Encrypted Text: How to lrn2raid

You've made a rogue, leveled it to 70, and have managed to finagle yourself a rogue spot in a raiding guild, which in itself may have required bribes/blackmail/sexual favors. Now you're standing in front of Kara, Gruul's Lair or SSC, and you suddenly realize: I have no clue what I am doing.
Like every other class, the rogue raid game at 70 is dramatically different from how you played when leveling. You can't expect to jump right into the raid and top the damage meters. Young padawan, you must learn to raid. And we are here to help.
1. Come prepared. Yeah, showing up at the right place at the right time is a big part of raiding, but there's a lot more to being ready to raid than just being physically present. First of all, read up on the strategy for the boss you're facing. Asking "What does this boss do?", or worse, not asking and wiping the raid, is a good way to ensure you'll never be back in that instance. Take five minutes before the raid and check out Bosskillers or WoWWiki.
Another aspect of coming prepared is bringing consumables. For rogues, this means poisons/sharpening stones, battle elixirs, and healing potions at a minimum. You want to always keep a stack of Instant Poison, Deadly Poison, and Anesthetic Poison on you at all times, and I also bring all the other poisons in case the enemies are vulnerable to them. Good battle elixirs include Fel Strength Elixir, Onslaught Elixir and Elixir of Major Agility. I also bring Elixir of Major Fortitude, Insane Strength Potion and Haste Potion.
Your raid will also want you to download certain mods. Some form of boss mod and threatmeter is pretty much essential to fights nowadays -- I use Deadly and KTM, respectively, but there are many choices. Damage meters can be good if you want to compare your performance to other rogues, but can become the bane of raid groups if you get the "I'm topping the damage meters! I'm topping the damage meters!" attitude. There are a number of rogue-specific addons as well. Three worth mentioning are Slicer, which provides a visual timer for your Slice and Dice, PoisonPouch, which makes buying and applying poisons easy, and StunWatch, which can help you time your stuns on trash.
And finally, make sure you're personally prepared for the raid. Eat if you're hungry, drink if you're thirsty, finish your work or homework, close the naked picture website. I like to concentrate on the raid (and alt-tab out during breaks to read forums) -- however, the top rogue in my guild raids on speed and techno music and does great. Whatever enables you to have fun and do your best.
2. Get a decent raiding spec. "Decent raiding specs" include combat swords/fists/maces, combat daggers, and (against non-poison-immune bosses) mutilate. Generally, anything deep in the subtlety tree is not going to be great for raiding, although there are still some diehard hemo spec players. Combat is best for sustained DPS, as it benefits the most from gear upgrades and can also function as a pretty good PVP spec. Mutilate can work well if you have the gear for it, as mutilate crits can be sky-high, but the spec hits the dust when the boss is immune to poison.
Currently, combat swords is considered to be the build with the maximum potential DPS, but the combat swords playstyle isn't for everyone. I'm 15-41-5 combat daggers using the spec above, and I love my sustained damage, energy regen, and ability to hit Adrenaline Rush and Blade Flurry for those all-out-burn-down fights. If you have a spec idea, feel free to post it on the rogue forums and ask them for comments.
3. Know that you can do more than just damage. Specifically, you can stun, interrupt and poison. Stuns are invaluable when fighting hard-hitting trash mobs. Stunning trash can help keep your healers' mana up and your tanks alive. However, most tanks want to get a couple whacks in on the mob before you Cheap Shot it, unless you are utterly confident that you can either burn it down before it gets out of stunlock or tank it yourself. But if you have, say, an undergeared tank getting smacked for one-fourth of his health each time by a Kara mob, you might just want to step in and save the day. Stunlocking is easiest with a mutilate build, but even combat types can help out with the stuns if you have enough combo points at an opportune moment.
Interrupting spells is another important part of a rogue's job. A lot of trash mobs and even a few bosses (Shade of Aran, Magtheridon's channelers) have spells that need to be interrupted. Know when you're facing one of these mobs and put Kick on an easily-accessible hotkey. Many of these mobs cast spells quicker than your Kick cooldown will be up, so discuss who's going to stop what spells with your local other rogue/warrior/shaman. You don't want to kick a shadowbolt and then be caught with your pants down when the mob decides it's time to heal.
Poisons ... well, poisons serve many functions for a rogue. Instant Poison and Anesthetic Poison do direct damage. The latter should be used on aggro-sensitive fights, since its damage doesn't cause threat. Deadly Poison causes damage over time and stacks up to 5 times, and can be a nice way to keep dealing damage during any phase where you can't directly attack the mob. Crippling Poison slows the mob, which is excellent in PVP but doesn't often come in handy on boss fights. Mind-numbing Poison, which can slow the enemy's casting time by 60 percent, and Wound Poison, which can do damage and reduce healing effects on the enemy, are both excellent in certain situations -- however, most bosses are immune to these poisons. When they're not, though, the poisons do a great job. The channelers on Magtheridon are good examples of where to use these poisons.
4. Know where to be. You want to be behind your opponent at all times. If you're doing your damage through Backstab and Mutilate, the reason's pretty clear -- you can't use these abilities from the front. But even if you're swords, maces or fists, you should be behind the mob for a couple of reasons. First off, a lot of bosses cleave these days, and cleaves tend to be 180 degrees in front of the mob. Staying in the back will keep you from getting one-shotted by a nasty cleave. Secondly, mobs can parry attacks made from the front, but not from behind, so positioning yourself at the rear will increase your white damage. And finally, on most fights, it's easier for all the melee to stay together. That way, you can get chain healed and holy novaed, and if you notice all the other melee running away, it's a good sign that you should run away too.
Speaking of running away, most boss fights require some of that these days. The time of Ebonroc and Ragnaros is long past, and your bosses are likely to run around, AOE, or knock you into walls. Your boss mods should tell you when the boss is set to use certain abilities, so make sure which abilities require you to run (whirlwinds!), which require you to avoid other people (shatter!) and which require you to not move or your raid leader will hunt you down and kill you (flame wreath!)
5. Figure out the right finishing moves. You're going to be using Sinister Strike/Backstab/Mutilate most of the time, but there's still the question of what to do with your combo points. Out in the wilds of Azeroth, you probably spent them on Kidney Shots or Eviscerates, neither of which is ideal in a raiding environment. The most important thing for finishing moves is to always have Slice and Dice up. By increasing your attack speed, it increases your white damage and adds more to your DPS than any other finishing move. Each raiding spec -- combat swords/maces/fists, combat daggers, and mutilate -- has its own finisher rotations. The consensus seems to be:
Combat swords: 2pt Slice and Dice, 5 pt Rupture, repeat. If you have the two-piece Tier 4 bonus, do 1 pt Snd/5 pt Rupture. (In general, Rupture does more damage than Eviscerate.)
Combat daggers: 3 pt Slice and Dice, 5 pt Slice and Dice, 5 pt Rupture, repeat.
Mutilate: Depends, since the combo point generation is so much faster than combat. Always keep up Slice and Dice. If you have Vile Poisons and a stack of 5 Deadly Poisons on the target, Envenom can do quite a bit of damage since it ignores armor, although this is still up for debate. Spearmint of Gilneas suggests "Garrote, Mutilate, SnD if it was a crit, Mutilate again then SnD if it wasnt, Mutilate, Rupture if I'm at 4 points (probably not), Mutilate again then Rupture if not. Rinse and repeat." Mutilating again when you're at four combo points is a waste of one or two combo points.
6. Above all, learn. Learn from your class leader. Learn from the other rogues in your guild. Learn from rogues in rival guilds. Learn from the Armory. Learn from the forums. Learn from Shadowpanther's gear chart. If your DPS is lacking, ask what you can do to improve before someone tells you you need to improve. If someone does tell you you need to improve, listen to what they say.
What other advice would you give to raiding rogues?
Filed under: Rogue, Raiding, (Rogue) Encrypted Text






Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
Ryan Jul 25th 2007 1:25PM
If you spend the talent points to improve envenom then it does way more damage than evicerate. With two daggers you can apply poisons fast enough to use it every 5 combo points especially if you have improved poison application through talents.
zerorez Jul 25th 2007 1:26PM
Raiding rogues want hit rating 308 is the current goal, the fel leather set is a cheap way to get it quick. Right now combat swords is the highest dps raid spec 20/41/0. Make sure you get a threat meter ktm threat meter is great for staying alive, and if you are close to the tank in threat, vanish, you then can unload.
Jason Jul 25th 2007 1:25PM
Something of note is that a good hemo spec, like a 31/0/30 will be just as good as a combat sword/fist/mace spec. First off, your Rupture is going to hit a little harder. Second, you're taking a little armor off the top of the boss, so Hemo(your Sinister Strike replacement) is going to hit a little harder. Third, the Hemo debuff itself: everyone else does more damage.
So, looking at the context of the thread you linked, along with the fact that any Hemo sub build will have Serrated Blades, it is a very solid build. Additionally, there was some math done pre BC showing that at a certain point in AP, Hemo outperformed SS in terms of DPE. As I recall, that breakpoint was 1000 AP. Given that you can clear 1500 AP with enchants and proper gear before getting into KZ, I find it hard to believe that any rogue out there can't put together a good set of gear for running Hemo.
Cheers ^.^
Ryan Jul 25th 2007 1:43PM
An addendum to the point about 'learning when to move': if you didn't pick up the Fleet Footed talent (which most won't), it's not a bad idea to consider investing in Cat's Swiftness (or Boar's Speed if you need Stam) to your boots to reduce the downtime in movements (think of all the times you have to run out in Prince, run back to Shade of Aran after a mass slow, or chase down errant Flares on Curator and you get the idea). I recommend strongly against one of the 'Swift' metagems, as there are much better bonuses to be found in other metagems.
Fondren Jul 25th 2007 1:43PM
Funny thing is that our guild has difficulty recruiting rogues. We're okay on healers and tanks, but have difficulty finding competent rogues. (Part of the problem may be that we have a 21 year minimum age...).
Look up Dream Team on the Blade's Edge if you're interested.
Dahlaine Jul 25th 2007 1:46PM
My main raiding tip is always remember to use Cloak of Shadows to take off Gronn Lord's Grasp (the movement slow) when fighting Gruul. Nothing makes this fight easier than being able to position yourself at full run speed before the Shatter.
Grew Jul 25th 2007 1:50PM
The sweet spot for hemo to be more effective than SS is over 3k AP. Hemo comes close to a combat build, if you have insane gear, but is not optimal for raids. In a 25 man instance, with all charges being used up on hemo, you're adding ~85dps to the raid. In a 10 man instance, you'll be lucky to use up half of the charges. Hemo also falls short when the mob is immune to bleed.
Grew of Draenor
rick gregory Jul 25th 2007 2:12PM
Good summary. A few things...
1) Hemo as a raid spec? um, no. Your damage will not approach an equivalently geared Combat rogue and damage is a big part of what we add to raids. No Kara rogue will have much more than 1400AP starting and maybe 1600-1800 after gearing.
Mutilate is similar - there are enough poison immune mobs that your damage will be noticeably less than Combat using equivalent gear.
What if you like these specs for non-raiding times? Simple - respec. 50g is nothing in Outland - spec for raids, respec for the rest of the time.
3) Be flexible. For example, Dagger rogues are sup-optimal on flare duty for the Curator fight since they don't have a visible front or back making it almost impossible to use Backstab and SS hits like a pillow using daggers. The solution? Spec daggers, but carry a good sword and switch it in for that fight
4) +hit, +hit, +hit if you're Combat. don't get unbalanced (250 hit but 1200AP) but if your hit is less than 150-175, look at your gear/gems. Try to get as high as possible, but stay balanced
3) Sort of lik
Douglas Jul 25th 2007 2:23PM
@1
The break-even point in pre-BC for Hemo vs. SS was calculated using a 2.9 speed weapon, like the old Rank 14 weapons. However, there aren't really any one-handed weapons slower than 2.7 in BC. At 2.7 speed, the break-even point is around something like 3k AP.
Milktub Jul 25th 2007 2:36PM
Thanks for this. My first character, a rogue, will be reaching 70 in the next week or so, and while I feel OK in 5-mans, I hae no clue what to do once I begin raiding. I missed the whole pre-TBC raids, since I was still around level 40 when TBC was released, so I never got practice in those fights.
From reading this though, it sounds like my chosen spec (41 assassination-mutilate, with the other points distributed) isn't the best for raids? I respecced to that after leveling with a mish-mash of talent nonsense (I had no idea what talents were about when I started the character). I LOVE it for soloing, as I can start and finish a fight with the mob usually getting no more than one hit in on me.
To be really valuble in dishing out DPS do I need to respec to a combat swords build and stand there jamming my SS key? Because that's how I leveled, and it got boring really quickly.
Phil Jul 25th 2007 2:41PM
Dead melee does 0 dps.
a) Don't steal aggro
b) Don't steal aggro
c) Since no one seems to listen to rules a and b, know where your Evasion/CoS/Vanish combination is for when you do steal aggro.
Karazhan is not the same as 25-man raids; your lessons learned from 5-mans will serve you well here. Be prepared to shift again when you head into 25-mans.
Get the rogue dps spreadsheet and plug your gear in. Know that spec is only 1/3rd of the equation on dps, with the other 2/3rds being gear and clue. Spend the resources to get your gear to the best possible place on your own time.
One hemo rogue in a raid can hold their own; more than that is a waste. Elitest Jerk has some excellent recent theory crafting on the fesability of subtlety-mix builds in a raid environment (I'm currently 11/9/41, my favorite for Karazhan, and will be 11/20/30 for 25 man content), and I was using it before other people started agreeing with my math. If you do try this route be prepared to face a great deal of ignorance and prejudice, however. No matter how well you perform or what theory you cite there are people who will insist that hemo can't dps.
Most importantly, find a build that *you* enjoy playing, and then learn how to make the best use of it. What gear you want will vary, as will what cycle you use. Know *why* you are doing what you are doing and you will be able to shift with what a particular battle requires. Don't do something because someone told you it was best, do something because it gives you the best results.
Step two is learning how to see issues as they emerge and know what you can do about it. Are the healers having trouble keeping up on trash? Your warrior may hate you for throwing a kidney shot, but he won't have to pay a repair bill. Is a shackle breaking and eating the healers? Vanish/Kidney Shot can give the tank time to pick it up. Are you being constantly threat-limited? Consider picking up Improved Feint, leveling your Keeper's of Time rep or using Vanish the first time you approach the tank's threat. Learn what classes give you the most benefit (Shaman>Druid>Warrior in my experience), what you will get out of paladin blessings (with the right gear/situation Kings is better than Might), and what key gear you can swap around to give yourself some extra stamina/crit/hit rating/etc.
Just because you aren't a hybrid doesn't mean you shouldn't be flexible.
Phil Jul 25th 2007 2:45PM
Oh, and 1400 ap? Uh, no. I was able to hit 2000 walking into Karazhan. I'm now around 2500 raid buffed. Look at Shadowpanther, do the quests, buy good gems and you should be much better off than that.
In Karazhan most things are succeptable to poison, as is Gruul. This is a change in BC from old-world raiding, but is still valid. What fights are you in particular thinking of that will hurt mutilate?
Ogh Jul 25th 2007 3:46PM
You had a pretty good summary. I'll add the following:
* EZ mode for rogues in raids (especially easy for combat fist/mace/sword) is to put your rotation into a macro and mash that during raids. This is a good way to up your DPS until you get more comfortable with the rotation. As you DO get more comfortable, know when it's time to stop mashing your macro and hit *the right* other key... I swap out my macro for my normal SS button whenever I enter/leave an instance.
* Know when to use kidney shot as a finisher. It's amazing how fast a mob goes down when 4 people are dps'ing it and it's just standing there, not moving. Having 2 pieces of Assassination also grants you haste on a kidney shot.
* Know when to use your cloak of shadows. It removes a lot of debuffs - if in doubt, hit it. It also avoids damage from bosses such as Vorpil during his rain of fire
* Always keep poisons on your weapons
* Feint whenever you can (unless the mob's death is imminent, then KS or evis)
* DON'T GO TO AN INSTANCE UNLESS YOU HAVE THREAT METERS - I recommend Omen. Ask your partymates that don't show up on threat meters to install it also. Anyone tanking, dpsing, or healing should be running threat meters. Anyone not in one of those categories shouldn't be there.
* Run SWStats until you understand how much damage you do and WHERE IT COMES FROM. This is particularly helpful if you tend to run 5 mans with the same people. You will get a good idea of where you fit in and how well you're doing (and your friends) over time. Unlike Damage Meters, SWStats can give you a breakdown of which abilities generated how much of your damage. (hint - eviscerate is probably a minimal part of your damage output in an instance)
* TAKE VANISHING POWDER. If you pull aggro a vanish will wipe it - just realize you now have 5 minutes before your next aggro wipe. Slow down on the SS spam and watch the threat meter.
Michael Jul 25th 2007 4:00PM
@12: 2000 AP with pre-Karazhan gear? That seems very high. May I ask what your +hit was at that point? I ask because my rogue has nearly all the pre-Kara gear, but I equip with a bias towards hit.
I'm at 1408 AP, unbuffed, with +250 hit, with blue gems and revered/exalted enchants. Each piece of my gear is in the top two or three blue slots on Shadowpanther. How are you reaching 2000?
Joe Jul 25th 2007 4:29PM
For combat daggers in kara. What finishing do you use on bleed immune bosses/trash? The 3/5/5 rotation would be missing the rupture, would you just eviscerate then? Most builds dont take imp eviscerate so..whats to do?
ElitistJerk Jul 25th 2007 4:40PM
"Currently, combat swords is considered to be the build with the maximum potential DPS"
That is not a true statement. Considered by whom?
Given two characters with equal or same gear choices (the best of kara through SSC let's say, full tier whatever, enchants, etc) played through a series of different situations back to back...
Combat Daggers will edge out the combat sword spec 95% of the time.
More versatility with ambush (many raid mobs aren't susceptible to garrote or cheapshot, whereas nothing is immune to ambush), adrenaline rush with multiple backstabs. Average sword off hand speed is slower than say many of the offhand daggers out there, therefore combat potency raqe generation is not as rapid... to name a few. Yes swords have nice long marathon sessions of white damage and the ol' 222222232222223 combo with slice and dice. But that's just about it. I'm still curious where combat swords are considered best dps build? What realm are you on?
Phil Jul 25th 2007 5:29PM
My +hit was relatively low; around 230. I ran a lot of 5-mans, and spent some money to get exalted Aldor for the sword. Note that my numbers also seem high because I was deep subtlety at the time; how I made up for the lack of adrinaline rush and dual wield was with higher base numbers. Without Sinister Calling and Deadliness I'd have been around 1600 unbuffed. If I'd been mutilate I'd assume I'd be around 1400 ap, but I'd probably have been pushing 30% crit instead of 22%.
I put together 4-piece Wastewalker's, with Fel Leather boots and Handgrips of Assassination. A well-studded Blackout Truncheon in my off-hand provided a nice boost, with the Abacus of Violent Odds and the Core of Ar'kelos as trinkets. A Necklace of the Deep is easy to buy. I find 5-mans and money are relatively interchangable; the Wastewalker's Helm could be replaced with a Cobrascale Helm, and the Vindicator's Brand could be replaced by Reflex Blades.
However, 10-man buffed even without my talents I'd still have been around 2200. Throw in battle shout, a hunter with expose weakness and modern consumables and I'd have been nearing 2600. Back then, being an alchemist, and with talents, I could get 3000; it was just wicked expensive ;)
Hopefully most people have an easier time getting in to Karazhan than I did, and so will be less over-prepared. Even so, I wouldn't consider 1600 ap unbuffed an unreasonable goal.
carter Jul 25th 2007 8:19PM
@11, where do you find this dps spreadsheet that you enter your gear into to?
Phil Jul 26th 2007 9:44AM
http://rogue.raidcal.com/
It makes my world a happy place :)
skhottyboi Jul 26th 2007 3:14AM
If you had 2k AP walking into Kara then you were not gearing up properly...Having that much AP in blues means you're probably lacking hit rating, stam, and crit quite a bit. Either that or you're making that up imo =P (Unless you mean buffed, but I think the rest of us are talking about unbuffed.)