Guildless: The saga continues
by Amanda Rivera 
Aug 14th 2007 at 6:45PM
As you might remember, I made the decision a while back to try my hand at raiding, and for the first time ever /gquit. It was with a heavy heart that I applied to a friend's raiding guild, one that had previously accepted a few of my guild's members that wanted to get into raiding. It took a couple of weeks to be accepted in, mostly because my gear was so very shoddy in comparison, and they were looking toward TK and SSC. In addition to that, I had a friend in the guild who was fighting on my behalf with the guild master, and just about the time that talks opened up between the three of us, I shipped off to BlizzCon.
So I came back from the convention with an absolute burning desire to play again, something I haven't had for a good long while. I messaged the Guild Master, eager to know the results of her discussions with the other officers. No answer. I messaged my friend, and was given the run around. Just about the time I thought I better throw in the towel, my answer came. It came in the form of a guild invite. I had managed to weasel my way in.I cannot tell you how excited this made me. I was asked to refine my spec to maximize raid dps, and did so without hesitation. And then I popped on during the first raid night a good two hours early because I was so filled with anticipation I didn't want to miss any chance at an invite. I had been told I was accepted as what they call a "Kara benchwarmer," so I wasn't expecting much more than an evening or two killing ghosts for money outside the mansion. Surprisingly enough, an invite did come, and I was able to enter Kara with the guild's second raid group.
That night we cleared up to Curator, a feat no pug I had run with before had been able to accomplish. That was also the night I got myself four epics, by virtue of being the only mage in the group (how do I love the ten man? Let me count the ways.) The next night we finished off Kara completely, while the first group wasn't able to get enough players to run the instance themselves. While I felt a certain amount of smugness at being in the group that did finish, I should have instead realized it was a sign of things to come.
The third raid night I wasn't able to attend due to a business function (darn you work!), but evidently it was a Gruul run where everything went to pot. That night the raid waited around for someone who had afk'd for about 30 minutes, and finally broke off the run in frustration. The run wasn't the only thing that broke. That evening 6 key members of the core raiding team left the guild, stating that there wasn't enough going on in the guild to keep them.
This left the Guild Master and remaining officers (yes, they were officers too) with a difficult decision: rebuild the guild again for the third time, or cut bait and have done with. They chose the second option, and I honestly don't blame them. They had spent months preparing, training new raiders, gearing up the group, and after all that the guild members couldn't even bother to log on to get a 25 man group together.
So Sunday night after group one finished wiping the floor with the Prince, they had us log on vent, and told us the sad news: the guild was going casual. At this point I had only been in the guild for a few days, but I felt strangely sad. It had taken weeks of work to get my gear up to the point that it was worthy of raiding with this guild, and so I guess I felt that my dealings with them had been a lot longer than they actually were. I had to make a choice myself: to stay in the guild as a casual member, or to leave with the raiders. I chose to leave, knowing that I still wanted to raid, to see the end-game content with my own eyes, not just in a YouTube video. And so for the second time I /guit.
My mage is guildless once again, applying to another guild in hopes that I will be accepted. It's such a weird feeling, like I am working a series of summer internships on my way towards my chosen career. Each application feels like a job interview. I have to wonder though, am I the only one who feels this way?
Filed under: Analysis / Opinion, Raiding
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
Corrodias Aug 14th 2007 6:55PM
Harsh.
I've stuck with my same guild for a looong time, now. Fortunately for me, we move at about the right pace. I'd like to be raiding a LITTLE more than we are now, but we're still making steady progress, and i have a hard time imagining giving up this group for another. I guess i got lucky when i was invited by the bank in Org those many months ago.
AcidCat Aug 14th 2007 7:04PM
"Each application feels like a job interview"
Well it is really, because to be a serious raider in this game, you have to turn it into a job, with all that entails - a show-up time, a specific task to perform a specific way, required qualifications, etc. Your playtime has become Serious Business.
Oh, any this is a job you actually pay monthly to attend.
I understand a lot of people like to "play" this way, but to me it just seems crazy.
Dave Aug 14th 2007 7:30PM
That's pretty much exactly what happened to me with the first attempt I made at raiding.
I've decided it'll be my last attempt at raiding until Blizzard changes the raiding structure to allow for people who are uninterested in making raiding a full-time job. Unfortunately for me I suppose, my situation involved an IRL friend who plays a healer being badgered by everyone who splintered off into other guilds begging her to come to their guild. In the meantime after the initial raiding guild imploded we started a fresh guild and started getting new people into the guild to start up with our own raids. Around a week or two (or maybe even at the start, I don't know really) into the guild's raiding, we'd managed to finally get the right class balance in the raid to make solid efforts on kara... and I guess the constant pressuring combined with the lack of an easy clear due to 1 guild blowing up into 10 guilds, none of which had enough people to run a 25-man.... the guild leader (my friend) finally gave up on the guild and joined the guild where one of the officers of the original guild was an officer. No, I wasn't invited they were full on tanks, sorry.
3 months later, everyone involved is on yet another guild or three since the last blowup.
I've decided it's just not worth the time and effort for the most part on a server that's full of impatient people and assholes who are totally content to raid other people's guilds.
25-man raids were supposed to "fix" the problems, but it's really only caused more.
kunukia Aug 14th 2007 7:33PM
Glad I belong to a casual guild that:
#1 Has never asked anyone to change their spec.
#2 Tries to keep help folks, rather than make them have certain gear before they can even join.
Even so, we manage to get some end game stuff done. Not all the time or intensely but enough to enjoy without it becoming a job.
rick gregory Aug 14th 2007 7:38PM
acidcat,
depends... at 70 the quests aren't getting you anything but gold. instances are fun for awhile, but after a bit there's not much challenge in Shattered Halls, Slab, etc. You can grind/farm, but that's not that much fun. You can PvP but if you're not into that... what's left? Two things - start an alt or raid.
Raiding DOES require planning, but it's not a job if you like it. Sure, you need to show at a given time... and yeah, you need to do your role... but really, that's part of being a group - I'm not sure what the downside to playing really well is. In return, you get fights that are more complex, harder, more fulfilling and more fun than 5 mans, etc. I remember when we first downed Shade - fun fight, long fight, close... I and one other person took him down, most of the group was dead... and it felt GREAT.
To the OP - the people who left were offbase IMO. One bad experience with Gruul isn't a reason to gquit... but this happens a lot - some people want to do the 25 man content, some feel that any schedule is an imposition and won't show. What you need to do is recruit more people who want to raid... that and decide whether you are about raiding (and all that entails) or whether you're casual. You can mix them, but you can't allow people who SAY they want to raid but always have an excuse for not showing up.
Beaverius Aug 14th 2007 7:41PM
You knwo, i think your situation is pretty common these days.
Your situation is identical to some folks that have joined and subsequently left my guild. They joined when we were building our 2nd kara team but we never quite made it over the hump for teh 2nd group and people got bored and left to groups where they had a guarenteed spot in any of the countless kara guilds that start up daily. It seems that when 1 person leaves, others think the group is folding and get out before it gets too bad and a mass exodus is the result.
Personally, I can't blame those who left my guild due to lack of raiding. As much as I hate to say it, personal happiness, IMHO, should come first. Of course that is a complicated issue when you're unhappy with the situation more than the people, so you have to wonder, is leaving your friends worth the phat lootz(always spelled with a z) and personal glory?
In my own guild, we've been having all sorts of drama this summer related to raiding. Well, more like related to NON-raiding since that is the main reason people have left.
I am on the other side of the table: I am an officer in our raiding guild but due to gquits, we aren't really raiding right now and it puts me in a pickle. Do i stick around and rebuild and put the guild in front of my own personal happiness or do I suck it up and app somewhere else with my epic kara lootz? This being my first "real" guild, I've gotten to know my guildies over the summer and frankly the thought of leaving my friends kinda sucks.
I totally agree that Apps seem like a job interview . Frankly that turns me off a little, but i realize that it can be a necessary evil.
rambly rambly beav
Pingmeister Aug 14th 2007 7:52PM
I have never attended any raid (or even been in a group bigger than three players) but I think people are overly harsh on the raiders.
I play with friends who I care about and that's the reason I play.
But I can totally see why people like raiding and I think they deserve our respect.
Sure, some of them can go a little nuts but I think just about everything in this game can be driven to insane levels by someone with the right level of kookiness.
No reason to bash just because they expect a certain spec, armor or availability. If that's what makes the game fun for you, go for it.
Luxicon Aug 14th 2007 8:01PM
Reminds me of my situation, and what seems to be happening alot.
Our guild managed 2 Kara teams pretty well, and after a few weeks we even got Gruul down. Unfortunately we got stuck after that. Couldn't get much done in Mag, SSC, or the Eye. We were a casual raiding guild and didn't have enough people logging on, people who weren't taking it serious, people afk, and people with sub-par gear.
We were about a day before disbanding our guild, when we found another guild exactly in our situation and merged into a new guild. Now we have more than enough members who are willing to put in the effort and we're a full raiding guild. In just one week, we killed Voidreaver, Mag and a world boss. The change is completely amazing!
MacAllah Aug 14th 2007 8:23PM
I feel like I should chime in as I have had an almost opposite experience. I had joined the game almost a year ago (whew, the time flew by) and knew not a single thing about the game joined a guild of some decent-seeming players.
I advanced quickly as Shadow. With no ideas of quests or even the AH I got to 60 in about 2.5 months. The guild was pretty casual, but I had gotten to 60 and switched to Holy. We spent November, December, and January raiding UBRS and ZG.
I was by then a co-leader and the main healer. When TBC came out I switched again to Shadow to fly to 70. I made it there before anyone else and sat there. As it became clear that Shadow was more viable than Holy I crafted my FS and SS sets and took off for greener pastures.
The next 4 months would read like a bad Spanish soap opera. In my new guild there would be fights over loot, fights over timing, dating disputes and name calling.
Fed up with our lack of progress and the amount of time I was spending to please the guild leaders, I left. The next guild was even worse. At this time I read the first installment of this "Guildless" column. It inspired me to be... guildless.
In the past month I've never had to worry about a raid time and have been able to play at my liesure. Even more impressive is my endless quest for "epix" has sped up. I've spent my time questing, griding rep, and running PUG heroics.
A /who for any of my old guildmates reveals further foibles in Kara while I'm pushing 1000 +dmg. It's awesome.
Wena Aug 14th 2007 9:02PM
Hope that you're able to find another guild. Funny thing about guilds is that even progressive ones label themselves as casual. My guild is but we've been doing alright in Kara and HKM. Moving onto Gruul but we're willing to take in new members that are not yet level 70. Mostly Healers rather than DPSers as we have a lot of subs.
And we've been fortunate that a lot of people who do join us are ex-hardcore-raiders-wanting-casual-raids that we get the expertise and they are an inspiration to those who have not raided before.
And yeah, it's the people that make the guild. But we do notice a trend. People who want to raid and want a friendly atmosphere for raiding, stays and makes it work (takes about 1-2 weeks of acclimatization). People who only wanted to raid, leave pretty early.
bwest0526 Aug 15th 2007 3:03AM
I think what a lot of the problem is is the restrictions, you have 26 or 29 people you can't ALL do the one raid because only 25 are allowed, then you can't do the 40 because you don't have enough. Silliness I tell you! One reason I did enjoy raiding in EQ we could have up to 72 people in a raid and many times we did, or if you have a really good "team" they could take on a Boss with just the 6 of them. I have even seen some of the earlier Bosses soloed by Shadow Knights and Pallies. For Blizz to put restrictions on "raids" is just rediculous and it causes more problems than it solves, having to sexclude people from a raid because they already have 25 or because you aren't the right class that they need to be assured a win.
Causes too much conflict and anxiety in a guild and that has a lot to do with why guilds in WoW don't stay together as long as the ones in EQ, I was a member of a guild in EQ for over 4 years, unless you are in an Elite guild in WoW I doubt many guilds even last that long in WoW.
Blizz change your raiding format and save everyone some headaches!!!
Niklaw
ICftB
Zangarmarsh
Bastiaan Aug 15th 2007 4:43AM
Good luck with the upcoming applications :-)!
You will probably be able to convince the next guilds of your 'worth' a bit quicker since you are more geared up and have more Kara experience. So finding a new (and hopefully longer-lasting) guild should take less time now than it did before.
Keep us updated, it's a nice read!
daniel Aug 15th 2007 5:46AM
Sad to hear, Amanda. I think we can all relate to the difficulty and stress of finding another guild, leaving one that has really nice people in it but not the game you're looking for and trying to prove yourself as a trial. Hope you have better luck with your new applications. Too bad you're not on Arathor EU :)
Jess Aug 15th 2007 7:54AM
Don't give up! This is a very common BC problem that people gear up in Kara and then jump ship to a raid that is already dropping "insert boss here" rather than stay with the guild they are in. I have a few ex guildies that have gone through guilds the way some people go through underwear.
I hope you will find the right group to raid with soon!
OrionPaxt Aug 15th 2007 8:20AM
I run a casual guild and we accept anyone that wishes to join us. To overcome our raiding limitations we have allied our guild with a bigger raiding guild and share a common chat channel. This allows casual gamers that want to stay in a casual environment the opportunity to raid and do endgame content
Mystrana Aug 15th 2007 4:17PM
Happened to me. My guild leader left to join another guild because they were already raiding Kara, and we didn't have quite enough people yet.
So the rest of us continued on with our guild, recruiting people both ingame and irl, and came up with nine people. One person short of Kara, and then seven of the nine left to go to different guilds (most of them following our old guild master).
Now, I know I could go join another guild if I really wanted to, but it's so hard. I put a lot of time and effort into helping my guild leaders come up with groups and running instances to help people get keyed.
I don't want to go to another guild and be some little healbot with no face behind the name, so to speak. But is being an officer of a guild of few that good either?
Dance Party from Demonsoul, always recruiting for our potential kara raid. Talk to me ingame if you're interested. >.>
Levi Aug 15th 2007 8:48AM
But 25-mans made high-level raid content more accessible for casual guilds, right?
...Right?
Holy Aug 15th 2007 10:30AM
@6 I agree and I am in a similar situation.
I am the GM of our casual/progressive friends and family guild and for over a year I have scheduled nightly runs for quests/loots/rep/attunement. Anything that would at least get their interest up so in time we'll have a chance to get into Karazhan. After months of grinding the same instances for several guildies, we were finally able to get enough people into Kara but we failed to take down Attumen on our first try. It's not due to lack of gear or skill. We are a family guild and it was almost impossible to take him down due to the 25 minute respawn timer. There will always be at least a couple of players who'd afk between pulls to check on the baby, mitigate wife aggro, kiss kids good night, etc. By the time we pull Midnight, the devil-mares have respawned. We scheduled our Kara runs for 2 hours, twice a week but even with that, not everyone can make it to every run.
Some of us were fine with that but some felt restless and felt that the guild is ready to go 'hardcore'. The next week, we had a bit of guild drama that resulted in some players leaving the guild for all sort of reason, all pointing to 'raiding' or losing interest in WoW (which again can be traced back to 'I won't get into BT with this guild, ever'). Half of the core people gone leaving only a few below-70's who are too casual even just to run lower level instances. Last night, my wife and I decided to transfer the guild leadership to another player, /gquit and start all over again in another server as guildless players until Warhammer comes out. We hope to re-capture the magic of exploration and questing and forget about raiding for a while.
Months of hard work just went up in smoke. Some people don't realize that it take a lot of time and energy to manage a guild, steer everyone toward a goal and try to keep everyone happy (no matter how impossible it seems). It's equally harder for most GMs and officers of close-knit guilds to /gquit since, at least for me, we've passed that "It's only a game" line a long time ago.
Paw Aug 15th 2007 10:53AM
Welcome back to the Dark Side.
I signed up with a friend's guild pre-TBC with the promise of running the lower-level instances as I levelled my main (I only started playing last summer). The guild imploded due to all the drama queens wanting for attention. The lowbies were never helped in any way. When a group of lowbies would run an instance we were expected to pay into the pot. Yet, when we asked foir assistance from the upper echelon we were summarily dismissed as a bother.
I /gquit after the fearless leaders all jumped ship to another guild that was running better raids than they could muster for, and I haven't looked back.
Go freelance for a while. You got some gear now, you're more marketable.
Epiny Aug 15th 2007 12:01PM
That's where clicks come in. Every raiding guild has a few clicks of "key" people. Most people are loyal to there click and not the guild. I know I have swapped guilds before because all of my friends left. And as we were all the key raiders the guild fell apart. However since we were the major force behind the guild we all found another guild fast.