me perspective of the healers roll in groups.
All in all, i agree with 5 but also add that if respecing for raids makes you happy, then by all means do it as much as u like. But if doin so makes you disgusted with your toon then dont. This is a game and no one has the right to tell you what and how you should play.
Play in the way that makes you happy ^-^
Magnarussa Jun 17th 2007 11:49AM
The guild I'm in doesn't required people to spec to the guild's needs. Granted it's a more casual guild, but we raid and PvP a lot as well. We each make our spec work for its purpose. The way the guild leader sees it, "We don't pay for you to play so we have no right to tell you how to play." You gear and spec the way you want and it just works for us that way.
Lostmimic Jun 17th 2007 11:59AM
My favorite excuse is: "You dont pay my 15$ a month, I can play how I want!"
My favorite response is: "Your 15$ is screwing up our 360$ a month, know your role!"
Does this mean I dont believe in offspeccing? Heck no!
If there are sufficient tanks in your guild to opperate smoothly (Mix of warriors druids and maybe a tankadin (if he has the skill/gear)) then the other warriors can go arms or fury or w/e, but if a shortage of tanks comes about its your responsibility to the rest of the guild to spec prot and tank until you guys recruit another tank and then you can spec back. As an off spec you should be taking the scrap pieces the main tanks dont want and build a tanking set, so if this ever happens your not completely gimp.
I know I used tanks as an example, but healers and other multi roled classes are in the same boat. Some times my guild has too much healing so I go spec shadow for the week, I collected 800+ dmg gear so I wouldnt be completely gimp (and so i can solo lol) but you get the idea.
Remember you are not downing bosses by yourself, you are part of a larger group, a group in which you have to give in order to receive, so if you dont want to pay the price for raiding DONT DO IT
@ #9: That will work up to a certain point, then you will hit a wall and that mentality will have to change or you wont progress any further
Rich Jun 17th 2007 12:19PM
Spec for yourself or the guild? That's easy, if you picked your guild right, its the same spec.
If you joined a raiding guild to raid, then you need to spec the way they want you too. You made the decision to raid and you need do what benefits the raid.
If you join a guild that are casual raiders and you don't plan to raid, then spec the way you want. If you decided to go on a raid, expect to be gimp unless you are just filler.
If you didn't choose your guild right, then expect trouble. My friend and I joined a guild that was claiming to a "casual raiding" guild, when we were in our mid-20s. All was fine and dandy, until about a month later when the GL and officers decided they wanted to raid all the time. All level 60's were to respec to the spec they dictated. My buddy had just hit level 60 and was a Boomkin. He balked at the idea of respec'ing because he wasn't planning on raiding. He was told anyone in the guild needed to do as they say and everyone at level 60 was expected to raid 3x a week. Needless to say, about half the guild quit inside of a week.
Moral of the story, choose your guild wisely and the right spec is there.
rick gregory Jun 17th 2007 12:22PM
Hmm... the question presents a false choice. respeccing weekly is easy. Yeah, you'll spend 50g.. so what? That's a couple of primals which is 30 or 40 minutes of farming. If your guild raids weekly, spec for the raid, respec for other stuff.
If your guild raids nightly or often, i.e. if it's hardcore, you need to spec for the raid. That's the deal you make when you join a raiding guild - it's silly to whine about it afterwards.
BUT.... re #4s point on speccing only one way per class - there's more than one spec that can work for a classes primary purpose. I'ma rogue - the acknowledged BEST raid spec is Combat Daggers with Combat plus other weapons being next. However Mutilate is very fun and does great damage. A top rogue can more than carry their weight in such a spec... and if they're doing so they should be able to spec that way.
Paw Jun 17th 2007 12:27PM
I have respec'd on occassion, but only for my own purposes. I don't belong to a guild, so it doesn't really matter to anyone else. As far as PuGs go, I tell you up front that I am a pure ret pally (I solo on a PvP server mostly), if you want a heal, go find a priest. I will heal in a pinch if I see you in trouble, but my fun is bashing things with heavy, metal objects. Most casual players are good to go with whatever they can drum up, especially in pre-BC content, those who aren't usually bail before we even start. My mage is straight frost, so don't expect mega-dps, but I will keep the mobs under as much control as I can...again...if they're cool with it (no pun intended) they stick around, else they quit.
I was actually thinking about starting a guild on Smolderthorn (A) for casual players. No rules. No schedule. More for just a way to negate the join my guild spam I get a couple of times an hour during moderately busy times. Two simple rules...have fun; help fellow guildmates when you can. If you want to raid, have fun, but no expectations can be placed for spec upon individual players. If you can only get so far withthe players spec'd the way they are, oh well. If they want to respec and have another go, by all means do. Any harping on others, any demeaning others, any micromanagers show up, they will be released. Too bad the WoWInsider guild isn't there already.
Medros Jun 17th 2007 12:42PM
My guild has never asked me or forced me to respec. Some have recommended I look at other specs, and through the PTR I have, but they have never said 'Med, you need to respec to XXXXX' because 1) I wouldn't. 2) I don't raid, and 3) I pay for this game. I put my time into it. Even if I did raid, it's only 5 hours of my whole week. I am not going to sacrifice my entire week's worth of playtime enjoyment to make raiding easier. Accept me how I am, or don't accept me.
To me, telling someone they need to respec is going beyond what anyone in this game has the right to do. When someone else pays my game time, they will have the right to dictate how my character is played, but I do not see any amount of raiding making up for hurting yourself while out on your own.
Laukidh Jun 17th 2007 12:51PM
I respecced away from destruction since our Arms Warrior main tank couldn't hold aggro (surprise). Everyone said Affliction is the spec for raiding locks, but I went with Demonology... Wanted improved seduce, and I hadn't tried out the new demon. I'd hate to give up the felguard now that I've finally had a chance to play with him.
Now that our warrior is protection, and also now that he visited the trainer and isn't using rank 1 of everything in the prot tree, I could probably spec back... But I don't think I will.
I do miss my 2k incinerate, though.
therationalpi Jun 17th 2007 1:45PM
I'm lucky that I've never had to spec something for a guild that I didn't want to be. On my warrior I've always wanted to tank, and I am wanted for my tanking abilities. On my Shaman, I've never chosen a raiding guild, because that character's primary focus has been PvP.
In my opinion, if a guild wants you to spec something you don't want to play, tell them to take a hike. However, don't expect to get any slots in a raid if you choose some awful/unnecessary spec.
Also, you have to bring something to the table to get a slot. If you want to be a Fury offtank, show that you can get some respectable tanking numbers in that spec, and point out that on fights where there isn't a need for an offtank you can bring some nice DPS. If you want to bring an enhancement shaman to a raid, show how Windfury/Strength of Earth and all your other nifty skills can up the DPS of your melee group or pimp out the Threat generation of your tanks.
Also, my guild once had a very "unique" survival hunter. She contended that her 61-point survival build brought not only utility, but DPS. We had her in our runs for the primary purpose of DPS, but her damage was on par with the protection warrior. What it came down to was that if she wanted to stay that spec, she had to prove that it could produce, and when she couldn't do that she switched specs and immediately flew up the DPS charts. The moral of that story is that you can be the spec you want if you can produce, but you need to switch if you can't.
Patrick Schriner Jun 17th 2007 2:10PM
I have a druid and a paladin, and switch specs constantly. Not for my guild's raids per se, but for myself - even at 50g / respec it's ridiculously cheap compared to what you gain by questing etc.
Paladin is switching between healing (raids) and protection (fun, questing, 5 man insts). Even though we normally have two warriors on our Kara raid I've picked up more def items than healing items, and like to put them to good use in between raids.
Druid is obviously Feral or Resto.
I've never regretted spending 100g / night to respec - I LIKE to play this game right now because I don't mind switching roles (at least, I think that's one of the reasons).
If you're raiding, I think it can be expected that you contribute something usefull, especially in Karazhan. Luckily right now almost any spec is viable.
golffuul Jun 17th 2007 4:06PM
This is #4...the point of my topic, and I thought I had made myself clear, but obviously not, was this:
You are choosing to raid. With proven stats/specs/gear to support which specs are the best for raiding (My assumption for this is that everyone is at competent raiding gear and is going to attempt Karazhan/Gruul), I don't understand why people wouldn't want to have the raid succeed. You wouldn't want to take your 20/21/20 mage into karazhan because you felt that the mana regen would be best. Why would you bring a knife to a gunfight? It hurts the raid and it ultimately will end in the raid not being successful, aka...no more raiding.
I have seen lots of comments, so far, that really only prove my point. The problem with dps classes and specs is that there are particular specs, unfortunately, that maximize dps output. For Mages, it's 10/48/3. For Rogues, as #12 said, It's combat Daggers/Swords. For Warlocks, as #15 said, it's Affliction.
Again, the point that I originally made....still stands. You are choosing to raid...why wouldn't you want the raid to do the best it could, so you could succeed as a guild/raidgroup? That's all it boils down to, to me. You want to do something to succeed, right? I couldn't imagine wanting to run an instance or get involved with a raid that all it does is wipe constantly on the first boss it sees or the first set of mobs it sees. How much fun is that? If everyone came in with inferior gear and specs, how successful would a raid be? If everyone in the raid concentrated on maximizing dps/healing output/armor(as well as def rating for tanks) don't you think the raid would do better?
The only reason why I say anything about this...cause I usually don't make too many comments on forums such as these, but I do enjoy the topics to read...is that I feel like Karazhan is too easy to not be completely successful at, and for everyone to have lots of fun and get some good gear, in the process. I want everyone to succeed and enjoy the game to its extent. And for someone to change their spec to do that, to me, is minimal to have the raid be successful.
Enjoy :D
Binrah Jun 17th 2007 7:49PM
Thankfully, I've never had to respec. After a long career as a shadow priest, I hung up the healer's mantle and rolled hunter when I found out a bunch of my friends started up on another realm.
We've got the classes and roles distributed well among our group of 10 that everybody can do what they want, and have enough flexibility that if we end up raiding Kara in, say, 6 months, we'll be able to do it, no worries. Me, I'm just happy to be able to shoot things and play a more tactical role than healbot. :)
Dean Jun 17th 2007 10:11PM
We've always been a very flexible guild that raided casually - as a druid I regulary second-tanked in Zul'Gurub even before druid tanks were considered entirely viable.
We're now doing Kara and progress is fairly slow (up to Curator), but the guild never insists anyone spec in a certain way, and we haven't really had any great choice in who we take to Kara as we don't really have enough people wanting to go on each run to be that picky.
Nevertheless we're starting to have to narrow things down a little now: basically for Kara there are 2 tank spots, 3 heal spots, 2-4 ranged dps spots and 1-3 melee dps spots. Arms/Fury warriors or Ret Paladins are perfectly welcome but they just have to be aware they're competing for spots with the rogues, and shadow priests with the mages and warlocks. And like 95% of guilds we're shorter on healers and tanks than dps, so they'll have more chance if they spec for something else.
Of course, easy for me to say as someone who can go as dps or tank without a respec...