We've become carebears in Shattrath
by Mike Schramm 
Jul 18th 2007 at 3:46PM
Arrianae has a great point over on the forums: since when did Outland take the war out of Warcraft? Remember all that blood spilled on the Crossroads? Remember the massacres that took place at Southshore, or the daily incursions at Orgrimmar and Stormwind. STV ganking is legendary, and BRD used to have skeletons all over it. So why is it that, in Shattrath, Horde and Alliance are suddenly buddy-buddy?The answer, says Nethaera, is that there are bigger foes to worry about in Outland, the Burning Legion definitely not the least of them. There is some good PvP to be found in Outland, although the Auchindouin nodes are usually just grabbed rather than conquered. But while Halaa in Nagrand is covered with the entrails of both sides, you still get the feeling that there, we're just fighting for a turn-in vendor. It's fun, but it doesn't have the epic, original Warcraft flavor that was so sweet in Azeroth.
I think what players want is some good old Orcs and Humans combat. Before Burning Crusade, we were asking for more World PvP, and we definitely got it-- from HFP to Zangarmarsh to Auchindouin, there are tons of ways to fight the other faction, and tons of reasons to do it. But no amount of standing around in a PvP objective feels better than sticking pointy end of sword into enemy, and that kind of ruthless attack is what players miss.
Filed under: Analysis / Opinion, Virtual selves, PvP, Raiding
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
Burgdorn Jul 18th 2007 4:12PM
hmmm I think in all honesty that not all players honestly want that all out bloodshed, and there is proof in the way many have gone to extra "heights" to avoid unwanted skirmishes. The proud and few that want to clank metal versus metal tend to find that they may get a little bit but never enough of a stand off that makes their lust feel sated.
If the horde of players really wanted an all out skirmish then they could just continually try and hold Halaa through losses and near victories. That just isn't what we see though, if a victory doesn't seem within someone's grasp there is better ways to slaughter masses. As to how to fix this, that is a different story.
You would have to make some pretty interesting changes to the rewards offered by the PvP groups within all the outland zones first off, something that would be time consuming yet also enticing enough to legitimate the actions of pure in outlands. Possibly there could be some item sets that are epic and have great stats on them but the only people capable of repairing said armor are the vendors who you bought them off of with PvP tokens.
I think that would probably be a great way of having continual battle in PvP, armor with limited durability factors being that once it is broke the only one who can fix it is the one who made it. They would probably charge a hefty amount of PvP tokens for their group too.
What Blizzard needs is ideas that would encourage continual investment in all of the PvP in outlands. Yeah lvl 70 epics with limitations like those stated would work... going to the suggestion forums.
Burgdorn out.
Coherent Jul 18th 2007 4:21PM
I agree that players want more conflict ( I know I do ) although I'm not sure it needs to be Orcs versus Humans. Anyone versus Anyone sounds good to me, as long as it stirs the blood and provides plenty of pathos.
My pet peeve about the PVP is that the horde faction is "evil" and the alliance is "good". Why can't we have any horde epic costumes with angel wings coming out of the back or alliance pvp epics with twisted demon horns and hellish glows erupting from every orifice?
It doesn't have to be good versus evil. "Us versus Them" is just fine and dandy, thanks.
Lokse Jul 18th 2007 4:28PM
If you've not yet been griefed for hours by allies/horde while trying to do your daily quest, then you need to get out of Shattrath more often. PVP is alive and well, and the only time I don't kill someone is when I think it will get me killed, either immediately or in the near future. Almost everyone I know is the same.
futura Jul 18th 2007 4:29PM
I honesty think this topic is the number one reason.. that burning crusade ruined WoW. I've felt this way since the day i've hit 70. Yeah outland is cool, but for me it ruined the magic and fun of Azeroth. Yeah, I'm still progressing through my end game raiding guild to this day, I still play the game. But for me, WoW was much more fun and special the way it was in the old world.
Yeah sure not everyone wants random organized world pvp, look at comment number 1, but that's why there are pve servers. With all the rep grinds, token collecting, endless daily quests, and other stuff to prevent everyone from finishing everything.... Blizzard has made everything more
/wave instead of autoattack with the expansion. Sad but true.
I don't know if its entirely cause they've moved the playing field away from outland, the armory system of knowing everyone's gear, or a series of things. One thing is for sure though. It's lost a lot of it's magic to me.
stapleboy Jul 18th 2007 4:33PM
Agreed. I don't have a problem with Shattrath itself, as I'd rather not be chain-sapped by some jackass standing by the mailbox. I think the problem is flying mounts. The mechanic was a great idea and I love soaring around, but flying mounts are like a griefer's dream come true. See a level 66 fighting half a dozen things? Drop out of the sky and two-shot him. Something resembling a fair fight? Fly off unscathed or float there until the standard 3-1 Alliance Combat Ratio is in your favor.
I'm not sure how Blizzard could balance it best, but I think something should be in place aside from pure stun/slow/CC immunity for anyone off the ground.
Hank Jul 18th 2007 4:44PM
This just proves once again that the official forums are fun of morans.
Points to you if you get the intentional misspelling.
john Jul 18th 2007 4:43PM
i play on a pve server because that is what my rl friends were on. however i always have my pvp gear and if i see someone flagged i item rack into my gear and charge away. just yesterday i kill an entire party because they summoned to ramparts and one of their party was flaged after they buffed i cut lose feared their whole party the rogue got mc of the edge the warrior got dotted the hunter quickly followed the rogue and the priest got mb swd i dropped shadow form and smitted him to dead.
it was fun to and hey when there warlock came through i died. but is so rare that you see people flagged they are to busy with pve for pvp and the bg just get old. i have only played for 5 months but the bg's are already old to me.
Urthona Jul 18th 2007 4:50PM
How about entering Shattrath autoflags you for PVP, but actually fighting the opposing faction(ie accidentally rightclicking) would result in Shatt guards coming in to "peacekeep".
Mass chaos.
= PVP goodness?
On the other hand, it would certainly make visiting Shattrath a more interesting place, and a LOT more care would be done to use the vendors in LC/Aldor/Scryerville. I think a LOT of people would rush to change their hearths back to IF to avoid the headache.
Tyrianus Jul 18th 2007 6:28PM
I think the reason why you aren't seeing the normal crossroads/southshore bloodbaths in outland is the simple fact that you don't have easy to kill NPCs in Shatrath. Where as the "fun" thing for alliance to do is go wipe the NPCs in Crossroads over and over again until some high level horde show up to wipe them, you can't do that in Shatrath. As such most people that are in Shatrath are either there to play the BC content for the first or fifteenth time, or they are there to try to sell items to members of their faction. I think the other thing that may keep people from attacking is the fact that there is no "3:1 ratio" as mentioned above. When Allies go into XR they know that there will be no hordies there to challenge them until the word gets out and they can sit and pretend to be the "all powreful alliance" by wiping NPCs and the PCs around (or PCs that try to do something on PVE server) that are all 40 - 50 levels beneath them. Until around expansion 5 when the level cap is 100 or such I doubt you'll see anyone doing any PVP in Shatrath, because the Allies don't seem to be willing to fight in cities or areas until they are at least 30 to 40 levels higher.
Scruffy Jul 18th 2007 5:03PM
Carebears..?
Well, I blame the Scryer/Aldor rift. I say that once you choose a side, you can do a massive chain quest to learn the other (horde/ally) side's language. This could set the stage for later quest chains to switch sides or become neutral (and able to attack either side >:D).
But the PvPness is kinda gimped. Hellfire forts are once a day quest. Now if capturing them held it for your side for oh, 20 minutes but during that time you're constantly flagged? I don't know.. it's nice having something you could solo (provided there's no opposition) but something like a Halaa battle would be quite fun. The Spirit Towers are nice but could be better. There's no tangible benefit in capturing them whereas Halaa gets you closer vendors (they really should add a mailbox and bank there... THAT would be worth fighting over) and hellfire fort gets you tokens for the quest AND kills.
Krianna Jul 18th 2007 5:52PM
Wait... let me savor this moment.... "Waaaah! I can't grief in one and only one small area in Outlands! Waaaah! Under the metaphorical nose of hugely powerful beings who can force folks who were at war to live peacefully inside of the city, I can't one-shot a lowbie and vanish! Woe is me!"
Arcanivus Jul 18th 2007 5:53PM
@#1
That idea should really be submitted on the suggestions forum. I'd love to see a system that prolongs the life of a PvP objective without just handing out more gear. Making something fully functional would be great. Granted, it's just another grind, but repairing PvP armor with PvP tokens makes a lot of sense to me.
Crypt King Jul 18th 2007 6:29PM
@Krianna
Yeah, I'll subscribe to your newsletter. It's as bad as the guy who wanted you to be able to be griefed in flight and force you to spirit res.
Krianna Jul 18th 2007 6:37PM
Tyrianus- well said. No idea if anyone will listen, but well said!
Crypt King- I'll send you a comp copy of the first one I publish. ;^)
I play on an RP/PVP server for the honor aspect-- not that little number thing, but actual honor. Griefers make me sorry for their ignorance. (Hur hur! Der R gud reason 4 pali 2 kill sum1 fighting demon, then no fight demon! Hur!)
Pzychotix Jul 18th 2007 7:17PM
@12: You can't PVP in Shattrath at all, even if you wanted to.
@Everyone else: L2Lore.
RandomSomething Jul 18th 2007 8:16PM
If you are engaged in PVP just outside Shattrath and the battle enters the Shattrath territory...will it automatically cancel the PVP battle?
Druid dude Jul 18th 2007 11:03PM
It makes my skin crawl having to share the capital city with a bunch of perfume wearing alliance sissys.
Juliah Jul 18th 2007 10:15PM
Mike Schramm said:
"I think what players want is some good old Orcs and Humans combat."
This statement is inaccurate. You could say "I think what some players want," or "I think what many players want," but you cannot imply that all players want this because it's simply not true.
I never PvP. Ever. It holds no appeal for me whatsoever, and I'm not alone: my guild doesn't PvP.
I typically enjoy your posts, Mike, but sweeping generalizations like the one I cited are a pet peeve of mine. Perhaps it's the technical writer in me.
Anna Jul 18th 2007 11:08PM
Not every player wants some more PvP. I leveled 1-60 on a PvP server. Still I become nervous to go to BRD, STV or Redridge. 30-45 was x3 longer than 50-60 because like every 3 steps some level 60 jerk would gank me in STV. By 45 I decided give up and go to WPL. At that time at least I dying from the mobs. So now I am enjoying very much to play on a PvE server.
@5 - I agree, flying mounts are terrible! But my experience is trying to cap Halaa (67 pali wearing greens and some blues) and there are at least 3 but usually 4-6 lv 70 in Gladiator gear who will wait above and watch for my res to drop down and two-shot me every time I res. On my server you can't find an Alli group for Halaa because Horde always are flying above it to wait for some easy kill. Usually they will wait above the spirit healer too. >.> That is not a fun and fair fight.
Junzim Jul 19th 2007 5:59AM
Personally, on Defias Brotherhood (an RP-PVP server) we've always had more World PvP than anywhere else (back in the day it was the server's main claim to fame).
The WPvP had died down a bit with TBC but recently a few Alliance guilds started up their raids on Tristfall again.
In response the Horde rallied together to raid every Alliance major city, taking down many of the Alliance's leader NPCs.
Seeking vengeance the Alliance has taken it upon themseves to assault Horde cities, although with little success. Cairne Bloodhoof, the softest-target of the Horde (although TB is hard to get into against a well formed defense) has been attacked repeatedly this past week but every time the invaders have been beaten back.
Both the Horde and the Alliance enjoy the prestige of never having had a few of their faction bosses die in the entire history of the server.
Let's hope the current wave of reciprocal violence continues in Azeroth throughout this expansion pack, if anything the Shattrath portals have been instrumental in bringing people into the fight swiftly.