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All of the latest Mists of Pandaria newsHarry Plotter and the Ninja of the Phoenix
by Elizabeth Wachowski 
Aug 20th 2007 at 3:00PM
Long, long ago, when dinosaurs roamed Azeroth and barely anyone I knew had their epic mount, we used to argue about what would happen if the tiger mount dropped in ZG. This was back when the epic mounts themselves were the expensive part, not the training. There were two different schools of thought on the subject. There were some who thought that people without an epic mount should get first dibs, as it would essentially be only a cosmetic upgrade for people who had their epics. The other people thought that epic mount-holders shouldn't be prevented from rolling on a rare, awesome thing just because they had taken the time to farm for their epic. This argument largely died when the cost of mount training became the expensive thing. Or did it?
Recently, a guild on my server killed Kael'thas and received the Ashes of Al'ar, also known as the phoenix mount. The guild leader/master looter linked all the loot, said that they would discuss the phoenix mount later ... and after the rest of the loot was handed out, proceeded to masterloot it to himself. A few officers of the guild defended his actions by saying that some officers had encouraged him to take it, which somewhat neglects the fact that this guild runs on DKP instead of officer loot, and that running a guild is a tough job that deserves some extra recognition.
This has prompted a spirited discussion about what to do when ultra-rare mounts drop. There seems to be five options here: masterlooting it to yourself, having everyone roll, having everyone with 300 skill roll, bidding DKP, or having everyone with 300 skill bid DKP. Most people I've talked to seem to think that masterlooting it to yourself is a cheap option, but are undecided as to whether you should have to have 300 riding skill to roll.
Personally, I think that this would be an excellent opportunity to use a bidding DKP system, even if you have fixed DKP values (like my guild does) because it's hard to assign worth to a cosmetic upgrade. That way, people who really, really want a phoenix mount can blow all their DKP to get it. What do you think guilds should do about rare mount drops? Is it really a ninja if the masterlooter takes something? Should guild/raid leaders get some sort of bonus when it comes to loot distribution?
Edited to add: Uxorious and Chad are not the same person.The GM of this guild is a good person, and I personally do not believe he's a "ninja" in the classic definition, of maliciously taking an item. Officers from the guild in question have said in the comments that they were unprepared for the mount to drop and, in the confusion, they encouraged the leader to take it.
Reader Comments (Page 4 of 6)
Brian McBride Aug 21st 2007 12:57AM
#12 - sounds like you officers hate your guild members. After all, it is the whole team that gets you to the end, not just officers or a guild leader.
Total ninja scam. Glad I am not on your server.
So, what drop are you officers going to snake from your members next?
Alcevious Aug 21st 2007 1:38AM
No real discussion to this entire situation. What we have here is a guild that decided to keep an epeen item only to the higher ups; people can try and worm around the word, but the truth is it's the definition of "ninja looting."
It's not justifiable. Chad knows it, the guild leader knows it, and the guild members know it. Sure, they might have wanted the guild master to have it anyway, but to not even consult the members that allowed you to even down the mob that gave you the item ranks as a pretty shitty thing to do.
But hey, I'm sure riding around on a flaming digital bird is worth more than the trust of your guild members.
Uxorious Aug 21st 2007 1:51AM
You guys are retards, and @ whoever made this post. You are obviously misinformed.
The Mount was an officer decision, we decided to give it to Grimice. Maybe not a favorable decision but a decision nevertheless.
Who knows better than a person who was there? I thought so. Basically, this character - thought it would be interesting and would get them some views so they base their thoughts and information from posts and threads that have been spammed across our realm forums. Anyways, congratulations on making a false article based on retards and alt posters on the forums.
Thank you for making us famous though.
Uxorious Aug 21st 2007 1:57AM
Let me enlighten all of you on something else.
The author of this article was part of a guild that disliked our GM and our entire guild. You can only see where I'm going with this.
kunukia Aug 21st 2007 2:08AM
Errmmm, not how it would have been handled in our guild. Our GM would not have wanted such a rare mount, if others did not have a shot at it. But, to each his own. If the folks in that guild did not /gquit, maybe they love and respect the GM and wanted him to have it. It is impossible for someone outside the guild to know the dynamics at play.
Morien Aug 21st 2007 3:23PM
When the Fiery Warhorse dropped of Attumen in Karazhan, it was handed out based on the open-roll system. All 10 of us rolled, and i won with a 97. What surprised me most, is that my Guild Master, who's known server-wide as an arrogant ass, handed it to me quite willingly, even though at the time, i wasn't even in his guild. This guy is a Ninja, no two ways around it.
superfrank Aug 21st 2007 5:27AM
I hope everybody leaves that guild, because if you can't trust raidleaders to hand loot out fairly then you are liable to be ripped off at any time.
superfrank Aug 21st 2007 6:01AM
@36 "The problem with making it a straight-dkp item is that inherently some classes end up spending more dkp than others....So some classes are far negative on the dkp lists while others have more dkp than they could ever know what to do with."
May I recommend Suicide Kings its a closed system so there's no inflation or negative points; loot gets allocated broadly speaking in direct proportion to attendance, yet it allows people to build up position in the ranking (by not bidding on loot) if there is an item that they want to get as soon as it drops.
superfrank Aug 21st 2007 6:03AM
@36 "The problem with making it a straight-dkp item is that inherently some classes end up spending more dkp than others....So some classes are far negative on the dkp lists while others have more dkp than they could ever know what to do with."
May I recommend Suicide Kings its a closed system so there's no inflation or negative points; loot gets allocated broadly speaking in direct proportion to attendance, yet it allows people to build up position in the ranking (by not bidding on loot) if there is an item that they want to get as soon as it drops.
Zzap64 Aug 21st 2007 6:29AM
"So the officers went to another channel and discussed it"
Theres your problem right there it seems to me.
If it was a case of it dropped, GL announced we'll discuss it later, then the officers went away and chatted about it with no Guild input and suddenly the GL loots the mount.. all on the officers say so.. Id think twice about putting even a minute more of my time in to help that group out.
Why bother when the officers and GL can quietly shut the door on the guild while they decide what to do with a drop thats out of the ordinary?
I play to help the guild, if the GL asks me for the mount and I respect him/her and they do a lot of work for the guild.. sure I'd pass in a heartbeat and have a lot more respect for the GL/officers if they at least asked the guild instead of telling them after the decision has been made
Im not that fussed about an epic mount to be honest. However I AM fussed about a fair system being in place where the GL/officers consult the guild.
But thats just my opinion. I wasnt there.
Jason Aug 21st 2007 7:46AM
When the other side resorts to insuts you know you have won the arguement.
Officers and friends of Chad, thanks for validating your mistake and arrogance by posting your ignorant insults here. You don't know people on this board, and you don't know which of us have run raiding guilds, so STFU with your worhtless opinion. YOu were wrong, you said one thing and did another, you thing the guild benefits are for elite asshats like you, and you ninjad the loot from you memebers, who I hope have all g/quit.
Otacon Aug 22nd 2007 5:54AM
@38 (PyroAmos) ... Main Tank!?!? I respectfully disagree with you there, what about every other class that was present in the raid its not like the main tank can do it alone - think of the healer assigned to heal that tank does he not deserve it...
Can yu kindly explain what yu mean by 'Status holder'?
CauthonDM Aug 21st 2007 9:19AM
The only experience I have of this sort of situation was on our first Broodlord kill for the first head and the completion of the questline. Now admittedly the gates had already been opened by this point and there was no real need except we decided we wanted to see the whole questline and that was only going to happen for one person.
I was an officer at the time, and we hadn't really thought out what we going to do. So we stopped and discussed it in raid, and almost immediately everyone suggested the GM should get it. There was no opposing voice, no roll and no fuss. However taking a leaf out of that one we have subsequently discussed openly how to assign the mount, so we have a policy in place in plenty of time.
I think it really doesn't matter how it's looted as long as on a difficult issue like this it's seen to be in an open and fair manner.
ThorinII Aug 21st 2007 9:33AM
IMO something like this should be open to everyone in the raid, enough riding skill or not. No one should have to use DKP on it either. But, that's really up to the guild leaders to decided ahead of time.
I don't care what was discussed in leader meetings prior to the drop, if it wasn't posted to the guild before hand and he said "we'll discuss it later" then took it without discussing it, he's a NINJA!
RJ Aug 21st 2007 10:04AM
Not the whole guild. I meant the raid. The whole guild would have been pointless to discuss it with.
Heirozoist Aug 21st 2007 10:51AM
Chad...Uxorious?
TotalBiscuit Aug 21st 2007 11:26AM
@67 - I can smell your rank hypocrisy from here. You're right, they don't know the members of this 'board', nor do they need to, because YOU don't know them. You're blindly attacking them on the basis of an article who's content cannot be verified, without even bothering to gather evidence and testimony from the guild in question as to what they thought of it. You'd make one lowsy lawyer.
Fact is, their opinion is the ONLY one that matters. Each guild functions differently, each guild believes certain things to be acceptable, and certain things to be unacceptable. If you do not like it, then you can leave that guild, that is your one and only right as a member of a guild, aside from those given to you by the grace of the leaders. Ultimate democracy right there, don't like it? Leave.
We've even got conspiracy theorists blithering about how this Uxorious guy is just chad in another disguise. You only have to check his writing style to know that that's blatantly not the case, the posts are completely different in tone and style. So basically, what you've got is 2 members from that guild supporting the action, one of whom is an officer, and you still think your opinion matters one copper?
Reality-check, it doesn't. This is rank lynch-mob behavior at it's highest level and you should all be ashamed of yourselves for this disgusting display of blind hatred and discrimination. Judge not, lest ye be judged, and keep your nose out of other people's business.
TB.
PyroAmos Aug 21st 2007 11:42AM
like I said, i would of given it to the MT, hes really the token of your progression (IMO is why they make the best guild leaders). would of first gone
/raid anyone have a problem with giving this to MT?
noones gonna say a word, they know what he gives up for them.
and to all you people crying /gquit grow up. you most obviously don't know what its like to run a guild, and most of you proably don't raid, don't know what it means to raidspec and in a guild with a bad leadership (mainly cause he/they lets cancers like you stay in his guild) where you cause tons of drama. A cosmetic upgrade like this is a non-issue to true raiders, let alone a decent friendly guild.
/roll is about the worst idea i've heard, your guild would look incredibally disorganized if you had some noob who just joined on his 3rd or 4th raid with you win it espeachally if he /gquit. If not to a officer, dkp, at least you know the winner has been around a while, and will likly not abandon your guild any time to soon. Should goto an officer though, IMO no doubt, Guild leader or main tank, IMO MT.
Makros Aug 21st 2007 11:46AM
Let me mediate some of the "you don't know the truth" mudslinging going on here. Its true that most of us were not there, and are relying only on what we have read in this post. That doesn't mean that people are not expressing valid concerns. In fact, most replies have taken into account what "Chad" (an apparent officer in the guild who happened to be present during the incident) has been posting. Now there is no way for us to know if he really is who he says he is, but he seems legit and thats the best we can hope for. If you want a more philosophical debate on "truth" find another forum.
Theserene Aug 21st 2007 1:16PM
The primary thing that concerns me is that the non-officers got NO input into this decision despite having spent god knows how long raiding.
Question I have is - is that in any way a fair system? It is one thing to say that everyone was 'ok' in the end with it (and I am betting a lot are actually biting their tongues) but quite another to put out the viewpoint that anyone who is not an officer gets NO say in ultra-rare loot drops.
At least rolling for it would have kept it democratic.