Leave the guild, take the loot
by Elizabeth Wachowski 
Jul 21st 2007 at 1:30PM
There's an interesting ethical debate (yeah, I know) going on on the WoW General Forum. Null of Nazjatar asks, "If I have lots of dkp and am looking to leave the guild, should I spend it before i gquit?"
A lot of people piped up with opinions on both sides. On one hand, DKP is the "pay" you get for raiding, and the effort you put in should be rewarded. If you put in notice to leave a job, you still get to spend the money you earned, right? On the other hand, blowing your DKP on items that other want and then leaving for a better guild can be seen as unethical. Not only are you leaving your teammates high and try, you took items that could help compensate for your loss and brought them to another guild. I've been present at a few surprise /gquits that took place immediately after a raid where the quitter bid on items, and it's always left a sour taste in my mouth.
I can see both sides here, so I went to my first recourse in WoW debates: my guild. After I reassured them that I was not planning on /gquitting after Kara, six of six people who responded said it was the right of the /gquitter to spend their DKP on upgrades before leaving. Ebolah, a mildly insane officer who is working on five-boxing his third one-class team to 70, put it this way: "If you raid with the guild and earn DKP, you have earned it and should be able to spend it and be rewarded for the time you put in, leaving or not." A warlock, Zorgan, said: "Morally? Probably not, but eh ... I'd bet most people would. I think the simple solutilon is to forward all loots to me. Forever."
Personally, I've never been faced with /gquitting in a raiding guild, so I don't know what I'd do. If I had to guess, I'd probably stop showing up for raids after I'd made the decision to leave, and thus wouldn't have an opportunity to blow my DKP. Is it ethical for someone to blow their DKP if they've already decided to leave the guild?
Filed under: Items, Virtual selves, Guilds, Raiding
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
Tekworm Jul 21st 2007 1:45PM
If you know youre going to gquit, forgo your DKP...do the honorable thing and say goodbye and be on your way
rick gregory Jul 21st 2007 1:59PM
I don't think there's one answer. it depends on whether you're spending your DKP on things that will genuinely upgrade you, why you're leaving the guild, whether you're taking great loot or minor stuff...
Yes, the DKP are earned. But it's also assumed that you'll spend then on things that will really help you and that the additional capabilities on your toon will then help the raid. If you've not been spending DKP, why not? Are you already outfitted really well? In that case leave the DKP there. Are you leaving for good reasons (you're goals are a bit different than your current guild) or are you leaving due to drama?
If you care about your rep, do the thing that you would want someone else to do if t hey were leaving. If you'd think 'Man, that was a jerk move' if someone else did what you're about to do, don't do it... unless you're a jerk.
Lori Jul 21st 2007 2:00PM
IMO it might be guild dependent. When mine was running ZG, AQ20 and MC, everything not BoP and claimed during a raid, including mats like core leather, went to the guild bank. Unclamined BoPs were DEed and the shards went to the bank. At one point they tried keeping ZG coins for the guild bank. This left precious little for the rest of us to get and sell or whatever.
The rationale was that they need the money and mats to equip whoever they deceided need upgrades. They never disclosed who got what upgrades. I asked the GM a few times if I could use DKP to buy mats from the guild bank but never got an answer.
In this situation I would have taken whatever I could get (probably nothing) and not felt at all bad about it.
Junzim Jul 21st 2007 2:20PM
I've been in this situation before. I was raiding with a coalition and was top of the DKP. I'd raided before and had helped them with a few of their strats from my own experience on other servers. At that point I'd spent 0 DKP and earned no items for all the hours I'd put into helping them.
I was then accepted into a raiding guild and when the coalition got wind of this, they decided that my DKP was null and void. Why? Because the 1 or 2 drops I would have gotten would have retarded the progress of the raid.
Put this into perspective. It's a 40 man raid which had almost downed Onyxia. 55 active raiders. Was it worth kicking one man before he'd managed to claim anything for the work he'd put in?
In conversations I had with the raid leaders (and subsequently Screenshotted) they were very clear - they knew they were screwing me over and apologized for it, claiming they had to do it "for the good of the raid".
That's the problem really, when guilds/raids overlook the fact that they are composed of INDIVIDUALS, players who put their free time into something.
I joined a much more fun guild who are very competent in the Endgame (although I pretty much only PvP now) who have never cut anyone out or left them high and dry.
They run Zero Sum DKP which affords people the chance to actually screw them over by spending DKP they haven't earned yet, but they've never actually been deserted or ripped off. Why? Because they're not slaves to the machine and view their guild members and raiders as people and in return those members treat their guildmates with respect.
So in short: Don't be a dick and don't think that the mystical 'Raid' is a higher being which must be revered - it's a game and if people aren't having fun then you're playing it wrong. Instances reset every week, in-game relationships don't.
Shalkis Jul 21st 2007 4:15PM
If your DKP system doesn't allow you to go into negative, I say that you're free to spend your DKP as you wish. However, unless you really want to burn your bridges, I'd advise against bidding on stuff that would net you only a void crystal. Your guild bank (assuming that you can spend DKP to get stuff from it) is fair game, though.
Seper Jul 21st 2007 2:41PM
According to my OLD guild. Anyone who leaves with an epic earned from raiding is a *insert bad names here for as long as the above post*
My old guild had a bunch of people that were reallll aholes. I stopped being invited to kara because of these people. (since they were guild masters pretty much). After 2 months of not seeing kara I left for that and mannnyyy other reasons. But the number one complaint those people had was I left with the epics.
I never missed a raiding night for 3 months. 3 times a week. 4 hours easy each night. I was there wayyy more then all of them had been. But I was still considered a jerk for "taking all our epics".
So.. spend your DKP. You earned it. Its not fair for you to put in all that time and effort. Because if you didn't spend it they would still be mad at that one epic you did grab 2 months ago.
Beaverius Jul 21st 2007 5:04PM
You know, it is a pretty touchy subject. I'm hardly a loot whore, but I have to vote for the SPEND IT category.
I know that it is a complicated issue. It just makes you look like a dick if you dump your DKP and then /gquit but there are any number of situations where that can happen with no ninja intended. Similarly one may argue that since you earned the points, you are free to spend them as you wish. As much as I would hate to agree with this for someone who spends their DKP and Gquits, I would prolly do the same. What the hell were all those hours for? If I'm g quitting, it's not because im a ninja, it's because my guildies are retarded and I sure as hell want what I've worked hard for, esp with a group of tards.
But of course if I were one of the guildies thought to be a tard, I prolly would be upset but what can you do. It's a system you made and there is no moral-o-meter, being a server leper will take care if that though
Tekkub Jul 21st 2007 3:38PM
I hate DKP, it's a flawed system, even when done carefully. People proport it as "fair" but it is not. If player x raids more than player y, he will earn more DKP. He will get more chances to bid on the items he wants. Eventually he will get all the items he wants from a zone. Then what happens? He keeps earning DKP. He gets to stockpile so he is nearly guarenteed any item he wants in the future. That's not right.
Take the 5-mans as an example. Pretend your guild "raids" those, without a DKP system. You all start with ST. After a few weeks, the guy who's always there has gotten every item he could want from the zone. Now since there's DKP what happens? He's now just running to help out the other guildmates who don't have all their gear. That's the way it should be. This percieved 'need' to reward a player for every minute of their time goes against the core ideal of a guild. Yes, players should get recognized, yes they should have a good chance to get the items they need. But they aren't coming just for a damn paycheck, there's a point where you go just to help out a guildmate because he's a guildmate, not for the loot, or potential of loot in the future.
Would you award DKP to member who ran alts through low level instances? No, that's nuts! So why award DKP to the player who comes on raids where they are not intending to get gear?
Rich Jul 21st 2007 3:42PM
If you earned the DKP, you earned the right to buy what you want with it. If you plan to leave and aren't letting people know, then buy the stuff in advance, raid a couple times and leave. Once the epics have been purchased, they are property of the purchaser. Up to that point, they are guild property.
andrea Jul 21st 2007 3:50PM
It's yours to spend. I personally, wouldn't -- as it does seem rude to do. However, not every guild is sunshine and roses, most raiding guilds are not actually -- and I would not think ill of someone who left a guild they were unhappy with while spending their DKP that they earned and have just as much right to claim as anyone else.
Sterling Jul 21st 2007 5:13PM
From what I've heard/read in general chat (the "official" forums are a complete waste of time for that one line of goodness), most guilds on my server have abolished the DKP system and all its varieties since TBC came out. I'm assuming the logic is that most people have been playing long enough to be civil in their decisions to roll Need on something they can actually use. For BOE items, everybody rolls need; if somebody in the raid/group really wants the item, but lost the roll, they can make a deal with the winner after the run.
Also, the current implementation of the "guild bank" system is beyond flawed. All a guild master has to do is get pissed off one day, mail all the loot to their main character, and pay $25 to transfer to another server. There are no checks and balances.
So, a person choosing to spend the credit for their time and need for their class or role right before leaving, in my opinion, should be up to that player's discretion. Until there is some standard that measures points that can be transferred from guild to guild, like a 401(k) plan, there is no way for a player to transfer their time and effort from a hard core guild to a more casual guild, vice versa, or whatever reason they have to gquit. If such a system ever becomes "official" it will become as moot as the various pvp point rewards systems that Blizzard has already implemented.
CVJ Jul 21st 2007 5:36PM
@6 the way you explain DKP shows how it is fair. If someone raids more than someone else and you show up once in a while once most of the instance is on farm, is it fair that the person that was there for the wipes, spending gold and mats to learn the content have equal /roll as you who spends less time/mats/gold?
Reality is once people get the stuff they need and stop earning DKP in a perfect world that person would keep running it for the good of the guild but in reality it is rarely the case.
Some do but if someone was there the longest wants something mainly for bling, it is fair.
In the real world the person who works longer hours gets over time pay vs the guy who leaves at 40 hours is that fair they get more money when you put in less time?
CVJ Jul 21st 2007 5:46PM
I forgot to mention that now a days you can sideways upgrade your gear in other ways besides raiding that you can save your DKP or not worry about it and just discuss it amongst your raid.
This was a benefit of the smaller raid cap, back in the 40 man days raiding was the only way to improve your character so being greedy over loot was more common in my opinion.
Shadowisp Jul 21st 2007 8:35PM
I only play my main, most of people I know run two or three alts with thier DKP. Also I tend to be "whats best for the guild" and pass on a lot of stuff to help others gear up.... I usually end up being way above everyone else in the DKP in first place.
3 Guild Merge/Splits over 2 years and my DKP gets reset, even though its the same people I helped gear up I have to go back to equal footing with them... and it ticks me off big time.
I once tried to stay in a guild that split just to get my loot, I passed on a lot of stuff for the "benefit of the guild" was first in DKP owed 5 Epics from MC/BWL (and the person second was 3.5 epics below me)and I knew exactly which Epic drops I wanted too and I wanted them to pay up... but for 4 weeks nothing dropped, and the guild was getting on my nerves so I gave up and gquit.
About 3 days later, checked the DKP to have one last look at the wasted DKP... the log showed every item I wanted dropped in the last 2 days of MC/BWL @#&*$!!!
SaxxonPike Jul 22nd 2007 3:38AM
DKP is a horrible, horrible system. It generates obscene amounts of drama. My guild has since done away with it and we've been much better off.
Kaylek Jul 22nd 2007 11:48AM
You still earned the DKP. Spend it.
Rorlins the Dwarf Jul 22nd 2007 12:04PM
Spend it.
DKP is the equivalent of Guild Gold and it's not transferable. Unless your new guild is going to GIVE you the DKP you left behind, then it is yours to spend and you have an obligation to the system to spend it.
I mean would you turn around and Give Back stuff you got from loots on Guild Raids? You "earned" them as much as you "earned" your DKP. I pay into my 401 with my company. If I quit my job and take a new one, that 401 does not vanish with me; it's rolled into a new account with my new company.
DKP cannot "roll" between guilds so it has to be liquidated into the only kind of currency that travels between guilds. I suppose the only other option would be to offer a guild member a DKP buy out. They give you gold and you give them your DKP.
GamerJunkie Jul 22nd 2007 3:34PM
Don't be such lowlife nerds that think DKP should be spent on items that help the guild's progression. This is just a game for everyone to enjoy.
You pay $15/month, you are entitled to waste all the DKP you want. If a guild doesn't let you. Waste all your DKP and gquit immediately.
Then the guild can start looking at ways to retain people instead of being nazis.
Morthagrid Jul 23rd 2007 6:52AM
Why do all these forums assume you know every damned acronym. Some of us only speak English, so for gods sake some one tell this "noob" wtf is DKP? (yeah thought i'd call myself noob before someone else did even though i've played for 2 years)
yotix Jul 24th 2007 5:52AM
Erm.
"Is it ethical for people to spend their DKP ...?"
"Yes, that's why they earn them in the first place!"
Next question?