Summary of druid questions to the devs
by Dan O'Halloran 
Aug 24th 2007 at 3:30PM
In this earlier post, I highlighted a frustrated druid player who wrote a very extensive list of issues with the druid class. It covered PvE & PvP problems for Balance, Feral and Restoration specs. Tharfor, a Blizzard Europe Community Manager, has created a summary of that very lengthy document. From that summary, here are the questions he is going to take to the devs:
*Will druids ever be able to gain benefit from melee 'buffs' such as windfury or weapon procs?
*Are there any plans to re-evaluate the scaling and itemisation so that druids (of all specs) have their own loot upgrades to chase rather than stealing other classes' loot?
*Constantly shifting roles takes its toll on the druids mana pool, are there any plans to adjust the costs/penalties to make shapeshifting 'easier' and more viable in longer battles?
*Can the restoration tree be looked at so that druids are able to be dedicated, and useful, healers whilst still having the ability to play the game alone outside of raid situations?
*Can the balance tree have more burst DPS options to remove the tediousness of the current slow and steady output of damage?
His full summary after the jump.
This is my summary of the original post where I have picked up on the main issues and concerns and reworded them slightly. I have then picked out the recurring ideas and formed them into questions at the bottom. These are the questions that we will be trying to find answers to from a development level.
I have also added a few personal thoughts and comments in italics, just because I can.
If I've missed anything significant, please let me know.
Feral
Feral druids in PvE are concerned that the items available to them in end-game are few and far between. They feel that they are being left behind as other DPS classes, such as rogues, continue to out-damage them.
There appear to be no items designed from a druid point of view in instances beyond Karazhan and Serpentshrine Cavern – druids are forced to chase rogue items.
The is also growing support for druids to gain benefit from haste ratings, weapon procs, enchantments, and other melee 'buffs' such as windfury totems. The druid community generally agree that this would help them to keep up with other DPS classes in the current end-game.
These problems also affect tanking druids and are considered to be an issue of generally poor scaling.
In PvP, feral druids are facing similar issues with no druid orientated cloaks and rings (note: druids feel that strength, agility, and a little intellect are more important than raw attack power in this regard). The bonuses available on the druid armor sets are considered to be weak when compared to other classes.
Restoration
The restoration tree is considered 'too full' and any druid who spends his points there has to make difficult decisions for healing and will never have any points left to spare for solo-ing purposes. This is a problem for most 'raid' orientated specs, but it still considered a problem nonetheless.
((Tharfor's comment: if you are in a raiding guild and consider yourself a serious player, surely you have the money to change your talent point allocation whenever it is necessary (every day perhaps). I mean that for all classes, btw, not just druids.))
Restoration in PvP is considered to be very strong but is dependant on sustaining heal-over-time spells and 'hiding' out of line of sight before being targeted by opposing DPS classes. Many players feel that this is a sort of exploit and that without it restoration druids would lose their survivability.
((Tharfor's comment: if it's an exploit, it would be punishable and eventually fixed. Perhaps the arenas were designed with line of sight in mind? We know that some boss encounters were...))
Items for a restoration druid are not as weak as those for feral, but many feel there is still room for improvement.
Balance
The balance tree has seen a lot of attention in recent times and is now a viable caster DPS option. Again, however, it is felt that the mana pool is too low and DPS must be sacrificed to avoid running out.
This may be resolved in the upcoming reworking of itemisation for balance druids.
((Tharfor's comment: surely being able to moderate your own DPS in relation to your mana and working with your 'support' classes is the intention? I don't think any class should be able to go 'full nuke' and not suffer the consequences if the target doesn't die quickly.))
Balance druids in PvP are few and far between despite some good crowd control options. A recurring request is that druids are able to control the treants summoned by Force of Nature much like mage elementals or warlock and hunter pets. There is also concern that despite being a DPS caster, there is no 'fun' involved as there are no 'cooldown' abilites (like Presence of Mind for mages) which create big crits and reduce other casting times.
((Tharfor's comment: again, isn't this a feature of multiplayer? If everyone was dealing out erratic burst DPS, it would be too chaotic for other players on your team to predict.))
Role
It has been said that the role of a druid is be inter-changeable in any given situation, however the community feels that the mana costs of constantly shifting to deal with different threats is too high and a druids survivability is significantly lower than other classes who perform only one task.
Concerning talents, it is felt that even when dedicating all talent points to a single role, a druid cannot match the power of 'parent class'. Whilst this was likely an intended feature for a hybrid class, it has essential removed the desire for people to choose druids when the 'parent class' is available to fill the same role.
###
What do you think? Are those the major issues facing druids today? Did they miss anything critical?
Filed under: Druid, News items
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
Tridus Aug 24th 2007 3:41PM
"Can the restoration tree be looked at so that druids are able to be dedicated, and useful, healers whilst still having the ability to play the game alone outside of raid situations? "
This also applies to Holy Priests and Holy Paladins. Very few mobs can be healed to death, and all three classes in healing spec do no real amount of damage. (I didn't include Resto Shaman because they can still slap on a 2h weapon and Windfury stuff. Its not uber, but it doesn't suck like these three.)
Adam Aug 24th 2007 3:45PM
@1: I think what the poster is referring to when asking about the resto tree is that most resto druids I know (which, i admit, is very few) have to put all 61 talent points into the resto tree.
Ryan Aug 24th 2007 3:53PM
I don't understand why feral druids in cat form think they should be able to compete with other dps classes when in the same tree they just need to switch gear and they can tank extremely well.
I do believe the resto tree needs some serious love, especially in the form of aggro reduction and solo grinding. As for Moonkin, I do think they need some work although I have never played as a moonkin so I'm not qualified to say so.
I don't believe hybrids should be able to spec fully into a certain tree and compete just fine with a pure class of that role though. Being able to do that just would make the pure class obsolete when say, a cat does the same damage as a rogue but switches out in the fight and tosses a rebirth, HOTs up a healer in danger and throws in an innervate.
Mages SHOULD do the most ranged damage. Rogues SHOULD do the most melee damage. Warriors SHOULD tank the best. Priests SHOULD...wait they are too awesome in shadow so nevermind..
Kryz Aug 24th 2007 4:02PM
I'm not ussually one who says this, but Druids are a hybrid class, and shouldn't beable to do everything like this is asking for.
Currently:
Feral can tank and DPS. Not the best, but decent. That's a combo no other class has. Being ablt to tank and switch to DPS in a moment is amazing.
Resto is a bit weak with soloing, but what holy spec isn't? I can understand that holy pally DPS is better, but only in comparison to their other trees, which doesn't say much.
Balance is decent DPS, but you get the armor bonus, so you can take hits. Plus they have a root.
IMO, druids are the best hybrid class in this game, and really have very little room to be complaining. People need to realize that by getting the flexability, you will need to give up other aspects.
Psyclerk Aug 24th 2007 4:08PM
@Tridus, RE: resto shamans. They can't use a 2hander unless they have the talent for it, which is not in the resto tree. I have a resto shaman and think it would be kind of silly to do resto/enhancement. I think it's usually resto/elemental (easier to use one set of gear that way). Just a nit.
@Ryan: You said exactly what I was thinking. Hybrid classes fill holes in a group. When they replace another class (ie doing more dps than a rogue, tanking better than a warrior), then we have a problem.
Azgaard Aug 24th 2007 8:05PM
One very easy way to fix this is to have instance-specific talent specs. Take a priest. In solo questing they are more likely to favor a shadow build to help with DPS and be defensible in world PVP. However, a shadow build may not be viable for Karazhan or any other raid instance where priest spots are usually taken up by Healers. Blizzard should allow players inside an instance to access an alternate talent build where you gain all the new spells instantly for that build without paying a respec cost. The new build would be optional when you enter the instance so a shadow priest could stay shadow if that build would be more beneficial for a particular instance (or even just a single boss). This would allow greater flexibility in exploring your class without constantly having to respec and pay out the nose for it.
shippy Aug 24th 2007 4:11PM
Having just run up, a druid in feral, I can say I don't think my Cat DPS should be buffed. I shouldn't be up there with hunters/mages/rogues, those are the damage dealers, there's a TON of utility from the druid class (waaaaaay better than Shaman, and to some extent Paladin).
It's another case of hybrid classes wanted to do each role better than dedicated classes and that shouldn't happen (having a shaman too, please do help them)
The best part of Druid and the reason it's most balanced of the hybrid classes is that it *can* tank in endgame and it *can* heal in endgame and it *can* nuke in endgame. Should it be the best at each of these? No, the versitilty should be enough to make up for a little less DPS.
Todd Aug 24th 2007 4:12PM
Rogues will always out damage every class, as Blizzard has stated that Rogues set the cap for DPS.
Steve Aug 24th 2007 4:19PM
I have tried all three trees on my Druid although most of my levels have been in feral as it’s just the best tree prior to the Balance tree-rework. For feral you can be a good rogue or warrior with the same gear and toss in a heal as necessary. It needs no buffing. The one thing it does need is to be able to take advantage of weapon procs of all kinds and maybe more agro generation from swipe (there are few enough prot spec’d warriors and paladins as it is for groups).
The Balance tree makes you a reasonable healer and good at DPS, mana recovery is an issue. And the point about no class should be able to not have mana issues in a long fight isn’t true. Unless I’m getting beat on with my lvl 70 warlock I can end any length of fight with a full health bar and full mana bar. The only way I can’t is if I’m taking so much damage I can’t lifetap/drain life to recover or my pet is getting beat on so bad I need to heal them while burning down the mob ASAP.
The Resto needs the most help. I just recently respec’d resto to try out Tree of Life. There is almost nothing in the talent tree that would make you reasonably effective at doing anything solo. There is one talent that ups your melee damage and there is OOC but as a primary healer it’s a waste since the tree is so heavy with good healing talents. At 61 pts resto I was still one shy of what I wanted. Not even close to that for Balance and Feral.
pumeler Aug 24th 2007 6:28PM
imo, druids may have the right to complain about a few different things (like the windfury proc), but arguing that they should be able to keep up in dps or healing with other classes is not valid. You rolled a class that has extreem versatility. I do not see priest complaining that they need armor buffs so they can tank, I don't see rogues complaining that they need healing spells, I haven't seem too many warrior screaming about not having stealth. Point is, druids get nearly every aspect of what WoW has to offer, just a slightly watered down version, and that is how it should be. If you wanted to tank, roll a warrior. If you wanted to melee dps, roll a rogue. Caster dps, roll a mage. Healing, roll a priest. Think of druids in terms of how Blizzard does the itemization. If you do one thing, you should do it well (ie rogues, mages, and warlocks). The more stuff you can do, the more watered down it should be. Sorry druids, you rolled the most versitile class in the game and you can plug into 4 different rolls.
One gripe that I can say I totally agree on is that fact that it costs too much mana to change forms. It should cost less to switch. This would fix many issues. Say for instance a oomkin could switch to cat and melee dps and let their mana regen. It's not pretty, but it's and option that doesn't in a round about way nerf every other class in the game. If druids could be leet in any situation, why would anyone roll any other class?
Sindral Aug 24th 2007 4:31PM
My old main is a 70 feral druid. I think these are all valid concerns for the individual specs, obviously a healing class would want options for playing solo, and obviously a dps class could benifit from procs/enchantments/etc. But as other commenters have pointed out, druids are a hybrid. The trick to making hybrid classes balance with the dedicated classes is to have them perform their roles in a different way. Resto Druids have HoTs, efficient, but slow. Not to say that they're not useful: In the BGs before TBC I always had the highest healing for both sides. Feral druids also have their ups and downs. Kat druids (they're for fite) have decent damage and crit chance, but are gimped on utility, and bear druids have little mitigation and utility but are huge meat shields. The main difference is that you can switch mid-fight. There were several times in the BGs where switching from tree to bear saved my life, and when I was feral, it's always nice to pop out and throw a couple HoTs on before shifting back and fighting some more. And I think a feral druid and an demonology lock are one of the best combos, lots of utility and almost no down time thanks to HoT+lifetap.
Anyways, I do agree with the amount of mana needed to shapeshift, if Blizz is unwilling to make a class change I think a "reduce mana cost of shapeshifting by X" enchant or jewelcrafting trinket would be nice.
Green Armadillo Aug 24th 2007 4:41PM
I wonder what portion of hybrid classes' problems are caused by damage meters being a poor metric for their value. For example, the balance changes requested basically amount to "more DPS pls", which they feel they need to be worth a raid slot. Thing is, a balance druid boosts other players' DPS (which the OTHER players receive damage meter credit for), has a battle res (and again, the resurrected player's contributions are recorded for themselves rather than credited to the druid, without whom they would have stayed down), and yes, in an absolute emergency with almost all the other healers down, they could drop moonkin form and help heal.
Like it or not, these abilities have to be counted against the hybrid's contribution to groups. Thus my wondering whether the problem isn't that hybrids don't contribute enough, but rather that groups (and sometimes the players of the hybrids themselves) don't appreciate their contributions enough.
WatcherZero Aug 24th 2007 4:41PM
First the Italics at the top, I disagree with everything except for lack of burst balance dmg, they have adequate mana and talents to reduce cost of shifting, unique itemisation (Who else uses feral combat skill or attack power?) and they have the best dual use talents, talents that increase healing ability while also boosting feral abilities, no other class has dual use talents like this, or such concentrated talent trees not requiring hybrid builds.
The only points I will agree with is haste should effect druids too, and possibly slightly better defense skill on feral items so they dont rely exclusivley on armor and HP, they can stop some of those crushing blows and crits too.
Tridus Aug 24th 2007 4:43PM
@Adam
Its true, but a typical Priest healing build is 23/38, all of which are spent on healing talents. Except that Priests have two healing trees and Druids have one, the result is exactly the same: all 61 points spent on healing talents.
They seem to be adressing that with +healing adding some +damage as well in a future patch. That should at least make it so that a healer in Tier 6 doesn't have to switch to a Mage in greens for increased grinding ability.
@Psyclerk
Oops, yeah. Thanks. :)
darkakuma Aug 24th 2007 5:01PM
Im a fellow balance druid (850) spell damage, i dont care about the mana issue.... i just wish balance druids got a POM like mages... that would rape in pvp/arena
Adam Aug 24th 2007 5:09PM
@Tridus;
When I talked about the 61 points in resto thing I was more making a comparison to Paladins and Shamans than Priests. Paladins with their 41/20/0 build don't have to put all 61 points into holy, they get to put 20 points in protection to give themselves more survivability. Shamans don't have to put 61 points into resto either, with a 0/5/42 base spec they have a bunch of points they can spend other places while still being awesome healers.
Compare that to Druids and Priests who have to spend all their points on healing stuff and not have any to spend on other purpose things (like solo'ing/survivability, etc.).
Mainstay Aug 24th 2007 5:30PM
I think the real complaint about Restoration on Druids isn't that it's "so full" that you put all your points there, it's the fact that by the time you've gone completely Resto based, there's no point in putting points in any other tree. Unlike most other classes, there are very few useful talents low in the druid trees, all the best talents start high. So really you get stuck doing all resto with maybe a little balance (Nature's Grasp) or Balance/Resto, Feral/Resto.
As for Ferals, coming from someone who's played one for a long time, yes now we can actually tank and be pretty successful at it. But our Feral gear is really wonky in design. We're basically damage sponges with a lot of dodge. I know some people have tried to go out of their way to get the crit reduction defense rating, but the fact that our tier gear is all stats (and a little hit rating) makes it really difficult to get to that point (mainly via gems). We're the strongest tanks in the low end stuff, like normal end game instances and most trash in Kara, but the weakest in later content cause of our gear options.
Feral DPS has never really seemed a problem to me, Personally I'm almost always in the top 5, Cower is so abysmally weak, I can't even imagine what would happen if we dealt more damage.
porovaara Aug 24th 2007 5:33PM
There is the common misconception repeated here again that a damage spec (ie kitty) druid is just as good as a full on tank spec druid. While a kitty druid who has good tanking gear makes a suitable tank for five man content you won't be PUGing heroics or tanking stuff at kara+ with a kitty spec unless you have insane tanking gear.
Is a feral regardless of spec better than a fury warrior trying to tank in 5 man content, sure. But when you go above this (and really it starts in the 70s 5 mans) there does start to be quite a distinction.
Druid also definitely do *not* need any more defence or resilence on pieces. We only need 315 def to get uncrittable with talents and once you gear up some you will find yourself with extreme excess. It's not uncommon to see a tanking druid have 320-330 def and 30-50 res as well, those are simply wasted stat points.
I've always wondered why Blizzard continues to cling to the mantra, "druids get no OOC res because with rogues they could skip content." This no longer rings true with the multitude of mobs which can see through stealth. Hell give it an insane reagent cost, make it require talent points, just get, it, done.
Siedre Aug 24th 2007 5:51PM
The Restoration tree is too cluttered? I can't tell you how much I disagree with that statement. After getting every talent you need to be a successful, healthy, raiding Tree, you have only spent at most 43-44 points. (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=MZZxxcLcq0jst) A solid, high numbered Dreamstate healer requires a little choosiness between some talents in Resto, but it definitely needs no overhaul. (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=MtMrzicsRhZZxxcbgsM)
On the other hand, Feral IS cluttered. The problem lies deep, after 30 points have been spent. All the useful utility skills are down there, and to be a successful pvper you have to pick and choose 1 or 2 of the 3: Survival of the Fittest, Primal Tenacity, and Predatory Instincts. That's on top of getting full Heart of the Wild and Leader of the Pack. The way the tree is built, and built around the other trees to get things like Omen of Clarity and Control of Nature, you simply have no choices.
Karl Aug 24th 2007 6:42PM
"Concerning talents, it is felt that even when dedicating all talent points to a single role, a druid cannot match the power of 'parent class'. Whilst this was likely an intended feature for a hybrid class, it has essential removed the desire for people to choose druids when the 'parent class' is available to fill the same role."
I agree somewhat with this statement, but I do still see that Druids offer support in the form of buffs (one of the best in the game), +crit auras, and other support such as innervate, etc.
I have a Feral Druid currently. He will remain feral until I have all of the Druid gear to fill different roles that I wish. I can get good healing/dps equipment while tanking instances, because I am usually the only Druid and rogues don't want healing leather. They also do not want Tanking gear. So, I can say that I will be able to transition a lot more smoothly to another roll other than Feral. I do not care for Druid healers in 5-man, because of the rezzing issues. Instead, if I were to respec Restoration, I would do it in support of Raiding. Again, I understand that I am a support class. Although to be fair, my Druid is not my main, and I do not feel as strongly about the issue as a person who has been Drood the whole time.
I would say that if I were to complain about anything in the Druid class, it is the inability to rez others more than once without waiting out a heinous cooldown. I don't think this would make a Druid over-powered as a healer in any respect. It actually allows a druid to level as a healer .I know that some have done it anyways, but let me assure you that your group did not like you when you could not rez them, and Warlocks see Soulstoning a Druid as a waste of effort except on boss fights where the Druid battle rez is awesome. I should also state that I think the Battle Rez should remain on a cooldown. I just feel that Druids should also be given an out-of-combat rez as well.