Shadowstep: Do rogues need more threat reduction?
by David Bowers 
Oct 4th 2007 at 3:03PM
But the 5000-gold question is: Why? As you can see, rogues are buffed up with threat-reduction options already. Is Blizzard blind to the actual needs of the rogue class? Bornakk shadowsteps into the thread to point out, basically, that we ought not to look a gift horse in the mouth: "Rogues with Shadowstep will probably be attacking mobs at some point and this will help them use the ability and not pull aggro."
The problem here, as I see it, is that players sometimes assume that devs are handing out some abilities and buffs at the expense of others. A player sees a reduction in threat gained after using Shadowstep, for example, and thinks that the devs are opting to put that in rather than look at the class's real problems and get around to fixing them. In reality, I believe, the devs take their time with the small changes, and wait and wait for the big ones; they do a lot of internal testing to make sure that they don't mess up the class even more by trying to apply a "fix" to whatever problem is presented to them. If there are going to be sweeping changes that revolutionize the class, they'll either come bit-by-bit, or else they'll coincide with the release of an expansion, which is really the only time when huge changes make sense.
Personally, I'm all for more threat reduction, but it's really not that big an issue for me. I'm more excited about being able to teleport about out of stealth as well as in. This and other changes coming up for rogues might actually make me go back to playing my rogue alt again.
Filed under: Rogue, Analysis / Opinion, Forums
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
Evil M Oct 4th 2007 3:11PM
I have to admit, I'm not entirely sure what a sub rogue (the traditionally PvP spec) is interested in threat reduction.
But, the fact that it can be used out of stealth will definitely help against kiting in arenas.
Trinh Oct 4th 2007 3:19PM
15 second teleport is pretty much warrior status even if you have to be 41 subtlety. Don't know how the dps will be but this will help in 5v5.
Adaroit Oct 4th 2007 3:20PM
Ok, maybe it's just me, but last time I checked Shadowstep is in the subtlety tree. And as far as I know, no self respecting rogue ever specs subtlety for PvE. So, since subtlety is more of a pvp spec, who the f**k is this threat reduction supposed to work on?
Yeah, the devs work on classes bit by bit, but this one is just scratch your head and go whu? type of quizzical.
Basic Oct 4th 2007 3:28PM
It's the end of the world! They're buffing rogues!
This is a PvE buff for a tree that does very poorly in PvE... no big deal. I'm glad to see it get some love.
Sonburn Oct 4th 2007 3:30PM
How about they fix things current abilities, like Vanish being broken, before implementing other useless benefits?
Sonburn Oct 4th 2007 3:31PM
fix other*
Erika Oct 4th 2007 3:31PM
Well i happen to be one of those non self respecting rogues. I have sub spec for pve and just hit 70 last week. I love being able to kill a mob starting out with a premed shadowstep 2500 damage ambush ss then evis for a good 2k and it has a good chance of being very close to dead if not already. I haven't played combat or assassination cause i am lazy. Dont bash on something before you try it. Its really fun if there is a mob on the other side of a ledge that needs to die.
smuglife Oct 4th 2007 3:53PM
I assume the devs thinking is something like this. For PVE the subtlety tree is currently nigh on useless, except perhaps in non-heroic five mans. (Of course some good players can get by with the spec, but those same players could double or triple their damage output with a more popular build).
So they think that subtlety needs some way of making it viable in PVE. A key problem with the build is that a number of the talents tend toward increasing initial burst damage, which is why it is so attractive to level solo with (huge crit ambushes are, in addition, fun). But when raiding or even in a 5man, the huge crit ambush that you built your spec around is usually going to instantly pull aggro and get you killed or your tank angry, or both.
So they implement a threat reduction ability to counteract this particular problem. Unforunately, the central problem with the subtlety tree isn't its initial aggro generation (though this IS a problem too) it is the lack of sustained damage.
I guess they are starting to improve the tree, but this seems like a change that should have been implemented after they made the tree more raid viable, as it really doesn't matter until they do so because no one will really be raiding in any serious way with a subtlety build (with, again, those rare exceptions that somehow manage to pull it off).
That's my 5 cents anyway.
rulyblue Oct 4th 2007 4:02PM
Why ask if the rogue needs more theat reduction? Wy not ask the question: Is the tank gaining enough threat in the first place? As a mage it is quite often that I go on par in threat with the tank, go completely invisible and then catch up again before a boss (that takes more than 6 min to kill) is dead.
Another important idea had been mentioned before, with respect the the subtlety tree itself. Many rogues do not spec deep into this tree unless they plan on invading Ironforge or the Undercity.
But my knowledge of the rogue is shoddy at best.
~Toodles
Doc Oct 4th 2007 4:00PM
@7: Though big numbers are always fun, the biggest problem with that is if you are fighting a boss. Doing 5k damage in 3 moves at the start of a boss pull is a surefire way to die very fast. And while the reduced threat will be useful for trash pulls since trash will die quickly, the sub tree overall does not provide the long term and sustained damage output that combat or even assassination can accomplish.
rick gregory Oct 4th 2007 4:04PM
Well, the other thing is that this change probably has context that we don't currently see, i.e. other class changes in 2.x and class changes with the 10 additional points we'll get in WotLK. They may want to roll this out now to see how it works and if there are any issues that arise... then we'll see another change.... then another...
stapleboy Oct 4th 2007 4:13PM
Has Blizzard backpedaled on the suggested change in cooldown from 15 seconds to 40? If not I don't see how the article could have failed to mention it. We could adjust to opening fights without Shadowstep so we've got another way to escape the inevitable snare, but I'd rather Blizz leave it alone. As it stands the changes look like a PvE buff and a PvP nerf... to an ability buried in a PvP tree.
@ Erika: Reduced threat does nothing for the solo PvE you're describing; what other comments are pointing out is that both Combat and Assassination are better raiding trees. I agree with you that Subtlety is fun for PvE, but I wouldn't join a raiding guild with my Subtlety rogue and expect a spot.
J Oct 4th 2007 4:13PM
@7
Who says the people that are bashing ShS haven't tried it? I have definitely tried it... and it is indeed garbage. It's commonly called lolstep for a reason. Any rogue worth anything knows that ShS is not superior in ANY aspect of the game. Solo pve, BGs, raiding, arena; it's horrible for all of them.
MechChef Oct 4th 2007 4:54PM
It's not a rogue buff, it's a buff for the other 4 people who are unlucky enough to be instanced with the shadow-step rogue.
fwiw, I've tried it briefly, but have been more happy with the pve and pvp utility of mutilate/sub for general play, and combat daggers for raiding.
shoots18 Oct 4th 2007 4:30PM
"Do you mean the amazing change to Shadowstep so that it can now be used at any time, not only while stealthed? In addition, after use of Shadowstep threat caused by the next Ambush, Garrote or Backstab will be reduced by 50%. The cooldown will however be increased to 40 seconds.
Also on the Subtlety front is a change to Dirty Deeds so that it will also be increasing damage of special attacks by 10/20% against targets that are below 35% health.
We're also taking a look at bumping up Hemorrhage a bit, but no details yet on what that may be."(Drysc)
Clearly they are looking to fix the damage of the subtlety tree and make it a viable PVE option.
Minxette, Firetree Oct 4th 2007 4:55PM
Anesthetic Poison doesn't rid you of threat - it is just a poison that in itself has no threat. Blizzard nerfed this early on to change its behaviour.
I still think it is a crazy decision. Sub is not an incredibly viable tree for raiding and doesnt create enough dps to need to reduce threat. The only reason that I see that Blizz wanted to introduce this is to begin some more radical changes in the sub tree to make it dps viable.
Jack Kelly Oct 4th 2007 6:10PM
I wonder what the font is on WoWHead? That tooltip font would look great in-game.
npm Oct 4th 2007 6:58PM
This change has me puzzled. First of all, most rogues whether subtlety spec'd or not attack with a large opener like ambush generally. So why only the subtlety tree? It doesn't really accomplish much of anything IMHO. Rogues definitely need some help in PVP, especially the Arena and it would be great to see the PVP specs play better in the PVE world and visa versa. But this change is nonsense, doesn't really help with rogue issues.
My guess is they were grasping at straws.
Angelus Oct 4th 2007 7:09PM
@13 "J" you tried to play a shadow step rogue for two minutes and you sucked like your mom.
my2cents Oct 4th 2007 8:27PM
Blizzard is apparently trying to make sub a more pve-viable spec. As for whether or not rogues need more threat reduction:
Overall, no. However if you're fairly well geared for an instance/raid, opening with an ambush can generate significantly more threat than you'd want to generate so early in a fight...So being able to use shadowstep to reduce the threat generated by your opening move is a great idea imo, and will allow sub rogues to start dpsing sooner, which gives them a few seconds extra to dps compared to a combat rogue. Might help fill the pve dps gap between combat and sub a little bit and I think that's great. Is it an amazing buff to sub rogues? No. But it's one of many small steps they're taking in 2.3 toward making sub rogues better at PvE.
So before everyone starts ranting about Blizz not understanding what rogues need, perhaps you should ask yourself if *you* know what rogues need.;)