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All of the latest Mists of Pandaria news"The Karazhan mistake"
by Mike Schramm 
Sep 3rd 2007 at 1:00PM
AFK Gamer's got a great post up about what he calls "The Karazhan Mistake." At BlizzCon, and now in Leipzeig, Blizzard has been patting themselves on the back for the 10man raid of Karazhan-- it's clearly the most popular raid in the expansion (does that have anything to do with the fact that it's the first raid most guilds do?), and so they say the 10man raid idea of theirs is the bomb. Along with the new Zul'Aman, we can expect to see more 10mans in Wrath of the Lich King.But AFK says they've learned the wrong lesson. While Karazhan is definitely popular, creating a 10man raid in the guild progression path (remember, UBRS didn't start as a 10man, and it wasn't really a progression instance) was a mistake. It's more or less where all the guild drama and frustration in the expansion has come from-- guilds with only 10 people are rare and far between, and so most guilds have to schedule and run multiple raid IDs just to get everyone through there. And now (eight months after the expansion has dropped), while most guilds have finally got Karazhan (and all that raid coordination) down pat, they're dealing with another problem: beefing back up to 25 for the rest of the raids. Blizzard's making guilds jump through all these hoops, and deal with all of this group A/B drama, and they're citing Karazhan as a success?
AFK's solution is a simple one: lower the cooldown on raid IDs. (His other solution is to have raid IDs be guildwide, but letting only 10 people in a guild run Karazhan weekly is a terrible idea.) That would more or less take the raid out of progression (in essence, turn it into UBRS), and let you go there whenever you had 10 people ready and willing, leaving the real raiding to the 25 mans.
Personally, I love Karazhan. It's a great dungeon with some cool bosses and lore, and Blizzard's right: it's how raids should be done. It's just too bad that, by creating a great 10 man in a world full of 25 man raids, they caused guilds (especially guilds just starting to raid) so much trouble.w
[ via Mystic Worlds ]
Filed under: Analysis / Opinion, Guilds, Blizzard, Raiding
Reader Comments (Page 2 of 3)
bobomega Sep 3rd 2007 3:48PM
I'm not sure why it is so hard to grasp that by the time your guild is running 2 groups that you can rotate people out, or have at least 5 people who no longer need to go.
"hey can I go for so and so boss, he has the only thing I want in there"
"Nah I don't need to go to kara this week, unless you need me to fill a spot"
so you take a couple of the more dedicated people that know all the fights, and take the people you want to gear up. the ones that dont need anything wont get any loot, and the ones who need it get it.
but, yes i guess if the guild cant already fill 2 kara groups at once, any 25man will be a bit tricky to fill. 2 groups and a waiting list / sub list, is a good indication.
Dave Sep 3rd 2007 3:58PM
I think it's idiotic to say Karazhan was the mistake..
Everything after, was the mistake. 25 is a crappy number. (I think I've said it here before...) Not 10, since tons of guilds can get that together, but 25. It's not a progressive number from 10. Before the raids went from 20 to 40. Easy progression of two groups to merge to one, or an entire guild full of people to at least be mostly on the same page.
10 to 25? It's not very smart. It's not a logical progression, so it's very stupid to have the raids tuned to 25 people. It should have been 20. Period. SSC/TK should have been 20 man raids, Gruul/Mag maybe 10, maybe 20. The rest, either keep them at 20 (just make it harder, really we don't mind) or jump it back up to 40 so you've got logical progressions.
The reason more guilds don't progress past Kara, is because of the stupid raid size numbers and all the bullshit drama it causes. That's the mistake, not Karazhan. Karazhan is what Blizzard should absolutely do more of.
Birthmark Sep 3rd 2007 4:43PM
Holy crap. An article I actually agree with? 10 man raids are great. But they DID make a mistake by not allowing us to go straight into SSC. Reducing raid teams from 40 to 25 was a bad enough shock to thousands of guilds. Then forcing us to split our raid team even more to 2-3 groups of 10 was even worse.
They need to learn this lesson and not make the same mistake in the next expansion. And it seems they're kinda... doing that with Naxx. For all we know they'll make us run 10 man raids to get attuned to Naxx tho. But some guilds have alreay done Naxx before. Doing a nerfed version of it will be a bit anti-climatic to say the least. Would you guys like to do a nerfed version of Molten Core again? Didn't think so.
Naxx is a GREAT instance. It's my favorite in fact. Most people will be stoked to see it finally. But they should make an additional 25 man instance that a guild can jump into right away. But I don't see that happening.
I liked the old system. To get into MC you just had to gear up through 5 mans. You didn't need full epic gear. They need to do the same thing for the first 25 man raid in WOTLK. And no crazy attunements.
Ted Sep 3rd 2007 5:11PM
I agree 100%.
Kara was a big mistake.
The starting raid progression in BC in general has been a mistake.
crsh Sep 3rd 2007 5:19PM
I completely agree as well; going from 40 (pre-TBC raids) to 10 (entry level raid in TBC) then back up to 25 people (raid progression). It's almost as if the only equation Blizz made was that Kara was for the guilds that were limited to doing ZG and AQ20, not the 40-man raiding guilds.
Except hardcore guilds had to go through Kara as well anyway, and no they did not put together 4 groups of 10 to run simultaneously.
Bad judgment.
Sylythn Sep 3rd 2007 9:55PM
It's been said before - but I've got to reiterate...the math of going from 5-10-20-40 in pre-BC raiding, and then going from 5-10-25 in TBC doesn't match up. In pre-BC you had simple progression - two 5-man teams made up your 10 man. Two 10-man teams made up your 20 man, and two 20-man teams go you to 40. Now most guilds are able to manage and run 2 10-man groups in Kara, but that doesn't get you to 25. You've got 1/2 a Kara group of stragglers. So you either scramble to find 5 more once you're set for the next level, or you run a 3rd kara and leave half of that team out of the next level. That just doesn't make sense.
Beaverius Sep 3rd 2007 5:49PM
You know, I gotta say I am pretty much in totaly agreement with Mike Schramm. Kara has destroyed my guild and countless others becausae teh transition from 10 to 25 man's is extremely difficult.
And Kara tends to bring together so many little "kara guilds" that can never progress past it, they break up, drama is caused etc. etc. etc. etc.
ONe of the commenters said that to go from Kara to Gruul,s you need 3, not 2, kara groups and I would also have to agree with that.
having said all that, because my guild has been unable to recruit non-retards for 25 man content, we have sort of just resided to the facft tht we will never see 25 man content and enjoy other aspects of the game such as pvp and lvling alts which we will need.
Case in point is that despite all the good 10 man's have been and will be, the transition kills guilds
Ngnsewa Sep 3rd 2007 6:56PM
Haha, I thought this was about Opera and how the Legacy (hunter axe) is rare drop from a rare boss.
That is the Kara mistake I think the worst.
I do see where people are coming from tho. Kara, a 10-man is a stupid way to bridge from instances to 25man raids. Quite simply, there needed to be a 25man instance the same level of difficulty as Kara is/was.
Problem Solvered!
kelly Sep 3rd 2007 6:41PM
I can't even believe anyone in their right mind can even remotely agree with this article. Run 2 kara groups and have subs. End of story. Not everyone will be able to raid every week, you can't just have 10 or 20 raiders exactly anyway. Sub people in and out by what gear they need where, it's not brain surgery. If your guild members aren't mature enough to understand the needs for guild progression... get more mature guild members.
if you can't get 2 kara groups going per week that easily clear kara in a night, you shouldn't even be thinking of 25 mans.
kitterz Sep 3rd 2007 11:52PM
I for one dont see any problem or need for bliz to stop making 10 man raids. if the guilds are having drama that's their problem (last i knew, part of being an adult is being able to take care of his/her own business). crying to bliz about guild drama is like running to mommy every time Billy won't share his toys.
Krianna Sep 4th 2007 12:03AM
Look, ten mans are GREAT for the more casual folks. They allow SOME kind of an end game for those who can't raid, or who have zero desire to find 39 or 24 other folks with the same schedules for multiple days.
If you play with three people most of the time-- which would be a core group, healer/DPS/Tank-- and decide to work on Kara, then you only need to get three more people per friend to have enough and spares.
Frankly, given the massive stupidity flowing from Raid Guilds, I wouldn't mind if more of them tanked.
In a nutshell:
"LOLz ur jelous uv leet skizl. lrn2ply, noob."
*meet ten mans*
Oh, wait, something that challenges THEM? NERF NERF NERF!!!! We can't manage to organize this, it's horrible!
Scalin Sep 4th 2007 12:56AM
I'm in a guild that's currently owning up Kara in two groups (about to start the third) and working on Gruul (getting him down to under 40%, then the shatters start to take the healers). We're not having a problem with the man power, just with the gear.
ZG and AQ20 had it done correctly. 3 day reset's. Might be a bit overpowered for Kara's gear level, but 7 days for what most starting guilds can clear in 2 or 3? Our schedual is Gruul, Kara, clean last bit of Kara, then more Gruul. Four nights a week.
Giving 10-mans a 5 day cooldown or so (kinda like Ony) would probably help everyone out. Gives those guilds who just run Kara more trips, and helps to gear up guilds to get past it and to the 25-man stuff. And if those 10-man guilds want to start expanding, it's easy to do Kara with 5 Kara-geared people and 5 guys in blues to gear them up.
Fai Sep 4th 2007 5:28AM
@30
*meet ten mans*
Oh, wait, something that challenges THEM? NERF NERF NERF!!!! We can't manage to organize this, it's horrible!
If you're going on about the challenges THEM you need to get some perspective. The problem is that it's NOT a challenge, it's boring with a lot of trash and fairly straightforward boss fights.
And to make it more fun, for some classes (say, all clothies with tailoring for example) it's perfectly skippable while your tanks will NEED to do it to gear up properly.
And the challenge of organising is, well,...
For you getting a kara raid together is about getting a few extra people in; for raiding guilds it's about splitting up groups that have played together for x amount of time up into tiny subgroups. If you are playing the amount of time you are when in a raid guild, you get to know the people in your guild, and be (dare I say it) friends with them. Splitting up groups in fact equals leaving your friends behind.
Who goes in group 1 and group 2 and whatnot you don't just have to take class balance into account, but also the people. No, we're not gonna put this guy in group 1 and his wife in group 2; it doesn't work that way.
So yeah, organising it is harder because deciding to leave people behind is harder than trying to get a few extra people in.
tdf Sep 4th 2007 5:31AM
I think Karazhan is a very well designed instance, the only problem with it is a little too much trash (particularly between curator and aran). The 1 week reset is fine, anything less and it would be a struggle for guilds to learn the place.
The big issue currently is that the next instance up requires more than double the number of players. It's difficult for Karazhan guilds to recruit more people when they can't offer them anything more than Kara raids in the short term (i.e. the same thing every other guild is doing). It would be ideal if there was some sort of bridging instance between Karazhan and Gruul which required 15 or so players.
jeff.bragg Sep 4th 2007 10:33AM
I don't even see why there are raid IDs. The whole thing seems a bit silly to me. So people could farm the first few bosses over and over again. If they want to take the time to do it, I don't see the harm. Not having raid IDs would solve a lot of problems.
andrea Sep 4th 2007 9:03AM
Kara is not "hard"...it's time consuming, dull, and a pain to organize. It creates more frustration than it's worth.
But, the only people who love it, and are excited about more 10mans, are those already on the "A" team. And every guild I have seen has it. The better geared more skilled group, (no surprise to see that group mostly officers), and then team "B"...new recruits, or "lesser" players, ie. your 25 man filler.
ryan Sep 4th 2007 11:41AM
once u start seroisly doing 25 mans kara becomes non-essential. so deal with it for a month until mag is down then only take those who need gear once u start getting t5 off 25 man bosses (laughable vr) u can basicly 7 man most of kara cept like f'n netherspite
Roguerhunter Sep 4th 2007 11:44AM
Okay Guys I been reading and trying to see everyones points of views... people wine like lil kids its crazy and yes I do agree there should be some restrictions and limitations to make the game fun and not easy for players to guild hop and try to pull there lil attitudes easiy...
*1st off tooo many stupid lil guilds or just making them to make a name for themselves..
*To create a Guild should cost 1000 Gold 1st off and require 25 Signatures and only lvl 17 and up could make one.
--Yes that seems unfair but look at the restructions you have placed and the grip you have over others trying to spoil the game and puts a grasp hold down on Guilds unless there serious....
*Also I have said this over and over again... "CONTRACTS" If you decide to join a Guild its for a total of 3,6 OR 12 months
Also if your in a Guild you cannot do 10 plus raid in kara, or other end game instance so that way your dedicated... Also you cannot get booted out bu 1 officer of the GM is not allowed takes 3 officers then the boot or just the GM to boot. This keeps control and law and order. just like the Military. Thats why theres controls to make ranks with limits so if the GM is not there too bad place him in one of them ranks.
*One more killer note if you decide you want to quit a Guild it comes with a penality... 1st off like I explained these contracts theres what we call an EST windo Military terms if you fall from being 10 days of renewing your contract u can G-quit but if not within them days you cannot quit and stuck. So theres a catcher your not playing by the rules because you decided to get ito a Guild then life will suck for a while...
Green Armadillo Sep 4th 2007 12:20PM
10-man raiding is a boon for guilds who have about 20 members and loose attendance requirements - you're probably going to be able to fill exactly one group, reliably, no problems. They're mostly a non-issue for 30-40+ person guilds with strict attendance requirements, which are probably going to be running 2-3 full clears in short order until they don't want anything from the zone anymore.
The issue happens when you have loose attendance requirements and 30-40+ active members. You wind up with way too many people to run one save, but if you're not compelling 75+% attendance and you try to run 2 saves with these numbers, one or the other of your groups is going to be stuck without tanks or healers (or, if you're especially unlucky, you'll be able to field one perfect group.... but prevented from doing so because it includes members of two separate saves). Typically speaking, guilds with loose attendance requirements have them because large portions of the membership can't meet stricter standards. So, the more committed members jump ship or form a new guild, i.e. drama ensues.
Razzy Sep 4th 2007 1:12PM
The issue is that they put T4 in there and 10 mans doesn't mesh evenly with 25 man raids. I think they also buffed the gear too much so everyone wants to keep doing it. Until you are hip deep in SSC people will keep looking back to KZ for gear not ahead at what is achievable.
I think KZ should be more like ZA will be, nice gear but on parallel with T4 that should be gotten from 2 extra bosses in Gruul's lair. If they made gruuls larger...
Keep the Tier items in the 25 mans and equivilant no-set bonus gear in the 10 mans.
ZA will NOT have the same number of people doing it as it will be cleared with in the first 4 hours of release and most guilds will do it once just to say they did it and never go back. Not even justice badges will be worth it.