The pros and cons of set loot tables
by Mike Schramm 
Oct 3rd 2007 at 8:02PM
Hardcore Casual has a short but interesting piece up comparing EVE's loot system to that of WoW and EQ. WoW uses what's called a fixed loot table system, which means that everything you kill in game has a set list of loot that drops from it, in varying degrees. If you kill Illidan, you know exactly what he might drop, even if you don't know exactly which piece on that list will drop. But EVE Online apparently uses a much more random loot system-- when you loot, you might get anything.A better comparison (especially for Blizzard fans) might be Diablo, where almost anything can drop almost anywhere. The problem with a random loot system like this, however, is exactly what I ran into in Titan Quest (a pretty darn good Diablo clone): halfway through the game, a great item will randomly drop, and you'll get a thrill from getting a sweet weapon. However, because you randomly hit it big, you'll have the problem of nothing better ever dropping again, and the game is pretty much over. Diablo fixed this by having separate areas to go through (and I believe TQ got patched in the expansion to fix this a little bit). But in WoW, you don't have that problem-- every new instance you go into will have better gear than the one before it, guaranteed. You can look it up on WoW Wiki, or look at the loot lists, and know exactly what's there.
In fact, some say WoW's loot tables are too random-- I always see Paladin loot drop whenever there's no Paladin in the group. But it does take a little bit of fun out of the game world when everyone is huddled around the Curator saying "cmon staff, cmon staff, cmon staff!" Giving us a boss or two where the loot is totally and completely random (out of almost any item in the game) could actually be fun.
Filed under: Items, Analysis / Opinion, Blizzard, Instances, Raiding, Bosses
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
Argent Oct 3rd 2007 8:22PM
speak for yourself. i think that's a terrible idea for the exact reasons you point out -- it devalues progression utterly and completely.
there are things blizz could do tho perhaps spruce up loot a little, such as having a sort of 'make a wish' token from some bosses -- you get the token, you turn it in somewhere and it turns into one item from the bosses loot table of your choice. but putting all loot on a random global drop table? pass.
Anon Oct 3rd 2007 8:35PM
An extention of that idea...rarely, anywhere, special "coins" for a "machine" that will produce a random item. Put the machines in Goblin cities. It seems like a Goblin thing. These coins would be BoP so you can't pay money for them...some critters might have a higher chance of dropping them.
So you get your random chance here. You could end up getting items exclusive to this method...you could pop out Aetish or you could get a "Steamy Romance Novel." You could end up getting special trinkets, bags, or some interesting things that are just worth gold.
Magnetite Oct 3rd 2007 8:40PM
@1 I suppose that they already have this with the tier tokens and the Badges of Justice - which are being introduced into Kara and Zul'Aman in the next patch.
We also have the random world drops - that Truestrike Ring that dropped for me the other day was nice and unexpected. Just a pity that my addon that shows me what loot drops from mobs taunts me every time I target a Nethermine Flayer!
Fletch Oct 3rd 2007 9:09PM
The other problem with a completely random loot table is that there's no reward for taking on harder bosses: people will just farm the quickest/easiest boss that they can possibly get good loot from. Pindleskin, anyone?
Medros Oct 3rd 2007 9:31PM
I can just see a boss at Sunwell Plateau dropping a few silver and 1 linen cloth. Now that would be a way to win over the playerbase.
sizzle Oct 3rd 2007 9:32PM
With close to a 1,000 Pindleskin runs, you are not allowed to mention that name again.
Andelorn Oct 4th 2007 12:15AM
Like... World Drops?
Skrilla Oct 4th 2007 1:08AM
I think the loot system could be tweaked. I don't think it should be totally random, aside from epic world drops. Boss loot could use a little tweaking. Our guild has farmed kara for months, several players exalted many times over and we have yet to get a single enchant, but we have a huge stockpile of void crystals. There are also several items we have NEVER seen drop, staff from Curator being one of them :)
The addition of badge drops (and hopefully new items to purchase aside from PVP trinkets) will hopefully help some people out that have been unlucky with the random drops.
Dave Oct 4th 2007 1:37AM
I think your idea is horrible as-is, but here's a concept I think everyone could get behind:
Every boss has a combination of both guaranteed loot, and random loot. Your set piece token (generic, non-specific token but lets have it be class restricted to 2-3 classes like they are now) drops from specific bosses every single time. Get enough of these specific tokens in certain combinations (kinda like the AQ/Naxx turnins, not just a single piece == specific loot piece) of your choosing and you can mix/match your set pieces as you wish. Minor bosses drop the tokens you need in larger quantities, major bosses drop the major tokens you need a single from to redeem for your piece. (much like it is now, but you get something from minor bosses more than random non-set piece loot and the set piece tokens are NON specific and if you want to get your legs first, you can. If you'd rather get the chest first, knock your socks off. After you've run the instance lets say 9-12 times your entire guild should almost without exception have your entire set if that was your goal. (maybe tune it to less times, or give the end boss more tokens or have the end boss be the ONLY major token giver...) I think one of the major complaints is that there are always a few people who never got their complete set, despite having run MC/BWL/Naxx sooooooo many times. Token drops are a good start, but I think badges have it a little better and the two could be combined to be a badge/token combo that gives entire guilds a chance to progress evenly, and doesn't let random unfortunatness screw it all up. (as well as eliminates DKP and loot drama in theory!)
Then, for the "other" drop per boss, just have a generic loot table for the entire instance and let it be a random accessory except for legendary junk which of course should be fairly specific. (more emphasis on weapons, rings, trinkets and the other non-set piece slots right?) As long as people are getting their sets, I think the rest of the stuff wouldn't be too bad to be totally random on a per-instance basis. (but %100 random world drop style is a terrible idea)
Carlsberg Oct 4th 2007 2:25AM
why not just allow badges of justice to be used to purchase Tier Gear aswell as usual Badges of Justice items. Who wants the FR gear anyways
Beefmonger Oct 4th 2007 2:30AM
It'd be fun if random stuff dropped, but only in an AV kind of way.
If you just hit 70 as a, I dunno, mage or something, you dont want to spend 3 hours in a Shadowlabs PuG and get *GASP* a Sharp Stilletto off of Murmur.
However, if, say, you killed a Squirrel, and it dropped "Small Magical Acorn", and on use, it summoned a dancing squirrel, that would be awesome.
A totally random loot system is best utilized as a way to make silly things happen.
Like, if every time you killed a skunk in Terokkar there was a 5% chance of you gaining the Stanky debuff...
Dryssa Oct 4th 2007 3:08AM
So basically you're asking for a boss (requiring at least 10 people to kill, mind you) that has a loot table with hundreds of items on it?
I'd rather have a 1/10 chance of getting an item I'd wand than a 1/1000, in my opinion.
LeX Oct 4th 2007 3:48AM
I had Windforce drop for me after 2000 pindle runs so im all for it!
Thorn Oct 4th 2007 4:00AM
The only way random tables would work for bosses would be if they complemented a regular loot table (keep progression going), or they were BoE drops instead of BoP (but that would really change progression, altho not necessarily for the worse).
It could also work for heroic dungeons, since they're all for 70s anyway. But then it would be nice to have class-specific random tables, so pally gear doesn't show for a group without a pally.
wachinayn Oct 4th 2007 5:13AM
You are forgetting the fact that the EVE loot is of a completely different nature of the WoW loot.
Necromancer Oct 4th 2007 7:53AM
I think that wow should have an intuitive loot system. This would mean no more D/Eing of things no-one can use. (unless it's a shard run) Basically, when you enter an instance the game creates a loot table for that instance off the types of classes attending. This means that only loot that can be used by those attending the run will drop. No more plate drops when no-one is attending. No more wand drops when no caster is attending..
The loot tables is sorted by 1: weapons/accessories and 2: armor for the types that can be used by those attending. The game rolls to choose the table for the boss item then rolls for the loot in that table. It rolls again if it is a boss with more than one piece of loot.
To improve it further it could increase the chance of certain drops by number members on a run with a type of armor. Eg: If it's a 10 man and 5 people attending are wearing plate then there is a 50% chance that if it the armor table, that a piece of plate armor will drop.
It could be improved even further but this basic change, I believe would solve a lot of our multiple runs of boredom to get a set piece only to have it drop something useless to all..
Vestras Oct 4th 2007 8:38AM
I used to play EVE and trust me, its nothing like WoW and that's a good thing for WoW. EVE's loot is insanly random, but that in and of itself is not the problem. What is a problem is the absurd scaling of costs and that if you get ganked, everything you had is gone, and must be replaced from scratch using the low-ball Insurance pay offs. Imagine if you lost all your Tier 5 gear every time you died and had to get a new set or purchase the next best thing. That's why I quit the game. Realism only goes so far in gaming...So you get a chance to get a blue/purple drop off any enemy in the game, but everything else drops BC greys. Covers a repair bill, but it's not gonna get you an epic flying mount, know what I mean?
As for WoW, intuitive loot would be very nice, I spent 8 runs in Sethekk Halls at 70 just to get some boots off that first frickin boss. Finally did yesterday in fact. The trouble currently is that there is little to no insentive to re-run many of these instances if all you need is 1 piece of loot that will never drop. Too many instances stop giving rep too early, and unless you have an enchanter in the group, the other trash drops are not worth much to anyone. Maybe some kind of Auto-Shard gimic could work. No one wants a piece of loot, no enchanters, BAM, you get something useful at least automaicly.
Chriasas Oct 4th 2007 8:55AM
I do wish that there was some kind of calculation for loot in terms of party composition. I shard way too often for my taste, especially when we're doing instances for set pieces, be it Dungeon 3,4, or Tier 4. I'd like to at least see a set piece drop for someone in the group, even if they have that piece.
Todd Oct 4th 2007 9:03AM
"C'mon staff!"
You will hear me chant this at the Curator's corpse. Of course, still to this day, the staff has never dropped.
Kyp Oct 4th 2007 9:33AM
Half the fun of the game is knowing what loot drops where. Then you have a goal; a nice short term goal to go after. Then when you finally get that drop (like the caster belt in Blood Furnace = 19 runs) it is a moment of beauty. Without knowing where to go, you'd just be wandering around aimlessly.
Side note: Took down the Curator for the first time last night. First drop... the staff. *ducks* I didn't realize how rare of a drop it was.