Take out the trash (timers)!
by Chris Jahosky 
Sep 25th 2007 at 10:30AM
Over at Blessing of Kings, Coriel recently made the case for removing the respawn timer on trash mobs in raid instances:
"When you go into a 5-man instance, you expect to clear it, even if it is your first time going to that instance. You may wipe once or twice, but the general expectation is that you will finish that instance. In this case, an instance time limit is a good idea. If you hit the trash respawn, it's a sign that something is wrong, and perhaps it might be a better idea to try again later, maybe with a different group or after gearing up a bit more.
... In contrast, in a raid boss fight, you expect to wipe a lot. That the fight is intricate enough that learning and mastering it will take multiple hours. It took us two or three evenings to refine our strategy and master The Lurker Below, and he's generally considered an easy boss in SSC."
He makes a few more good points in the article, including the fact that for casual guilds, losing time to trash mob respawns could be better spent learning a new boss. Obviously this affects more casual raiders than hardcore ones, but I think Coriel summarizes his points well and is worth a read.
"When you go into a 5-man instance, you expect to clear it, even if it is your first time going to that instance. You may wipe once or twice, but the general expectation is that you will finish that instance. In this case, an instance time limit is a good idea. If you hit the trash respawn, it's a sign that something is wrong, and perhaps it might be a better idea to try again later, maybe with a different group or after gearing up a bit more.
... In contrast, in a raid boss fight, you expect to wipe a lot. That the fight is intricate enough that learning and mastering it will take multiple hours. It took us two or three evenings to refine our strategy and master The Lurker Below, and he's generally considered an easy boss in SSC."
He makes a few more good points in the article, including the fact that for casual guilds, losing time to trash mob respawns could be better spent learning a new boss. Obviously this affects more casual raiders than hardcore ones, but I think Coriel summarizes his points well and is worth a read.
Filed under: Analysis / Opinion, Raiding
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
jpn Sep 25th 2007 10:34AM
That is a really cool picture
Ariakhas Sep 25th 2007 10:47AM
If there is a respawn timer, it forces a raid, particularly one that is facing a boss for the first time, to work hard to get a boss down and avoid the annoyance of having to clear mobs again.
On the plus side, players get rep with a particular faction.
John Sep 25th 2007 1:26PM
The devs recently stated that the very reasons he is whining about, are the reasons trash respawn is there. If you want to whine, go back to 2.0 Trash. Current trash is easy, and mostly enjoyable, and just got nerfed again. The devs want it in there for a reason.
(lol, refining strategy on lurker below...he means teaching nubs how to get in the water).
Sylythn Sep 25th 2007 10:52AM
I also like the trash respawn because it prevents you from constantly beating your heads against the boss without stopping and thinking. Some of the best ideas for changing up strategies I've heard have come when we have to take the time to reclear the trash...it forces you to step back, take on stuff you know you can handle, and think about how to reapproach the fight ahead.
Siedre Sep 25th 2007 11:08AM
Agreed. The 2 hour timers are great for allowing a break between difficult progression raids. Having 2 hours between fairly short trash pulls to a boss motivates people to move faster to optimize their time. And then you can tailor a raid to last 4 to 4.5 hours, which is about as long as I'd want to be stuck there on a new boss night. Also, the trash in all the top 25 mans drop some extremely good gear and recipes. They've made it worth it.
robodex Sep 25th 2007 11:13AM
People who think trash respawns are a good idea have obviously never done Kael attempts.
30 minutes or so of the most brutal trash in the game, then you get an hour and a half worth of attempts on the hardest boss. With the way the Kael fight is set up, wipes usually don't happen until 10 minutes into the fight after you've progressed in it for awhile. This makes a 2-hour trash respawn seem brutal, since it usually takes at least 5 minutes between wipes to get all buffed up and ready.
Reclearing easy trash isn't that bad, but clearing trash that makes me want to ninja afk every time we do it is horrible.
Epiny Sep 25th 2007 11:14AM
Trash timers are good. It keeps the raid moving and if you do hit respawns it's probably time to log anyways.
Lenny Sep 25th 2007 11:18AM
My guild, like so many others now, are facing these 25 man raid instances for the first time simply because we have not had the numbers of quality geared individuals to even venture in till now. We are a pretty casual guild that has decided to raid since that's what we have collectively said it would be fun to do. Before even attempting to enter these raids that we have never seen we read strategy wikis, watch movies, get player's advice. I bet that a majority of other people do that now, so there is no need to learn the fight from scratch. Sure a few wipes to get the folks up to date that haven't read up on the fight, and the big part of you don't really know what will happen till you experience it. So taking out the trash is a very valid point, sure we love the trash drops we have seen so far but we are time limited individuals and when we get even more limited by game mechanics then then fun starts to fade. Not only for the raid members but for the officers that spend the time to coordinate around 25 players to get together and even attempt something like this.
Blizzard has been very receptive of player input and their commitment to a quality game that is fun will, I believe, benefit all players.
-Lenny
Jess Sep 25th 2007 11:28AM
Oh man I would so love to see the trash timer lengthened on Void reaver. It takes so long for my guild just to get there. It would be great if we could do Gruul's lair and then do a bit of trash clearing and then finish it and get to vr the second night.
Insurgence Sep 25th 2007 11:33AM
I wouldn't mind respawn timers in raid dungeons if it wasn't for the fact that Blizzard tends to have areas where there are horrible choke points. Like when you first start pulling the lava packs so that you can then fight Baron Gedon. If you fight in that tunnel it is a vicious fight and an unprepared, or in-experienced, raid group can wipe several times just on the first pull. Blizzard also has a tendency to make trash mobs freaking hard to fight.
As for the boss fights, I'd say it's pretty amazing how good a raid group can be at times, and how bad. You can do a boss several times, then trade out a few key players for one reason or another, then boom, then it's wipe after wipe until you get a sloppy and lucky kill.
Arras Sep 25th 2007 11:42AM
the timers are fine, l2chainpull
but seriously
the timers are fine
just kidding
they could be increased by a minute or two, allow for that extra wipe
though, trash pulls in KZ is where pally AoE tanking really shines :)
Argall Sep 25th 2007 11:42AM
I really like how they did it with Karazhan, with trash not respawning after you take down the associated boss.
I HATE respawns on mobs. I can see the reason but its frustrating, and it tops off a bad day of wipes. I would prefer just a few respawn if anything, like patrols but now the whole instance. Its just unfair.
Dave Sep 25th 2007 11:48AM
Hey, I've got an idea, why not just take out the trash entirely?!
Lets just put a vendor with epics at the door, and give you everything that you would have needed in the last instance too, and that way you won't have those pesky "other raids" holding you back as well!
Why not just have everyone waltz in through the front door, fight illidan, get a big purple cookie and go make blog post on your guild page showing how awesome you are?
I like the trash timers. It adds a sense of purpose to the entire thing, and makes you pace yourself or at least set a pace in general. No trash timers? Welcome to the 6 hour raid for a single boss! You'll have people paying EVEN LESS attention in "casual" guilds, people going AFK because they know they can get away with everyone waiting and all the other distractions that the 25 people involved otherwise have to clear out of their environment until the boss is down.
No, raid timers would have the exact opposite effect I think than everyone would love to have. Less pressure on performance, and you'll have the less motivated guilds seeing even less content than before. After all, wasn't it discussed here before that the only real difference between hardcore and casual is the amount of quality preparation they put into things and the focus they have while they do it? The only way for casual guilds to help themselves, is to actually start acting like they care about what they're doing and focus. Getting rid of trash timers doesn't seem like it'll affect this too much will it?
Scruffy Sep 25th 2007 12:04PM
How about... the Kara boss trash style (trash up to bosses won't respawn when boss is taken out) and time between respawns increases 10% each time they do up to a 50% increase in respawn times?
Slayblaze Sep 25th 2007 12:11PM
I'd like to see trash respawns that make more sense along the lines of SSC's Coilfang Frenzy's which all die once you boil the water, and don't respawn after Lurker dies. See, that makes sense and has a sort of logic to it. Most other trash in the game just incomprehensibly "materializes" out of thin air and pop back into existence. Huh? How did THAT happen - it makes no sense.
There should be trash on long 2-3 hour timers, I just wish Blizz would be more creative with how and why they "came back to life" after we already disposed of them once.
Arturis Sep 25th 2007 12:26PM
Mmmm purple cookie...
J0ust Sep 25th 2007 12:31PM
@12 The major difference between casuals and hardcores is the amount of time they have to spend on the game. Take Nihilum (the bleeding edge guild everyone knows); the reason they got to BT as soon as they did, is because WoW is effectively their *job*. They are *sponsored* to play it, and "beat" it. This has absolutely nothing to do with "quality preparation", Nihilum can (and did) spend DAYS on a new boss.
Raiding isn't rocket science. It isn't a black art. All it takes, is time. And a ton of it, if you ever want to see the likes of Hyjal and BT. Some people have more time than others, that is all it will ever come down to; not lack of skill, or lack of preparation or lack of performance or "serious attitude". There are characters with names like "Darkmx" and "Killadoom" and "Nastycaveman" on my server raiding Hyjal. Go figure.
Asserting that casuals lack focus, is exactly the same as asserting raiders are no-lifer jerks with nothing better to do.
I like raiding, as it happens. But I'd sooner play the game, than have it play me. Wading through trash respawns does not give a "sense of purpose", it's a time-sink instigated by Blizzard to bottleneck progression. Simple as that.
Adam Hyland Sep 26th 2007 6:05PM
Alright. I like trash timers. I like them partly for the reasons listed in the original post: that if you hit them, then you know you're not doing something right. I like them because they provide a good natural break in a 4-5 hours raid. I like them because they provide some more incentive to kill a boss that you might otherwise have wanted to skip (Aran for some guilds is harder than Prince, same with Netherspite).
I also like most trash. I like the Magtheridon trash because it clearly tests your ability to multi-tank, spread out and interrupt. If you can't do that, the trash will stress your raid, if you can, then you will breeze through. If you can't DO the trash in those instances, you shouldn't be attempting the boss. for some trash, this isn't true. The VR trash doesn't really have any test of your ability to do VR, and the SSC trash is much to generalized to be called anything but an overall DPS/Coordination check.
As for the comments about raiding just taking time. I'm tired of it. This is the standard discounting of skill and talent that gets made by ANYONE who isn't part of it as an enterprise. Your explanation for how Nihilum got to Illidan first was that they had more time than the rest of us? that's it? Just more time and the problem will be solved? How about this? Let's suggest that to do ANYTHING that is complex in nature requires an investment in time. That investment is reduced by skill, dedication, experience, and other advantages. So if I started to play wow for 50-60 hours a week, I wouldn't probably not progress as quickly through new content as someone who had all those advantages I previously listed--even though we both have invested time into WoW. If I followed your line of thought, I would say that the only thing that disinguishes tiger Woods from me on the golf course is that he is payed to play golf and can spend more time doing it.
GSH Sep 25th 2007 3:21PM
(lol, refining strategy on lurker below...he means teaching nubs how to get in the water).
Heh, pretty much.
Queuetip Sep 25th 2007 3:29PM
If you don't kill bosses after they die, why should you have to kill anything else after they die? What I don't like about the respawn times isn't the fact that it reappears mid raid. Thats just a sign you should probably take a break anyway. It is the fact that the next day you have to clear through the same shit you did the day before.
I can understand random wandering trash mobs in certain locations to prevent a clean path to the boss, but not another 30-60 min time sink where we end up wiping anyway becuase no one pays attention on trash mobs.
For Example: In between Lurker and Tidewalker, keep the Bog lord and a murloc pack or two. In between Alar and Vr, keep one of the 2 packs, and the patrolling group in VR's room. It would get everyone warmed back up from the day before, but wouldn't have to waste 30 mins from your raiding time.