Killing your grandfather: What happens if you wipe in the Caverns of Time?

The Caverns of Time are a pretty neat place. With the recent announcement of Old Stratholme, we'll get to go back and preserve the timeline through four different events: Medivh's opening of the Dark Portal, Thrall's escape from Durnholde Keep, Arthas's purging of the city of Stratholme, and Azeroth's victory at the Battle for Mount Hyjal. The mysterious Infinite Dragonflight is trying to disrupt the timelines for unknown reasons, and we have to keep things the way they were.
But why? Yes, any change in the past will have a ripple effect on the future, bla bla bla, but there are people who would definitely prefer that events went down differently in three of the four CoT instances. Blizzard doesn't show us what happens when we wipe, fail or simply choose not to preserve things in CoT ... so we've had to fill in the blanks ourselves.
The Battle for Mount Hyjal: Okay, no one really wants to see history changed for this one. Heck, it even looks like the Infinite Dragonflight may not want to change it, since we see none of their members in the battle. If history was changed ... actually, I'm not sure what the Burning Legion really would do if they won the war. Destroy all the mortal races in their quest to bring chaos to the universe? Enslave all the playable characters and force them to become an invading force for another world? Man, that would be awesome. For the Legion. Not so much for Azeroth. The Burning Legion winning at Hyjal is like a big Game Over sign for the Warcraft universe.
Escape from Durnholde Keep: More than a few members of the Alliance would probably want Thrall to remain in captivity. Sure, they'd miss his assistance at Mount Hyjal, but they wouldn't have to deal with the greater threat of a cold war with a unified Horde later on. However, it's unlikely that the leaders of the Alliance would want to stop Thrall, because they're mostly smart enough to realize that they may need his help again in the future. Staghelm might be pigheaded and/or racist enough to do it.
If Thrall never escaped from Durnholde, there would be no united Horde. The orcs and the trolls would probably have been hunted to extinction by the Alliance, the tauren would still be nomadic, and the undead would be holed up and surrounded in Undercity. No Horde leaves us with two options: the Burning Legion wins at Mount Hyjal due to Azeroth's lack of forces (see above), or the Alliance wins a narrow victory. Daelin Proudmoore is still alive and the Alliance is totally dominant over Azeroth. This sounds nice, but eventually they'd begin fighting among themselves, plus they'd have to grind twice as hard to open the AQ gates.
Black Morass: This is another one where the Horde would want to preserve the timeline, while some of the Alliance would want it destroyed. Medivh opening the Dark Portal is seen as a bad thing for both sides. But let's think about it. You wipe in the Black Morass and the dragons kill Medivh before he opens the portal. The Shadow Council is stuck on Draenor, but the Council and the Legion are still up for invading. Either the Shadow Council finds another pawn and everything goes as planned, or Kil'jaeden gets frustrated, says screw the plan, gets rid of the orcs and finds a new portaly way to Azeroth directly, this time making sure to leave the night elves until every other race is dead. The human nations never unite and are unprepared for the Legion.
Even if Azeroth managed to beat the Legion, we'd be screwed again at Mount Hyjal. Medivh dying before he was supposed to means he probably wouldn't be redeemed enough to come back as the Prophet, which means no one gets warned about the Burning Legion, which means no one's prepared for the Third War. Oh, and no Horde either.
Old Stratholme: Okay, this is the big tough one. Killing Arthas during Strat would be like killing Hitler in art school. You'd save thousands of lives. But this could go either way. If you killed Arthas, Uther would have lived, the Sunwell wouldn't have been destroyed, Illidan would never have become a demon and probably wouldn't have been asked to serve the Legion, Sylvanas would be alive and happy, and the Lich King would have lost his strength and died without a successor. In fact, if we killed Arthas, both the Scourge and the Illidari would likely be defunct.
However, as noted in the above thread, killing Arthas could upset the whole balance of things. If Arthas is dead, he doesn't tell Illidan about consuming the Skull of Gul'dan, which means that Mal'ganis and Tichondrius are alive at the Battle of Mount Hyjal (assuming someone else summons Archimonde into this world), which means one of the two is likely to alert Archimonde to the wisps being A TRAP!!! As Tarsonis says in the thread, "You could add the entirety of Lordaeron to Azeroth's fighting strength and I'm still taking the Legion in the Third War if Tichondrious lives, because nothing was stopping Archimonde except his own arrogance, which Tich likely could have fixed." Even if killing Arthas stops anyone from being strong enough to summon Archimonde, that just means that Archimonde would still be alive ... and controlling the Scourge after Ner'zhul lost his power. Not fun.
So, it looks like messing up any of the four instances could somehow cause the Burning Legion to win at Mount Hyjal. That might be a big clue as to who's behind the Infinite Dragonflight.
What do you think would happen if you failed in each of the Caverns of Time instances? Do you think that it would be worth it to kill Medivh or Arthas, or would you consider it too risky? What other CoT instances would you like to see?






Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
Baluki Aug 27th 2007 1:26PM
Without Thrall, the Horde probably never would have re-formed. It would just be scattered Orc clans throughout the Eastern Kingdoms, and they would've eventually been "cleaned up" by the Alliance.
One of the few "good" troll tribes (the Darkspears) would have been wiped out, and the Tauren would have continued to do their own thing, unaware of world events. So one of the three armies at the Battle of Mt. Hyjal is missing. And since that battle was all about delaying Archimonde until the wisps were ready, he would have gotten to the tree too soon, absorbed its power, and become too powerful to be stopped.
And really, what's so bad about the Horde? They're basically just a bunch of misfits trying to find their own place in the world. The xenophobic Alliance players seem to be the only ones asking the "why rescue Thrall" question.
Stergan Aug 27th 2007 1:42PM
The answer is in the title of this article. "Killing you grandfather" is a thought experiment used by David Lewis to explain that changing the past would be impossible. The rub of his argument is that, while one might be physically capable of killing one's own grandfather - with, say, a gunshot - they would find it epistemically impossible, because to do so would create a contradiction - history would read "in the past, my grandfather was and wasn't murdered". Two different conditions, he argues, can't coexist in the past.
So really, I guess any of the events in the Caverns of Time are misguided attempts by whoever is behind the Infinite Dragonflight to change the past. Even if the dragons manage to kill a group in Durnholde, some other force will keep them from altering the past. Same goes for the Black Morass.
Come to think of it, the Caverns of Time might be exactly what the "some other force" is, as there's always another group coming in ready to attempt Durnholde or Black Morass. If one "force" fails to stop the Dragonflight form changing the past, another one will.
Dracula Jones Aug 27th 2007 1:41PM
But if Arthas dies at Stratholme, then Kel'Thuzad isn't resurrected, there's no siege of Dalaran, and Archimonde isn't summoned!
Heavy!
Rockstar Aug 27th 2007 1:44PM
"They'd have to grind twice as hard to open up the AQ gates." LMAO!
Keith Heymann Aug 29th 2007 10:16AM
__ Thermonuclear war __ the end all answer to the problem :)
Hollywood Ron Aug 27th 2007 1:53PM
Is this the episode where Fry goes back in time and becomes his own grandfather, thereby losing the Delta brainwave? I like that one!
-----
Ron
http://flektor-blog.com
Smurk Aug 27th 2007 2:08PM
"Oh, a lesson in not changing history from Mr. 'I Ganked My Own Grandfather'!"
Baluki Aug 27th 2007 2:12PM
I think it should also be noted that time behaves differently in the Warcraft universe than it does in real life. In WoW, time is something that needs controlling and protecting, and people can move back and forth through it.
Benor Aug 27th 2007 2:23PM
Well, to address a minor point in this particular post-it's quite possible that the Infinite Dragonflight don't have a guiding hand beyond dragons. After all, if they stopped the Dark Portal from being opened, that means Alexstrasa would probably never have been enslaved...
As for Stratholme and keeping Thrall imprisoned? Both of them would probably prevent Arthas from becoming a death knight. With no escaping orcs as a distraction, Arthas, Jaina and Uther might not have been as isolated when the Scourge was getting started, and having someone who could clearly keep Arthas in check might have saved his soul. The same for killing Arthas at Stratholme-he dies before he gets a chance to really turn evil, so he becomes a martyr instead. The human kingdoms focus on this whole undead issue, and possibly stamp it out completely. Oh, and might I mention that in both scenarios, we don't see Arthas killing and enslaving Sapphiron?
As short sighted as their goals might be, I can see some dragons who just want to save some relatives, rather than thinking about how changing history could end up getting them all killed.
lordfrikk Aug 27th 2007 2:22PM
Killing Medivh? I think NOT.
Nafaras Aug 27th 2007 2:29PM
I killed a level 1 snake in BM. After I zoned out I had boobs and epic mount. *_*
crazyterran Aug 27th 2007 3:20PM
Thrall's horde wasn't the one distracting Uther and Arthas..it was a demon cult of escaped horde.
Arthas dying at Stratholme? Quel'thalas would still be around, Kael wouldn't be a TK Boss, Sylvanas would be perfectly alive, and Lordaeron wouldn't have fallen (Because Arthas' killing of his own father brought it's full destruction).
Also, Arthas' wouldn't beable to Ressurect Kel'thuzad, thus no Archimonde...and Illidan still imprisoned.
No Illidari, No Scourge, No Forsaken, Alliance Blood Elves, Horde and Night Elves at war, Stratholme a Zombie Infested not burning city. (Not a big difference..)
Nothing wrong with arthas dying, i'll kill him myself!
Oblivion Aug 27th 2007 3:42PM
There are a number of old Warcraft I quests that would be fun to revisit via the Caverns of Times. For example, rescuing Sir Lothar from the Deadmines (alliance), or rescuing Garona (horde) from Northshire Abby so she can assassinate King Llane. How about the alliance raid of Blackhand's Temple of the Damned (found in the Black Morass)? Or, the horde raid of Stormwind at the end of the first war. Those would all be great. And, it would give the alliance/horde some faction-unique instances once again.
Anywhere in WoW that you find ruins, there is usually a quest from prior games to accompany it. The destruction of Auchindoin happens in Warcraft II: Beyond the Dark Portal for example. Any of the town sieges from past wars are great venues for CoT instances in my opinion.
A War of the Ancients CoT event would be really cool as well, since that pre-dates all the old RTS games.
Scruffy Aug 27th 2007 3:42PM
Comments 5&6 ftw
rich Aug 27th 2007 4:34PM
They should have a rare spawn in BM, a level 1 critter Butterfly. If you kill it, the druid in your group gets an upgrade to his/her Hurricane spell.
Valethas Aug 27th 2007 5:10PM
Some people may wonder why we shouldn't attempt to kill Arthas in the New Old Strat instead of assisting him I have a very simple answer for this. The Bronze Dragonflight are worry warts and if we were to change the past (instead of keeping as is) we do not know if a major Apocalypse will happen and Azeroth shall cease to exist. So the bronze think it would be better to keep us in a existence where the world hasn't gone BOOM as of yet.
Dracula Jones Aug 27th 2007 5:26PM
@15: Would they be OK with it if we casually maim him instead? How much damage could he possibly do without thumbs, for example?
Fletch Aug 27th 2007 6:30PM
I still don't really see any point to having the Infinite Dragonflight. We still could've been given a reason to go without making them up. In fact, all the Bronze Dragonflight had to say is "Five years ago a future you from five years in the future went back in time and helped out at Mt Hyjal. Now it's five years after that battle and you have to travel back or you'll create a time paradox. Trust me, it makes sense. We're dragons."
shkss Aug 27th 2007 7:30PM
Maybe if we went further enough back in time we could stop the creation of murlocs. Hm, but then I suppose the alliance wouldn't have them to grind on in elwynn and undead in tirisfal and most other races too, meaning they might not be as strong. And also, Blizzard wouldn't have murky's and stuff to give out so less people would buy the expansions and go to blizzcon (perhaps) and Blizzard mightt lose its inspiration and not even make CoT and then we wouldn't be having this article and stuff and all of WoW would be different!!!..............my head hurts......
Benor Aug 27th 2007 11:57PM
@crazyterran:
I meant the Orcs who escaped to Kalimdor were a distraction for the Humans overall, not that they specifically distracted Arthas and Jaina.