Patch 5.3 interview with Ghostcrawler
Mystery of the Unborn Val'kyr
The latest patch 5.3 news
All of the latest Mists of Pandaria news"The Karazhan mistake"
by Mike Schramm 
Sep 3rd 2007 at 1:00PM
AFK Gamer's got a great post up about what he calls "The Karazhan Mistake." At BlizzCon, and now in Leipzeig, Blizzard has been patting themselves on the back for the 10man raid of Karazhan-- it's clearly the most popular raid in the expansion (does that have anything to do with the fact that it's the first raid most guilds do?), and so they say the 10man raid idea of theirs is the bomb. Along with the new Zul'Aman, we can expect to see more 10mans in Wrath of the Lich King.But AFK says they've learned the wrong lesson. While Karazhan is definitely popular, creating a 10man raid in the guild progression path (remember, UBRS didn't start as a 10man, and it wasn't really a progression instance) was a mistake. It's more or less where all the guild drama and frustration in the expansion has come from-- guilds with only 10 people are rare and far between, and so most guilds have to schedule and run multiple raid IDs just to get everyone through there. And now (eight months after the expansion has dropped), while most guilds have finally got Karazhan (and all that raid coordination) down pat, they're dealing with another problem: beefing back up to 25 for the rest of the raids. Blizzard's making guilds jump through all these hoops, and deal with all of this group A/B drama, and they're citing Karazhan as a success?
AFK's solution is a simple one: lower the cooldown on raid IDs. (His other solution is to have raid IDs be guildwide, but letting only 10 people in a guild run Karazhan weekly is a terrible idea.) That would more or less take the raid out of progression (in essence, turn it into UBRS), and let you go there whenever you had 10 people ready and willing, leaving the real raiding to the 25 mans.
Personally, I love Karazhan. It's a great dungeon with some cool bosses and lore, and Blizzard's right: it's how raids should be done. It's just too bad that, by creating a great 10 man in a world full of 25 man raids, they caused guilds (especially guilds just starting to raid) so much trouble.w
[ via Mystic Worlds ]
Filed under: Analysis / Opinion, Guilds, Blizzard, Raiding
Reader Comments (Page 3 of 3)
bluebottleblues Sep 4th 2007 1:28PM
I enjoyed Karazhan but I didn't like the players limit. It repeatidly bludgeoned my old guild every day because we had enough for 2 runs, but we didn't have good enough people to split them into 2...
So even though Karazhan was enjoyable, it really put alot of stress on my old guild.
Salty Sep 4th 2007 2:57PM
All of the people responding with “we clear Kara in 5-mans, but they must understand where the passive enjoyment enters the picture – after a long struggle, with active development and frustrating difficulties. This attitude is what drives away serious players and leaves your guild largely inept after a few /gquits.
[] Players who were keyed before the rest of the guild – tired of waiting, they leave for a guild who just need a couple more players. This cascades continuously, slowly filtering the most advanced (or simply the most opportunistic) players from the slower ones, eventually dooming guild runs to failure.
[] Resentment - The top 10 guildies run group 1 and plow with ease, joking easily in guild chat and vent while group 2 wipes up on trash, uneasy about that newly recruited healer or the puggy fillers. Eventually group 2 gives up, and group 1 is still looking for a few more pieces, refusing to sub-in, and bam – half the guild leaves to make their own or fill out another guild’s soon-to-be-filled roster.
[] Bad group composition or timing – a new kara group forms in guild to soak up all the players interested and able. But they have a poor class composition, and don’t do well. Eventually it’s clear that it will not work, and new recruits are brought in or non-guildies to flesh out the group, leaving legitimate and possibly veteran guildies out in the cold, who shortly /gquit or spam drama.
[] “Deadmines syndrome” as I call it. Group 1 is magnificent, a marvel, nothing short of stunning performance on a weekly basis. Tuesday night void crystals for all and time to spare for a heroic. But then Group 2 coalesces under a departed member of group 1, only to the revalation that he has taken the instance for granted and struggles to keep the pace, adapt and educate. After all, everything went so smoothly before… why can’t the healers keep up or the tanks mitigate damage? Why can’t the DPS just _be there_ and the CC never break? Where are the dispels/cleanses? Why aren’t people automagically buffing the dead? WHY ARE PEOPLE DYING? OMG SHIELD THE MAGE.
For brand new groups, it really does take synergy, talent and tolerance. It takes patience for wipe after wipe after wipe. It takes discipline and a steady pace. It takes knowing when a player just doesn’t make the cut. It takes forum discussions, weekly group consistency, class balance, helping each other develop into better players, camaraderie and familiarity to establish trustworthy accountability among group members. Run heroics with your kara group, it’s fun and helps gear your group up, shows you who is weak and maybe get some intimate insight into ways of improvement. The challenge and coordination of Karazhan often masks player skill, and the uptight nature of it prevents you from really getting to know your team. 5-man instances are a great way to see what your people are truly capable of when they can stretch their legs. Maybe one week if you find yourself banging your head against a boss or you’re missing some players, take whom you can to a heroic looking for a piece somebody needs, most kara groups, even short a few, would have the class balance on hand to be successful in any heroic.
Last and not least, Karazhan is a privilege, not a right. Too many times I have seen a person get their key hot off Medivh and demand the next available raiding spot. This is similar to “hitting level 70 is not the end game” and players should be capable of handling the more demanding heroic dungeons (especially true of healers, tanks and crowd control) before expecting an invite to Karazhan.
I don’t feel that any of these principles are elitist, these are merely some expectations any serious guild would have of their players. Your mileage may vary, and Cinderellas are obvious exceptions. You’re also a little pansy wuss who couldn’t be troubled to get a little pavement in their teeth for their epics.
Dyvina Sep 4th 2007 7:46PM
Kara blows...
Buck Sep 19th 2007 2:07AM
The 10 to 25 transition should have been made smoother - making Gruul a 15 man and Mag/SSC 20 mans.
That would have made guild expansions much easier.