Encrypted Text: Instruments of stabbiness

So you've decided to become a rogue. Roaming invisible through the darkness, lashing out in fury with your blades, the bane of casters in PVP, the most sustainable DPS in PVE, the most mispelled class name of all. You've picked your race, entered the game, rerolled your race because you noticed your stealth animations sucked, and finally started leveling. Then one day while you're grinding in Darkshore or running through Wailing Caverns, a nice weapon drops, and you finally have to face the question that all rogues must answer someday -- what kind of weapons do I want to use?
Whereas other classes are defined by their spec -- "I'm a feral druid," "I'm a prot warrior," "I'm a resto shaman" -- rogues are defined mainly by their choice of weapons. This is because we can only DPS, while many other classes can tank or heal as well. (At least until Dogan's Bandage Spec becomes a reality.) Plus, from my experience in-game, not too many non-rogues know much about rogue talent trees. ("So you're Assassination ... is that the one with the thing that lets you sneak up behind people?")
While you're leveling up early, you'll probably just use the best weapon you come upon, whether it be a sword, a dagger, a mace or a fist weapon. This is a pretty good strategy, since it gives you experience with all the different weapon types and helps you decide which one you like most. But eventually, you'll want to pick a type of weapon and stick with it for a while. No one wants to raid with the rogue who changes his weapons every time something new and shiny drops, and then spends the rest of the instance going "lol sword skill 230" and whacking at trash while the actual sword rogues and fury warriors who lost the roll seethe in anger and plot how to make him autofollow them off a cliff. So here's a quick guide to the types of weapons out there for rogues, their ideal specs, their plusses and their minuses.
Daggers: When people think rogues, they think daggers. It's the one weapon rogues start out knowing how to use, and three of our most lethal abilities -- Backstab, Ambush, and Mutilate -- require their use. Some dagger rogues believe rogues who use other weapons are wanna-be fury warriors, and that "real rogues use daggers." This is kind of silly, as other weapons can be just as good or better in many settings. Do all orc warriors use axes? Do all paladins swing big maces? Then all rogues shouldn't have to use daggers. Although I agree that skinny undead or elf rogues dual-wielding giant swords or maces look like they're about to fall on their faces.
- Plusses: Daggers are required for the opening move Ambush, which is able to knock off a large portion of a mob's health right off the bat; Backstab, the main damage-dealer for many rogues; and Mutilate, which can be an amazing damage spec for both PVE and PVP in the right situations. Daggers are generally faster than swords and can apply poisons quicker. There's often less competition for daggers than for swords and maces, particularly since they are widely considered to go to rogues first. Combat dagger and mutilate rogues can do insane DPS in raids, and daggers provide a greater variety of options for damage than swords. The assassination tree's high combo point generation makes stunning a breeze.
- Minuses: Grinding efficiently is an enormous pain, since to backstab or mutilate you have to be behind the target, which doesn't exactly work well with soloing. The dagger rogue compensates by either stunning the target befor moving to its back or giving up and using inefficient Sinister Strikes. I do the latter, but then again, I'm amazingly lazy when soloing. In groups, the positioning factor means that trash mobs are more difficult for you than for sword rogues. In a Mutilate build, constantly reapplying poisons can be annoying, and your DPS hits the ground on mobs that are immune to poison (like elementals.) All your memories of fighting bosses will be of staring at their butt.
- Examples of Specs: Combat Mutilate, Combat Daggers, Shadowstep, PVP Mutilate, Combat Shiv, Seal Fate Premed.
Swords: Sword rogues are very common in Azeroth, and indeed, combat swords (with a smattering of combat daggers) seems to be a build of choice for the top guilds. The main move of choice for most PVE sword rogues is Sinister Strike, with Slice and Dice used as a finisher. Combat skills like Adrenaline Rush and Blade Flurry add a little variety to swordfighting. Some rogues enjoy Hemo specs, although they're not as powerful as they used to be.
- Plusses: Many rogues now believe that combat swords is the best spec for both raiding and arena. You don't have to worry as much about positioning as dagger rogues, although you should still be behind the enemy. The bonus for sword specialization in the combat tree can be powerful if it procs (and it's currently bugged so that mainhand attacks can proc off offhand sword hits!) Grinding is much less difficult with swords than daggers, since you don't have to constantly stun and run behind mobs. You can do good damage on mobs that are immune to poisons, unlike Mutilate builds.
- Minuses: 2222232222232222279 ... also known as this spec can get boring in raids. Since you're just Sinister Striking and most of your combo points will go towards keeping Slice and Dice up (or Rupturing), you don't see a lot of variety. Many people prefer the passive crit bonus of fist weapons or dagger spec over the procs of sword and mace spec in the Combat tree. Warriors and hunters who believe that "daggers go to rogues first" generally don't feel the same about swords. In the early dungeon and raid instances at 70, there are better daggers than swords available. Hemo usually falls behind combat and mutilate specs in raid DPS.
- Examples of Specs: Combat Swords, Hemo, Seal Fate Combat Swords, Seal Fate Hemo.
Fist weapons: Fist weapons work basically the same as swords, except that instead of the chance to proc an extra hit in Sword Spec, you get a passive 5 percent increase in crit chance. Fist weapon and mace specs are usually the same as swords, with any points in Sword Spec diverted into the appropriate weapon.
- Plusses: The ease and white damage of swords, plus extra crits instead of an unreliable proc!
- Minuses: Same as swords, mostly. Good luck finding two good fist weapons. (There are a lot more in Burning Crusade than there were before, though.) Your guildmates will make fisting jokes.
- Specs: Combat Fists, all Hemo builds.
Maces: Finally, we have maces, probably the least popular of all rogue weapons. Maces work a little more like swords than fists -- mace spec is also proc-based, as full mace spec gives you a 5 percent chance to stun your enemy for three seconds on a hit. Mace spec also increases your skill with maces.
- Plusses: Same as swords and fists, and the stuns can be killer in PVP. The crafted blacksmithing maces are also very nice.
- Minuses: You can't stun bosses, so mace spec falls behind sword spec in PVE raiding. Like with fists, there's a lack of high-end itemization.
- Specs: Combat Maces, all Hemo builds.
So what should you choose? Really, you've got to try it out for yourself and see what you like. I know dagger rogues who feel bored to pieces every time they've tried a sword, and sword or fist rogues who feel frustrated with daggers. I am currently combat mutilate spec, but intend to go combat daggers as soon as I get a decent fast offhand. I know I should go swords, since that's the popular thing to do right now, but I treasure my memories of dashing around dragons in BWL to find the right spot too much to go swords. Plus, the three levels I spent using fist weapons may have been more efficient, but I like the versatility combat daggers offers.
Rogues, what weapon do you use? What do you think the positives and negatives of different weapons are?
Filed under: Rogue, (Rogue) Encrypted Text






Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
Tinwhisker Jun 27th 2007 11:53AM
Combat Swords here (19/42/0), I crank the damage meters in raids and can grind well enough but appear to be behind the dagger builds when it comes to PvP.
I may have good damage but the combo point generations is very slow and fast combo points are a huge advantage in PvP.
Erica Olson Jun 27th 2007 12:03PM
I use both sword and dagger. I skilled up both while leveling so that I could use either at will.
I've found it difficult to find decent weapon drops though. And the ones that are dropping in Outlands or for quest rewards - caster stuff. Unless I'm just not looking in the right place.
conqor Jun 27th 2007 12:04PM
im still on the fence. Im into the subtlety tree for shadow step and into the combat for mis. crap. I think i may need to switch it up cause id rather pve at this point. Daggers is what ive almost always used. I hate having to spend gold to try new builds.
Puhase Jun 27th 2007 12:26PM
I use Combat Swords as well. I'd rather be bored sometimes than supremely frustrated with being unable to find a good position to dps. I did the daggers thing for almost a year in MC, BWL and AQ and that was definitly enough.
I thought I would also toss a fist build out you may want to include.
Seal Fate/Fists.
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=wheboE0oVZGci00VzVzho
It takes the passive crit bonus and gets a little extra juice out of it with extra combo points from Seal Fate. And all the while you still do excellent white damage. Basically, you are swapping out more specials from Combat Potency and getting more High Point finishers from Seal Fate, as well as a little extra poison damage on the side.
Shiro Jun 27th 2007 12:34PM
My spec has largely depended on two variables.
1) What my character is currently doing.
2) What weapons I have available.
I began as a Hemo rogue, mostly because I could get great Hemo weapons easily as I leveled, plus I could buy some top-flight weapons at level 50+ in order to be a good DPS class in the end-game. I found that I liked the spec, mainly because it was positionless, and because it enabled me to have a good 2nd role in the party (Imp. Sap for CC, or chain stunning to tank casters).
When I started raiding, I still topped the damage meter competitions. Mainly because our other rogues were all SF noobs, or they were rocking some seriously craptastic weapons. We even had a few raiding rogues that were specced deep Sub, without hemo. ^.-
Anyway, as the specced to more sane specs, and got geared out I started falling behind a bit. I managed to get very lucky on one "old content" MC raid and scored Gutgore and Perd's on the same night (only rogue on the run). With two decent daggers I needed a respec fast, and ended up as combat daggers for most of my raiding career.
With BC on the horizon, I went Mutilate for leveling mainly because I couldn't bear to give up my daggers on a spec switch. Mutilate got me to 66, but I hated the positioning requirements for grinding. It *was* fast, and I hardly ever took damage, but it felt clunkey.
I ended up switching to combat fists for a bit, but that also felt a bit *muddy* to me. CPs weren't building very fast, and I seemed to take too much damage per mob I was grinding.
In the end, I got it decided for me when I got a good slow MH drop and respecced to Hemo again to take advantage of it. I'm on the verge of hitting 70, so I'll probably respec a few times at max level once I find some better weapons to replace my fists. The beauty of hemo is that I'm not locked into a weapon type just yet, so I can take what I want for upgrades and then shoehorn into a spec later.
Nasaug Jun 27th 2007 1:01PM
Im currently combat dagger (16/41/4), and with 2 decent daggers from karazhan, plus average Karazhan/GL gear, i usually beat swordrogues with similar eq in damage.
As a sidenote: I've tried both sword and fist specs (with very nice weapons), and i still believe combat dagger is the win :)
I also did some arena for a while, using both arena-fist weapons with an adrenaline rush/preparation spec. Loads of fun if you play 2v2 together with another rogue with the same spec :)
Horixon Jun 27th 2007 12:46PM
It's great to have a rogue section. I have been playing a hunter and a pally for two years. I finally decided to switch to a rogue, and I haven't looked back. So all of these tips and specs are great as I level up. I look forward to reading more
Caramin Jun 28th 2007 7:56AM
I've always been a dagger rogue through and through. It's just so much more versatile in my opinion.
In ZG/MC/BWL raids the sword spec rogues (assassination build mostly) were constantly ahead on damage but with the new BC content and gear most rogues on my server seem to have daggers and are seriously pwning the other classes in dps.
I'm combat 15/41/5 build and use two epic daggers obtained easily in BC from rep with factions, specifically the one from the Scryers and the one from the Consortium, both fast daggers and I spec for AP and crit. I'm usually top of the dmgmeters :)
I'd hate to go swords and lose backstab!
Balasan Jun 27th 2007 1:31PM
mmm regardless of your weapon, in PvE raid situations rogues should be behind the mobs (or at their sides) to remove parries and blocks... It's not unique to dagger rogues, that memory of bosses' butts thing.
AndyF Jun 27th 2007 1:37PM
I took blacksmithing to 375 and until recently used a Tier 2 BS mace with either blackout truncheon (for extra proc chance grinding) or latro's shifting sword when raiding. DPS was ok.
Then I lucked out and won Blinkstrike clearing trash on the way to Curator, and my DPS is quite a bit higher despite the lower MH damage - even without Windfury I've lucked out and had 4 extra attacks off one hit, which is just incredible.
I doubt I would go sword spec otherwise until I deep into SSC / Tempest Keep, as the Mace is a much harder hitter.
Paw Jun 27th 2007 1:50PM
Having been handed my backside by just about every rogue on my server (rogues are my bane for some reason)I think that all rogues should be restricted to "Soft Butter-sticks of Squishiness". That would be OK with me. You want to be able to sneak around unnoticed. Bonk me on the head in town while I am trying to check my mail, AND you want dangerous weapons too?
drakar Jun 27th 2007 2:57PM
Yep, no matter what spec you are as a rogue, you'll be looking at monster butt your whole career.
I've tried most of the assassination combat builds. Never done much sublety. In terms of dagger builds, mutilate is a lot of fun. CP generation is insane.
However, I'm 19/42/0 combat swords right now. This was the spec I was using for leveling when I hit 60. And for grinding netherwing rep it was great. Still top of the damage charts in Kara. Blade flurry and combat potency are awesome. Not too bad in arenas either. Can't wait for my s2 swords.
zerorez Jun 27th 2007 2:22PM
Combat fists, with 5 pts in swords 16/45/0
And why would any sane person do that? Pvp.
Yep, the crit chance of combat fists is great for PVP and grinding, but when I want to PVP I want non crit damage, I want dots and I want lots of AP and Stamina. So I just throw on my swords, change gear a bit and no more resilience damage reduction, as my crit chance goes to hell, and my AP with buffs gets up to 2200 in my 5v5. Since we aren't going to be doing the black temple anytime soon it will be nice to get a 97 dps weapon for literally getting drunk and stabbing people with friends on vent for an hour.
Thanks blizz!
=)
Siorra Jun 27th 2007 2:38PM
I'm a dagger Rogue with a bit of a wierd talent tree (30/26/5). Although grinding doesn't go by as quickly with daggers, I find if you can time your Gouges and KS's then you'll do just fine, plus I seem to take less damage than a sword Rogue. Although it's not great for PvP, it does it's job, and I get CP's rather fast, so stunning work a charm. And for PvE, well, my dps is enough to say the least.
rick gregory Jun 27th 2007 2:39PM
For levelling the most efficient build is Combat. Feel free to try other things (esp if you're levelling with a pal), but from 1-58 no other build is really as efficient in XP/hour since you get away from positioning requirements.
Given the current combat mechanics for rogues this means that you want a high damage weapon in your main hand and a fast weapon (to apply poisons) in your offhand. Since high damage ranges usually mean slower weapon speed, daggers are out for levelling - Combat Daggers is great for raiding, but the positioning makes it less than optimal for levelling, esp soloing.
At least on my realm swords are MUCH easier to find that other weapons of similar stats, so what this meant for me was a sword MH and a dagger OH for most of 1-58. at 60 Mutilate becomes much more viable, and you start getting a lot more options in weapons. In fact, I think 60-70 is a great time to play with other specs and weapon choices since you're still likely soloing, but you might also be running instances (you SHOULD be for the gear). This gives you the chances to see what you like and even if you go back to Combat for endgame, you'll be a better rogue.
Oh... and at 70 DO ARENA. The Arena weapons are so far beyond anything else you can get in Heroics and Kara that it's not even funny. I'll move from the best blue sword OH in the game (Latro's Shifting Sword) at 72dps, to the arena OH at 98dps. In 3 weeks. For a couple of hours per week.
vley Jun 27th 2007 2:58PM
Daggers, no contest there. Especially the combat sort for raiding. And especially raiding on a pvp server...
You should be behind mob anyway no matter what to avoid cleaves and other cone attacks. And to not be able to use a third of your rogue abilities because of a certain weapon? No thanks. Not having poison applications go on fast? Another No thanksx2. The 222223222223 button spam is the most boring thing on the face of the earth. Which is why most casual players who don't like figuring out combos or stuns pick this spec. It doesn't take much effort or skill to do so.
Sword spec rogues don't come close to our dagger kin in kara, ssc, tempest keep raids on the meters. Yeah blinkstrikes look cool,
and have that cool proc. But no thanks, if you're a hardcore rogue your into daggers.
I will say that for leveling, sword/macefist are better for survivability.
But I leveled 1-70 on daggers and it was no problem. If you know your rogue stun timing right, you'll just get better and better in pvp by practicing it on mobs.
I know I'll piss some people off saying all of this , but hey its my opinion, i've tried every spec and weapon set available... and to the grave will say that you're not a real rogue unless you bare daggers.
rick gregory Jun 28th 2007 2:22AM
Raid damage is boring. Daggers, Swords, Fists, Maces... it's boring. I mean, in raids with daggers what are you doing most of the time? Backstab, Backstab, Backstab... this is more innovative than SS, SS, SS?
Heck it's boring for DPS casters too... the fun comes from fights that aren't simple tank and spank and from dealing with situations that arise during longer fights.
Weapon-wise, you simply HAVE to get the Arena weapons at 70. 97 dps MH and OHs? That are better than anything pre-SSC? Um... yes please.
Sirg Jun 28th 2007 3:02AM
I use both swords and daggers. The swords (main hand) is better for PvE and even instances imo, while the daggers are best for PvP. Because of my experience in playing the rogue I made a build that fits my playstyle, which is combat and sub. Riposte is great for solo PvE or instances (it was so cool when I disarmed Herod), adr rush and blade furry grants huge dps potential, but I also wanted Preparation (after adr rush and blade furry are gone, hit prep and do it again.. works great on bosses with a good tank)
I think the maces and claws are less popular because there are scarce and you can't get decent ones even from quest rewards. Besides, the mace isn't really a rogue's weapon, and the fist weapons look plain (except for a few high lvl or pvp rewards)
Flake Jun 28th 2007 8:33AM
Im currently leveling a rogue assasination spec. Very nice tree if you want +crit% and very fast Combo-points... Im currently using a dagger MH and a sword OH since this morning (i live in the EU:p) and I must say that my DPS has been going up quite a bit. I was faced with the question though of "should i keep DW 2 daggers or MH dagger and OH sword?" wanted to try something new and see bigger procs!
rick gregory Jun 28th 2007 3:56PM
Hmmm Two fast daggers isn't optimal for Combat daggers (you give up damage compared to a harder hitting MH), but if it works, go for it. Of course if you're specced Mut, you really want 2 slow, hard hitting daggers.
Dagger MH and Sword OH is backwards... your OH will apply poisons more slowly and the larger damage isn't really an adv in the OH.
Remember... Combat means higher damage MH, faster OH... Mut is high damage for both, speed of the OH being relatively unimportant.
But hey - if it's fun, play it!