The Care and Feeding of Warriors: Protection

The Care and Feeding of Warriors narrowly avoided a prophylactic joke in the title this week. Seriously, Matthew Rossi actually went to sleep chuckling about how funny it was going to be. Thankfully, when he woke up he realized he had been tired the night before and the joke was stupid, so he decided not to make it. Of course, by telling you this, he gets you to imagine all sorts of jokes that he may or may not have actually made.
We all know that changes are coming to just about every class in 2.3, and one of those changes is one that is intended to increase the solo play ability of dedicated healers. This is great news, of course, because it shows that the folks at Blizzard are interested in making sure that all specs have at least some viability for the aspects of the game that are necessary to prepare for instancing and raiding, namely farming for mats and questing for the repair money we all need without having to level another toon to 70 just to do our farming for us. That's why we checked the upcoming changes to warriors to see how they addressed solo prot warrior scaling.
Sound of a lot of crickets chirping.
Well, they nerfed mace spec. That'll help prot warriors solo and quest because... it will upset PvP warriors? No, that doesn't seem like it would help.
Devastate combines the effects of sunder armor? Well, I mean... good for tanking, but not really a tremendous boost to soloing unless the DPS of the attack is going up considerably. As it stands, devastate does half weapon damage, basically. It was briefly doing enough damage to be viable when it was changed to let it hit with both weapons if you were dual wielding (many prot warriors dual wield when trying to do damage because of the spec's increase to one handed weapon damage) but then that was changed back and they were left up soloing creek without a boat, as it were.
The tactical mastery change? Does nothing at all for or against prot warriors.
Disarm immunity gone? Well, Weapon Mastery is an arms talent. I fail to see how nerfing the top tier of an arms talent in any way helps protection warriors solo content or do daily quests. I guess I'm just blind.
Seriously, I am always for a class getting buffed as long as the buffs don't make them too powerful, and the changes to healing on gear don't strike me as overpowered. I'm not angered by the changes to healing spec soloability. I just want to know why warriors are the only class expected to so thoroughly eviscerate their own soloing capacity in order to tank.
It's not like it's a surprise. We have three tanking classes, and I believe both Paladins and Druids have in the past pointed out that they are both better multi-mob tanks than warriors because they can output more damage, and thus more threat (as their threat is much less static than warrior threat is, due to their lack of static threat-building abilities and their reliance on various forms of damage to build aggro) to more mobs than a warrior can. Indeed, the change that made Thunder Clap usable in defensive stance was an attempt to make warriors more viable on large packs in the new instances.
But the objection from warriors has been, and will most likely continue to be, that they are expected to make sacrifices to tank. A feral druid who wants to go out and solo up some mats for crafting or grind up some gold can swap on a new set of gear and go raise some hell with significantly improved DPS. A protection paladin with a few points in ret can go AoE farm like a baby mage in plate armor on lower level mobs (so that a level 70 tankadin could go farm elementals in Nagrand all the live long day if he or she wanted to) while the protection warrior can strap on his best DPS gear and still be far, far less effective at killing things than the other tanks, much less other warrior specs. Note that I'm not saying it can't be done. I've done it myself when I was specced protection: slap on my best crit gear and go out and bash things with my shield, hoping for a Shield Slam crit to get the damage up. It's not ideal, since while shield slam is a protection warrior's best damage instant (and is so lovely for tanking, believe you me) it gets most of its damage from your shield block value. And if you're in DPS gear, you probably don't have a lot of shield block value. So yes, it can be done, in much the same way that one can choose to walk uphill in a snowstorm in sandals.
Whenever I spec out of protection to do a PvP weekend or to try and make a big rep grind push by killing demons in Shadowmoon Valley for the Marks of Sargeras and Fel Armaments they drop, I feel as if a fifty pound weight has been removed from my back. My DPS goes way, way up. Mobs die so fast in comparison that I start to feel like a superhuman god burst free from the bonds of petty earth. I start doing crazy things like forcing my guildmates in the picture above to take me on runs where I tank with two weapons in zerk stance even though I know that it is wrong, wrong, wrong. Luckily, guilds exist to slap you on the back of the head and remind you why you have a shield. But the fact that there is such a giddy rush of release when you step out of protection spec means that the spec has some sort of fundamental flaw - it shouldn't feel like being loosed from Tartarus when you take a weekend off to PvP!
I'm going to quote a poster on the 2.3 warrior thread posted here this week: "I tried tanking too many pickup groups and got burnt out, I think. Warrior tanking feels like you aren't playing against the monsters who are trying to kill you. Warrior tanking is a demented contest, a race against your teammates, with you on a bicycle and them riding motorcycles, where they chivalrously agree to give you a ten yard head start." One of the two problems with protection warriors isn't their fault at all nor is it the fault of the spec, it's the fault of how warriors were originally designed to tank and how the game has changed since then. It's the fault of static threat generation. Most warrior threat moves generate their threat wholly independently of damage dealt. The result of this is that, after a warrior hits level 70, trains all his newest skills, he's basically done. He's not really going to see any significant increases to his threat as his gear gets better. He'll see improvements in his survivability, for the most part. More armor. More health. More defense to push crits and crushes down. But his threat really isn't going to scale the way everyone else will. As a rogue gets better and better weapons and gear, as a mage gets more and more damage, as the fury warrior gets more and more haste on his gear, the protection spec warrior gets less and less benefit to his threat from his gear while everyone else gets more and more threat from theirs.
Their threat scales. His doesn't. This is why you see protection spec warriors putting as many points in the spec as they do - there aren't a lot of 20/0/41 or 15/5/41 prot warriors. The main benefit of better gear is the ability to shift your spec away from Anticipation and Toughness, freeing up points to go further down the tree. I would consider this spec a minimal protection spec build with 46 points (and some of those talents were just chosen to get further up the tree - I'm actually not a big fan of improved disarm personally, although as always your mileage may vary and it is good against melee bosses if they can be disarmed) but you can see how going that far down protection really takes away a lot of options for a warrior who wants to actually kill anything. Needing talents like Defiance and Focused Rage to just keep abreast of the scaling of everyone else's damage means you yourself will not have the abilities that warriors use to deal damage. You will not have a hefty instant attack, you will not have a rage dump, you will not have abilities that increase your critical hit damage or inflict a stead DoT or send you into a flurry of attack power boosting crits.
Switching gear can only compensate so much for this essential flaw in the design of the class. Other tanks benefit from overhauls that have more recently made them viable. Their tanking methods are not so hobbled by static threat, they're not designed around tanking two year old content. Warriors as tanks have a great deal of viability due to their high survivability in the proper gear, using the pure avoidance of block, dodge and parry to totally mitigate incoming damage when fortunate, but their threat mechanic is antiquated. Changes to the class since have revealed this essential weakness - the minimal damage done by Revenge was increased in the same patch that gave us thunder clap in defensive in an attempt to raise warrior scalability both for soloing and for threat generation, and it is a nice start. But frankly, I'd like to see devastate get more damage as well for the same reason, so that a weapon upgrade helped scale a tanks threat up and so that a properly geared protection warrior could actually do some damage. When a warrior tanks an instance, his damage is usually on the bottom of the charts, usually only eclipsing the healer who isn't doing any damage at all. While I don't want to see protection as a spec offering a way to have main tank levels of armor and defense and doing anywhere near as much damage as a rogue, as it stands a prot tank could triple his DPS and still not even come to within a third of most DPS in a run.
Static threat doesn't scale, and a lack of gear scaling hobbles prot viability more than anything else when it comes to soloing and grinding. It's been pointed out many, many times now, but Blizzard seems to be intending to increase the viability of every spec in the game, giving players more options. But at present, warriors have one spec for tanking, one spec for PvP, and one spec for PvE DPS. Why shouldn't prot be viable in arenas? Why shouldn't fury warriors be decent tanks? Especially when it comes to prot, the warriors who have to give up much of the 'fun' aspects of the class, some sort of accomodation similar to that of the recent healing gear changes needs to be thought up, whether it is an overhaul to static threat or some new, better idea I am unlikely to imagine because, as I freely admit, the folks at Blizzard are much better at seeing the whole picture of the game than a dude who plays mostly warriors.
Filed under: Warrior, Analysis / Opinion, (Warrior) The Care and Feeding of Warriors






Reader Comments (Page 1 of 3)
John Sep 28th 2007 11:32AM
Wow....you are just completely wrong...
Please tell me the tanking abilities you use that dont scale with dmg? PLEASE.
O wait....its only sunder....and wait...you should only use this 5x per mob, and then stop using it.
Birde Sep 28th 2007 11:34AM
The devestate change is going to help Prot solo grinding. As it is, with fury gear I can be tops on damage during Shade of Aran by spamming devestate/ww. Using the same fury gear for my dailys on Netherwing ledge allows me to complete the quests out there. However, to help counter the 50% damage loss of devestate you need to spend several global cooldowns on sunder during which you do very little damage and will take some, esp if you have multiple mobs. Now devestate will apply sunder while doing damage that will scale up with each stack of sunder. How can you not see this as an increase. Devestate in zerker stance with good AP/Crit gear is spammable every time it is up! Warriors don't have any damage dealing spell like this in other trees. If you don't have fury gear this means nearly every global cooldown in tank gear will cause damage! Then there is the real chance that devestate is the best threat generating tool in the game now due to the lack of cooldown.
Despite the nerf to mace spec, I am hoping 2.3 is here soon just due to the devestate change.
Wulfhere Sep 28th 2007 11:37AM
@1 - Maybe you could, I don't know, LEARN TO READ? Maybe? He even lists the abilities like Revenge that scale with damage.
Jesus wept.
@2 - tops on damage on Shade using Devastate spam sounds incredibly gimmicky. It is admittedly nicely spammable, I'll give you that one.
Hollywood Ron Sep 28th 2007 11:39AM
Prot spec has taken a ton of the fun out of playing a warrior, especially when I see some shaman drop five mobs in the time it takes me to drop one. Half the time, I don't even bother with changing stances out of defensive, as it doesn't make that much of a difference.
Dave Sep 28th 2007 11:41AM
Yeah, solo prot warriors are pretty craptacular.
But I'll debate the necessity of the vast majority of the top-tier prot talents all day long. Most of them are entirely worthless, especially as your tanking gear achieves the right stats to make them mostly useless.
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=LV0cZE0zVZfVdoIMzfxs
that was my last tanking build. It wasn't awesome at solo play, but it was better than someone putting 46+ points into prot for minimally effective talents. Vitality? Please, you're getting maybe 500HP out of it and 50 str. Is that really going to matter when you're tanking? Nah. Devastate we've already established is mostly worthless. You're only marginally increasing your DPS output, but if you're tanking you've also already correctly identified the huge problem, that it doesn't MATTER how much damage you're doing, your threat output isn't affected. Do, devastate was supposed to be a sweet solo play help for full prot tanks.. but it's not. It still sucks. (and it may still suck, although I guess a wee bit of extra dps while sundering instead of just sunders will be good?). I've never found improved sheid wall to be terribly effective, since by the time you need to pop it an extra 5 seconds isn't going to un-wipe the party most of the time. Everyone in the party having an extra boost to their HP with commanding shout, or extra AP for the attackers with battle shout? Now that's what I call utility.
Basically, soloing with this build more or less requires you to battleshout all the time, and piercing howl on a regular basis to get the daze effect and make your heroic strikes worth more damage since you don't have a mortal strike. With the right gems and the right gear it's not THAT bad. It's nowhere near the speed of cleaving through things with an arms/fury warrior of course, but you should be able to tank instances well enough to get the gear that'll get you up to a %25-30 crit, and your survivability will be pretty high as well.
IMO this build is just fine for 5-man, heroics and 10-man raids. I think it could work with tweaks for bigger raids. (swap thunderclap for imp def stance at least since you'll rarely be tanking multiple mobs in a 25-man right?)
Yeah prot warriors need some help, but I guess it's basically never going to happen since this complaint has been persistent since mostly forever.
I personally gave up and leveled a mage because of it so I can keep my tank as a tank and use him in tanking situations and if I feel like melting faces I get out the mage and shred.
Steve_S Sep 28th 2007 11:42AM
Try it as a resto druid and see how pathetic soloing is. It was easier to level a warlock to kill things in 7 seconds and just send my Tree money.
Birde Sep 28th 2007 11:47AM
PROT in TBC is fun and it is a lot better than it ever was in the past. With the right gear and spec you will out threat your entire raid. Most warriors don't understand the HUGE value of shield block value (that causes your shield slams to scale by bigger hit - 2k shield slams are not hard to get at all anymore and that is more threat in one single attack than anything else in the game). Shield block RATING is useless and I see so many tanks stacking that for god knows what reason. Visit www.evilempireguild.org/guides/ if you want to see the math behind this. I do 300+ dps on Gruul with the right setup. This includes picking up Cruelty, 1H spec and Shield Mastery to scale up your damage/threat.
Spamming devestate on anything is not gimmicky and not sure how you think so. The only thing that limits this attack is the global cooldown and is intended to be spammed.....but it is only worthwhile to do so if you apply a few sunders while grinding. Your damage will be terrible if you don't do so. Allowing a tank in a 10 man fight with no threat issues to do that much damage to push past rogues and locks shows just how powerful this attack is with the right gear and buffs.
Matthew Rossi Sep 28th 2007 11:48AM
@Steve -
I'm not dismissing how hard it can be to solo or grind as a healing spec, which is why I didn't have anything negative to say about the +heal changes. I just think protection spec warriors need a bit of love (not an enormous amount, really, just a tweak in how the class works) to make it more palatable and less of a chore. Playing an MMO shouldn't feel like work.
Chris Deke Sep 28th 2007 11:49AM
Cmon, youre asking why the undeniably best MTing class in the game doesnt get free zomguber soloing as well? If you wanna be the best, you gotta give up something. I play a raiding druid tank, and I know that at the end of the day, and especially as we progress further, I am surpassed on a lot of things by warriors. All I can really do is keep increasing my HP and agi, and yawn while warriors surpass my mitigation. But you know what? I sure do have fast, powerful and efficient soloing down pat. Its a tradeoff, you know?
Heraclea Sep 28th 2007 11:52AM
Soloability was one of the main reasons why I dropped Prot and quit tanking. (The other was impatient DPS in pickup groups.)
Even specced Protection, tanking on a warrior felt like racing against motorcycles on a bicycle. If you got a really good team, the motorcycle riders agreed to give you a ten foot head start.
The enemy was not the monster, to whose downfall your own contribution was slight. The real enemy was your teammates. You had to counter the effects of their turbo DPS powers by tricking the monsters to believing you to be the larger threat, even though you usually stood right above the healer, in single digit percentages, on the damage meter.
To call this role the role of a "warrior" is so wrong as to constitute a form of false advertising.
Paladin tanking looks like fun. And pally tanks seem to have no problem just plowing into the mobs and holding their attention without fussing with tabbing through multiple targets while minding sheeps, saps, and traps.
So now I am fury. I make a really lousy tank, not because I lack the armor or weapons, but because I lack artificial threat inflation. I still don't have the solo efficiency most other DPS classes have. I don't get taken on teams, because I lack crowd control. But at least I feel like a warrior now.
MechChef Sep 28th 2007 11:54AM
Once again, I suppose it boils down to balance. Adding more DPS to a spec that can soak up so much damage walks a precarious path between balanced and overpowered. As a rogue, warriors are tough enough for me, and I accept it. This type of change would naturally frighten my little stealthy soul. The most viable solution that I can see is decreasing the respec cost. Furthermore, I'm hard pressed to imagine why any of us would mind being able to respec our own characters for cheaper. In my situation, combat can be a pretty decent spec for farming, but I lose out on the stealthy aspects when I'm on farming on a combat-raid build. Then again, I suppose I should feel lucky that I my raiding spec still has farming viability.
To conclude, I doubt there's a simple soultion that'll please everyone by modifying the talent trees and abilities.
Amardeep Bhullar Sep 28th 2007 12:04PM
sorry but all this article is wrong. I have tanked with warrior and paladin, and without a shadow of a doubt paladin has it alot harder in every aspect except the few cases where we run it low health fast hitting highly populated mobs. Which are very rare in outland, its all high health casters everywhere. pleas try farming primals as a paladin the you cam c9om,met on hard it to solo as a tank. With a warrior i found using a two hander and dps gears is much better than trying to dual wield. Heroic strike crit and victory rush acn do 1000-1200 damage with nice gear at level 70, the paladin has nothing like that, and no tanakdin takes any of the damage stuff from ret (not that anything there would help except maybe seal of command, which is no where near as good as heroic strike spam).
Then lest talk about elite quests , here warrior and paladin are about equal but if that elite can cast spells, which lest face it alot of them do and itrs nearly always 2000damage shadow bolts, the warrior wipes teh floor with paladin. Then there is the fel reavers of hellfire, with tons of block value the warrior tank can solo thos etoo, the paldin will find it very hard to block as much damage as warrior.
Druids are slightly better of than warrior is soloing but once again the drop from any caster type mob that alos has high health.
get yourself a decent two hander and the try again, a prot warrior cant dps good with dual wielding.
Jack Spicer Sep 28th 2007 12:38PM
I know that at Blizzcon it was announced that changes were coming to make it easier to solo as a healer, was there a similar announcement for Protection specc'ed warriors? Because this entire post is entirely moot if no such comment was ever made by Blizzard.
Corrodias Sep 28th 2007 12:14PM
"Druids are slightly better of than warrior is soloing but once again the drop from any caster type mob that alos has high health."
A druid tank is feral, and feral druids do their soloing in cat form, usually.
Also, is it just me, or does adding +damage to healing gear NOT sound like it will suddenly make healers able to solo things? Is there some reason they couldn't carry a set of +damage gear?
Nyx Sep 28th 2007 12:24PM
@2: If you, as a Prot warrior, are tops on DPS during Shade of Aran, may I suggest you fire the [Advanced Target Dummy] you're bringing as a hunter to Karazhan and actually find one that knows how to equip a ranged weapon? Your rogues should probably stop using their skinning knives on that fight too, for that matter.
Your ridiculous claims notwithstanding... fighting a non-aggro, static fight with a boss could, possibly, be just a touch different than running around Shadowmoon soloing? Just a little? I mean, far be it from me to say that your "solution" is a load of rancid compost, but... no, it's a load of rancid compost. And then you go on to say that Shield Block is useless? I weep for your guild, I really do - but I guess every guild has to have the twelve-year-old that's convinced one-button tanking is teh wave of teh futcher!!!11!!
@12: Please stick to commenting about actual warriors, not the fantasy league ones you're running in your mind. Your entire post is "If they take high DPS gear and weapons, they'll be just as good as Fury!" Um, if they take DPS gear... they're not Prot.
By the way, have you ever tried healing through those 2k shadowbolts with a 5 second cast? Just a thought.
Birde Sep 28th 2007 12:35PM
@14 Shield block value (SBV) and shield block rating (SBR) are far two differnt things. You need to understand the combat table and why SBR doesn't matter. SBV is what causes your shield slam to do more damage. For a better explanation read:
http://evilempireguild.org/guides/block.php
and
http://evilempireguild.org/guides/attacks.php
Prot warriors with fury gear on Aran in the melee dps group will do a ton of damage, esp if they are there with a shammy. My DPS do quite fine as we have made progress in both SSC and TK. Try it out before you knock it and I will also bring a WWS spreadsheet to prove it to you after our next lockout. I'll bring math and proof, you can continue to make inflamatory posts providing nothing but insults.
Solo in SMV as prot for me is no worry at all. I can do it in tank gear or fury gear with no issues and the changes in 2.3 will only make solo prot grinding that much better. Think about it: A 9 rage spammable (with the right build) attack that has stacking armor penetration built into it that scales with better weapons and stats.
Xonate Sep 28th 2007 12:34PM
This article makes me sad on so many levels. Because it's true. I have the sudden desire to respec my warrior to arms/fury... However, as the guild's main tank, I can sense some problems coming with that. And besides, I enjoy tanking. But farming mats or anything else that involves soloing? I don't think so.
Also, besides from my oh-so-wonderful prot warrior, I'm running a resto shaman with a pally tank friend of mine. Any of the 70 5-man instances are a joke with a pally tank. I know warriors who are afraid to tank instances like Shattered Halls without at least 3 crowd control, because they just can't tank it all. However, with my pally tank buddeh, we just run in with no CC whatsoever and she just grabs them all easily. Also, even in my DPS gear (mostly Kara gear at this point... tanking gear never drops when my tank is in there. Just shaman healing gear. Which coincidentally never drops when my shaman is in there. That's when the tanking gear drops... *rolls his eyes*.) she still beats me in DPS, in her prot gear! I love my pally tanks, and am really starting to despise warrior tanks, despite the fact that my main is one...
So yes, making prot warriors able to actually solo effectively would be nice.
@14. Your honesty makes me laugh. *claps*
Kalyke Sep 28th 2007 12:53PM
A few random points from my perspective as a Warrior who is a guild MT and swaps between Prot and PvP spec 2-3 times a week.
1. Prot is viable for solo'ing in TBC much more than it ever was. Stack Shield Block Value (SBV), crit and STR (for AP, Vitality makes STR > AP). This method works quite well, although slower than Arms/Fury specs it affords amazing survivability. The other viable option is DW Devastate spamming but the need for Sunder to increase damage make it a bit awkward you either waste GCDs on Sunder first or and get a few nice Devastates in before the mob dies or do crappy Devastates for a while and the mob dies. The Devastate change will boost the effectiveness of DW Devastate spam solo'ing considerably.
2. Threat should not be an issue for Prot Warriors. If you are dealing with trash where DPS doesn't hold back as much you should be using gear that is more optimized for threat generation, not your best mitigation gear. Make sure you have at least 2-3% +hit and stack up on Shield Block Value with a little crit and str/ap mixed in. If you are using your full on tanking gear, especially if you have a lot of avoidance in your gear you're going to be rage starved and have a miserable time holding aggro. Save the all-out tank gear for bosses where it counts.
I can't say what class/spec has it the worst for solo'ing but I don't think it is Protection Warriors. We aren't great but I have a 70 Druid too who I leveled Feral but am gearing up to be a Resto a Druid. I tried solo'ing as Resto Druid and it was unbelievable. Granted my Warrior's gear is far better and I know how to play the Warrior class more than a Druid, especially a Resto Druid since I leveled Feral but I'd rather gouge my eyes out than solo as Resto on my Druid. Prot Warriors solo capabilities are far better than that of a full (not Dreamstate spec) Resto Druid.
CthulhuCalling Sep 28th 2007 1:07PM
I've been tanking for 2+ years now...
I think the prot tree needs some love, as dps and threat from all the other classes have scaled well off the scale while Warrior threat output still relies on static values, except for a couple of moves.
Casters stack +spell crit and get massive +damage/healing bonuses, our threat output scales whenever we get a new sword. Or we can sacrifice a lot of stamina so we can try to maximize shield slam hits, and spend a lot of time as a ghost.
In addition, as I'm getting better and better gear, its becoming more difficult for me to tank anything outside of a raid instances. Even in my DPS gear, I can't do normal instances anymore (for the guildies) unless I actually remove armor, and then my DPS is gimped because I lose bonuses. Rage generation is getting to be a problem, even with Anger Management, Focused Rage, and reduced costs for Sunder and Heroic strike.
I'm afraid that Warriors aren't scaling terribly well at this point, and we may go back soon to the Dark Times where PUGs are turning away warrior tanks for druids.
John Sep 28th 2007 1:16PM
Seriously, what are you guys talking about. Except for SA(which is removed in the patch). ALL warrior threat moves scale with gear. What is it that makes you all so incredibly dense? You are all just a bunch of whiners, and these articles really shouldnt be written by complete nubs who are worried about tanking 5 mans.
@2 You dumb bastard. They ALLLLLLLl scale with gear.