Harry Plotter and the Ninja of the Phoenix
by Elizabeth Wachowski 
Aug 20th 2007 at 3:00PM
Long, long ago, when dinosaurs roamed Azeroth and barely anyone I knew had their epic mount, we used to argue about what would happen if the tiger mount dropped in ZG. This was back when the epic mounts themselves were the expensive part, not the training. There were two different schools of thought on the subject. There were some who thought that people without an epic mount should get first dibs, as it would essentially be only a cosmetic upgrade for people who had their epics. The other people thought that epic mount-holders shouldn't be prevented from rolling on a rare, awesome thing just because they had taken the time to farm for their epic. This argument largely died when the cost of mount training became the expensive thing. Or did it?
Recently, a guild on my server killed Kael'thas and received the Ashes of Al'ar, also known as the phoenix mount. The guild leader/master looter linked all the loot, said that they would discuss the phoenix mount later ... and after the rest of the loot was handed out, proceeded to masterloot it to himself. A few officers of the guild defended his actions by saying that some officers had encouraged him to take it, which somewhat neglects the fact that this guild runs on DKP instead of officer loot, and that running a guild is a tough job that deserves some extra recognition.
This has prompted a spirited discussion about what to do when ultra-rare mounts drop. There seems to be five options here: masterlooting it to yourself, having everyone roll, having everyone with 300 skill roll, bidding DKP, or having everyone with 300 skill bid DKP. Most people I've talked to seem to think that masterlooting it to yourself is a cheap option, but are undecided as to whether you should have to have 300 riding skill to roll.
Personally, I think that this would be an excellent opportunity to use a bidding DKP system, even if you have fixed DKP values (like my guild does) because it's hard to assign worth to a cosmetic upgrade. That way, people who really, really want a phoenix mount can blow all their DKP to get it. What do you think guilds should do about rare mount drops? Is it really a ninja if the masterlooter takes something? Should guild/raid leaders get some sort of bonus when it comes to loot distribution?
Edited to add: Uxorious and Chad are not the same person.The GM of this guild is a good person, and I personally do not believe he's a "ninja" in the classic definition, of maliciously taking an item. Officers from the guild in question have said in the comments that they were unprepared for the mount to drop and, in the confusion, they encouraged the leader to take it.
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 6)
Todd Aug 20th 2007 3:10PM
Can anyone who doesn't have 300 riding skill can even be GIVEN such an item? If an enchanting recipe drops which requires 375 skill, I don't think anyone below that skill level can even be given it.
Klysandral Aug 20th 2007 3:16PM
I personally think everyone should roll for the mount and the highest roll wins as its only fair way to do this. Since everyone has part taken in the raid. everyone has comtribted their part in the raid working their way to the end and ade in killing the boss or keeping others alive for the raid to be completed,its only fair for everyone to have a equal chance for this type of rare loot.
If there are some equal high rolls for it they should all re roll again until there is one roll thats the higest out of the equal rolls.
Certain use the master loot option to allow everyne time t see the loot and sort out the rolls but I dont think justbecause your a GM or officer of a guild you should automatically get the mount. A guild needs its Gm and the officers but a guild also needs its members aswell.
EAMC Aug 20th 2007 3:16PM
That guy is a freakin Ninja. He said they would discuss it then took it. I would have /gquit right there.
TotalBiscuit Aug 20th 2007 3:17PM
Incorrect Todd, if they're below the required trade-skill level they can indeed receive such a thing.
And yes, they can be given the item.
This kind of thing should indeed by left up to DKP bidding. It's not an item of any intrinsic value to the guild and the raid itself, it's a novelty. It's up to people to choose just how much value they put on novelties. Some of us like to collect stuff like that. I wouldn't sell my murloc suit, hibachi grill, murky, tabard of the flame etc for love nor money. Some don't give a damn. Let people set their own value for items like this and while you're at it, make more of em! God knows the game could use some more nifty rare items.
TB.
Ahoni Aug 20th 2007 3:20PM
Yes, you are a ninja if you master loot it to yourself. If you take loot without giving everyone else present an opportunity to bid/roll/qualify, you are a ninja.
Personally I think you should already have the 300 riding skill (or be in a position to get it within days, ie you have 4500+ gold) in order to bid on this. Druids don't roll on mail. Hunters don't roll on plate. Why would you let someone roll on this who can't use it. Not after a respec. Not someday. You have people in the raid who can use it now. Anyone who can't use it now has to wait for it to drop again.
Levi Aug 20th 2007 3:20PM
Really, the only way to make sure everyone stays happy is to let everyone /random. Just say if someone without 300 riding gets it, they're expected to be riding their phoenix within a couple weeks or they'll have their DKP reset.
Whitburn Aug 20th 2007 3:22PM
Actually 1# any enchanter can roll on an enchanting recipe regardless of their skill. I have had some problems looting rare Blacksmithing recipes in the past when I was soloing but it would seem these two issues are unrelated.
Right! Back to zee topic yes?
I reckon anyone with the 300 in skill should roll. I'd feel a little cheated if I had 300 skill and someone who didn't have won it.
Ghen Aug 20th 2007 3:21PM
Totally ninjaed! Noone should get anything masterlooted to them without the entire raid agreeing on it. Guild leaders don't deserve rare loot just because they're guild leaders! Heck, my old guild leader would purposefully pass on all loot so other priests could get it first, thats a true leader.
Justo Aug 20th 2007 3:23PM
the dude is a straight up ninja. it should have been a DKP bid item just like everything else.
Tim Hettler Aug 20th 2007 3:28PM
DKP shouldn't be used for an item like this since it doesn't benefit anyone but the player getting it. (DKP should be used for items that benefit the guild/raid.) A nice GM would /roll 40, but it's really up to his/her discretion. If it wasn't for his patience and leadership, the guild wouldn't have gotten the loot in the first place.
Wolfkin Aug 20th 2007 3:29PM
There's no question that the leader ninja'd that loot. That's pretty much the definition. Sure, there's something to be said for leading a guild that's good enough to take down A'lar, but should you expect that kind of prejudicial discretion everytime a piece of loot drops? Seems pretty cheap to me. Aside from that, he apparently got an ultra-rare item for "free". The story doesn't mention that he even paid the requisite dkp, whatever that may be, for the mount.
If you use a DKP system, and a BOP drops, you use the DKP system in place for your guild to resolve ownership of that item. It's as simple as that, and there's no excuse for using any other system to do so, including arbitrarily looting the item to yourself.
Honestly, after that I'd probably insist that a new guild member be put in charge of masterlooting after that point, or I'd /gquit.
chad Aug 20th 2007 3:32PM
I'm an officer in the guild in question. We had, jokingly almost (since who actually *expects* the ashes to drop on your 2nd kael kill?), discussed it in an officer's meeting about 2 weeks prior. Some of us thought it should be an attendance-based roll. Others thought it should be auto-looted to the GM. The GM stayed out of it. He is not a greedy bastard, and seriously.. "it's not gonna drop anyway".
As a symbol of progression and I guess guild epeen, anyone in the guild riding around on it is pretty neat. But IMO, this is tantamount to getting the title "Scarab Lord", which you all know was universally the GM of the #1 guild on the realm. at least 4 of the officers wanted it to go to the GM. The other 2 had 100% attendance and wanted it to be 95%+ roll off... Anyway, after brief discussion in o-chat and in the officer channel on vent, and at the urging of most of us, he took it himself.
Stop calling him greedy. He's not. I, for one, am proud to see him streaking around shatt on that phoenix. Most of our guildies agree.
Physical Original Aug 20th 2007 3:34PM
Anyone who feels entitled to something like this is full of it. No one "deserves" this item.
I can understand the arguments of people who think that you should have 300 riding skill to get it, but I don't agree personally. If your guild is using DKP then you should use DKP for this item.
This instance is a serious breach of trust, and I feel sorry for those guild members who were cheated.
Sylythn Aug 20th 2007 3:37PM
@1 - I disagree - Soulfrost dropped for us a while ago and both our guild enchanters were there. We both rolled on it, and I got it. I'm stuck at 374, and currently saving up the mats for my 375 rod. Because I'm at 374 (and have been for 11 yellow skill enchants), I shouldn't be able to get Soulfrost? Come on...
As for the mount - I never intend on raising the 5k for the 300 riding skill, but if this dropped I'd think long and hard before I passed on the opportunity to get it. If I did, you can bet I'd be farming for that riding skill right away. Since it absolutely 0 value to the raid, it doesn't matter worth a darn if someone can use it right away. This isn't standard gear, it's not "going to waste" by going to someone without the skill yet - it just means that person now has a goal to work towards so they can use their cool mount.
Ciacco Aug 20th 2007 3:40PM
This is a tough call, but depends on the 'spirit' of the raid in my opinion. I know back in the day if my GL was in the raid with me and the ZG mount dropped, we would have all expected him to take it as thanks for his work getting us together and into the instance, as it was moving mountains.
Even if the raid was somewhat vocal about him getting it, let him say "everone random it' and let everyone pass to show that they really want him to have it. A guild chat full of Pass sends a much stronger message of solidarity and collective opinion than a GM taking it himself. Kind of shows your true colors if you create the trust/atmosphere, and then find out if 'everyone' feels that way.
As an example on a much smaller level, if we have a PUG person added to Kara for some reason, say to help us finish if someone had to log at end time, we offer the opportunity to random anything we DE. If they say, yeah, we all roll, but we have yet to have anyone say so, so instead it goes to the guild bank. Us offering often creates the positive atmosphere that prompts them to respect the unity of the guild they joined and send it to the bank - but if they aren't comfortable we respect that, because you can't get mad at the random command, only at people.
Horixon Aug 20th 2007 3:37PM
I think it should be handled the way that guild handles any other loot. If they have dkp, make it a dkp item. If they random roll by people who can use, then random roll for it. I think it was wrong of the GL to take that without so much as a discussion in raid chat. And I also believe that the people that haven't put in the time and effort to achieve the 300 skill level shouldn't be eligable until they have done so.
brent Aug 20th 2007 3:41PM
Ah, tales of the purple crack.
Raiding at times just would be so much more fun without loot. The whole accomplishment is just undermined when crap like this happens.
IMHO its a greedy move, that benefits nobody. You should just random it for all as its a candy drop. It's good for morale to be fair, and sometimes the prospect of a roll like that is enough to keep raiding. Look how many in thesse few posts mention a /gquit is that worth your fruity bird.
Alcevious Aug 20th 2007 3:42PM
I'd actually feel less for anyone who would stay in a guild with a ninja looter as a guildmaster.
Ahoni Aug 20th 2007 3:42PM
@12
Thanx for speaking up Chad. If this was something that was discussed previously amongst the guild officers, I would be less likely to call him a ninja, as I did above. Guess there is always 2 sides to every story, imagine that :)
Any raiding guild should have a policy on this stuff though. Do you use DKP for mounts? Roll? Little bit of planning could fend off a lot of /gquits later.
dcisko Aug 20th 2007 3:43PM
If the GL says "we'll discuss it" and then takes it without discussion... that sucks. /gquit
If the officers believe that they can rewrite the rules when they feel like it, without guild discussion... that sucks. /gquit